the meaning of Baptism

[user1234]

One LORD, The Lord Jesus Christ, One FAITH, The Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, The True Saving Faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, One BAPTISM, The Baptism into the Faith of the Lord Jesus Christ...by Faith.

We are saved by God's grace thru FAITH, being spiritually BAPTISED IN, by FAITH.
Water-baptism is a testament to that salvation already possessed by FAITH.
It is FAITH that saves, not water-works, or any other kind of works.

 

[Lamb]

One LORD, The Lord Jesus Christ, One FAITH, The Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, The True Saving Faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, One BAPTISM, The Baptism into the Faith of the Lord Jesus Christ...by Faith.

We are saved by God's grace thru FAITH, being spiritually BAPTISED IN, by FAITH.
Water-baptism is a testament to that salvation already possessed by FAITH.
It is FAITH that saves, not water-works, or any other kind of works.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is given in baptism. Faith comes by the word of God so we can believe. Isn't the gospel preached during your baptism? It is in EVERY church where a baby is being baptized.

 

[Imalive]

Well praise the Lord. One person changed his mind about baptism. We had a prayer meeting today w church and I prayed God would show him. After the service waiting for the bus my son says: mom! Dad says I may get baptized now!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Baptism means being born from above through water and the Spirit that is what Jesus said. And Paul says Baptism means being united with Christ in his death and resurrection whereby the faithful die to sin and rise to new life in justice (justification). Paul also says that baptism is the washing of regeneration by water and the Spirit. Peter says that we are saved by baptism. So the meaning of baptism is not too hard to grasp because the holy scriptures teach us what baptism means and that there is one baptism not many as Ephesians 4:5 says.

 

[Albion]

The gift of the Holy Spirit is given in baptism. Faith comes by the word of God so we can believe. Isn't the gospel preached during your baptism? It is in EVERY church where a baby is being baptized.

As we see, the argument against infant baptism depends on believing that 1) the HS comes like a gift upon a person by baptism, or else 2) faith is a requirement for baptism or 3) you get faith as a result of being baptized or 4) everyone has to receive two baptisms. If any of these is the case, the evidence should be clear cut...but it's not.

 

[Josiah]

As we see, the argument against infant baptism depends on believing that 1) the HS comes like a gift upon a person by baptism, or else 2) faith is a requirement for baptism or 3) you get faith as a result of being baptized or 4) everyone has to receive two baptisms. If any of these is the case, the evidence should be clear cut...but it's not.

Good post....


There always seems to be two DIFFERENT issues whenever Baptism is discussed:


1. Limitations/Prohibitions. The "anti-INFANT Baptism" and "CREDO-Baptism" crowds. They "see" very, very critical prohibitions on the Great Commission (well, usually just one part of it - baptize). IMO, it is quickly exposed that all these prohibitions of which they speak are entirely absent from Scripture (and from anything or anyone prior to the 16th Century Anabaptists of which many Evangelicals are now heirs). There are NO age, gender, nationality or creedal mandates. And often the arguments used here (especially the "Ignore what the Bible says and DO or DON'T only according to examples that we see in the Bible) is very dangerous and one they themselves don't believe or follow. This is the issue that gets most of the attention (as we see in the 55 pages here.


2. Effect. What - if anything - can be the result of this "Go.... Baptize..... Teach?" Some (as in this thread) have argued this is all a total waste of time, of ZERO spiritual value. Odd (to me) Jesus would make this His Great Commission to the Church.... it would be SO important in the Book of Acts.... so critical in the Early Church..... yet Jesus is commanding something that is a "waste of time" and "of no value." The problem, however, is that there is only one verse that speaks to the Baptize and Teach parts, and neither is without controversy: "Baptism now saves you" and "Faith comes by hearing." But there is no verse that says, "Teaching is a waste of time" or "Baptism is of no value or consequence." Those who argue that Baptism DOES something have little to go on.... those who so dogmatically and passionately insist it's a total waste of time have nothing to go on. IMO, this often comes down to monergism vs. synergism - whether people see Christianity as hoops we gotta jump through to bless God ("Ordinances") OR as gifts God grants to us bless us? It is grace/mercy/gifts OR works/merits/hoops? The premise will determine whether God can use going and baptizing and teaching to give/bless OR if must be able to do our part (after all, as is CONSTANTLY and foundationally pointed out, babies can't do much)? Monergists, generally, have no problem with the idea that God can use "Means of Grace" and give faith to a baby (as with John the Baptist)..... synergists will have grave problems with this unless the receiver is at least able to do his/her part in salvation.


These are separate issues. But for 1500 years, all Christians held that there are no prohibitions to Baptism and that Baptism does something for the receiver. That's still the position of the vast, vast majority of Christians today. But the Anabaptists in the 16th Century introduced the idea of baptism as an Ordinance, of little or no value or effect, and that there are many prohibitions as to who may be given baptism. They are still a small majority of Christians but vocal.



Pax Christi



- Josiah

 

[Imalive]

Good post....


There always seems to be two DIFFERENT issues whenever Baptism is discussed:


1. Limitations/Prohibitions. The "anti-INFANT Baptism" and "CREDO-Baptism" crowds. They "see" very, very critical prohibitions on the Great Commission (well, usually just one part of it - baptize). IMO, it is quickly exposed that all these prohibitions of which they speak are entirely absent from Scripture (and from anything or anyone prior to the 16th Century Anabaptists of which many Evangelicals are now heirs). There are NO age, gender, nationality or creedal mandates. And often the arguments used here (especially the "Ignore what the Bible says and DO or DON'T only according to examples that we see in the Bible) is very dangerous and one they themselves don't believe or follow. This is the issue that gets most of the attention (as we see in the 55 pages here.


2. Effect. What - if anything - can be the result of this "Go.... Baptize..... Teach?" Some (as in this thread) have argued this is all a total waste of time, of ZERO spiritual value. Odd (to me) Jesus would make this His Great Commission to the Church.... it would be SO important in the Book of Acts.... so critical in the Early Church..... yet Jesus is commanding something that is a "waste of time" and "of no value." The problem, however, is that there is only one verse that speaks to the Baptize and Teach parts, and neither is without controversy: "Baptism now saves you" and "Faith comes by hearing." But there is no verse that says, "Teaching is a waste of time" or "Baptism is of no value or consequence." Those who argue that Baptism DOES something have little to go on.... those who so dogmatically and passionately insist it's a total waste of time have nothing to go on. IMO, this often comes down to monergism vs. synergism - whether people see Christianity as hoops we gotta jump through to bless God ("Ordinances") OR as gifts God grants to us bless us? It is grace/mercy/gifts OR works/merits/hoops? The premise will determine whether God can use going and baptizing and teaching to give/bless OR if must be able to do our part (after all, as is CONSTANTLY and foundationally pointed out, babies can't do much)? Monergists, generally, have no problem with the idea that God can use "Means of Grace" and give faith to a baby (as with John the Baptist)..... synergists will have grave problems with this unless the receiver is at least able to do his/her part in salvation.


These are separate issues. But for 1500 years, all Christians held that there are no prohibitions to Baptism and that Baptism does something for the receiver. That's still the position of the vast, vast majority of Christians today. But the Anabaptists in the 16th Century introduced the idea of baptism as an Ordinance, of little or no value or effect, and that there are many prohibitions as to who may be given baptism. They are still a small majority of Christians but vocal.



Pax Christi



- Josiah

No prohibitions? So atheists who dont repent can be baptized? I dont think so. Some churches dont even baptize a baby if the parents dont believe.

 

[Josiah]

There always seems to be two DIFFERENT issues whenever Baptism is discussed:


1. Limitations/Prohibitions. The "anti-INFANT Baptism" and "CREDO-Baptism" crowds. They "see" very, very critical prohibitions on the Great Commission (well, usually just one part of it - baptize). IMO, it is quickly exposed that all these prohibitions of which they speak are entirely absent from Scripture (and from anything or anyone prior to the 16th Century Anabaptists of which many Evangelicals are now heirs). There are NO age, gender, nationality or credal mandates. And often the arguments used here (especially the "Ignore what the Bible says and DO or DON'T only according to examples that we see in the Bible) is very dangerous and one they themselves don't believe or follow. This is the issue that gets most of the attention (as we see in the 55 pages here).


2. Effect. What - if anything - can be the result of this "Go.... Baptize..... Teach?" Some (as in this thread) have argued this is all a total waste of time, of ZERO spiritual value. Odd (to me) Jesus would make this His Great Commission to the Church.... it would be SO important in the Book of Acts.... so critical in the Early Church..... yet Jesus is commanding something that is a "waste of time" and "of no value." The problem, however, is that there is only one verse that speaks to the Baptize and Teach parts, and neither is without controversy: "Baptism now saves you" and "Faith comes by hearing." But there is no verse that says, "Teaching is a waste of time" or "Baptism is of no value or consequence." Those who argue that Baptism DOES something have little to go on.... those who so dogmatically and passionately insist it's a total waste of time have nothing to go on. IMO, this often comes down to monergism vs. synergism - whether people see Christianity as hoops we gotta jump through to bless God ("Ordinances") OR as gifts God grants to us bless us? It is grace/mercy/gifts OR works/merits/hoops? The premise will determine whether God can use going and baptizing and teaching to give/bless OR if must be able to do our part (after all, as is CONSTANTLY and foundationally pointed out, babies can't do much)? Monergists, generally, have no problem with the idea that God can use "Means of Grace" and give faith to a baby (as with John the Baptist)..... synergists will have grave problems with this unless the receiver is at least able to do his/her part in salvation.


These are separate issues. But for 1500 years, all Christians held that there are no prohibitions to Baptism and that Baptism does something for the receiver. That's still the position of the vast, vast majority of Christians today. But the Anabaptists in the 16th Century introduced the idea of baptism as an Ordinance, of little or no value or effect, and that there are many prohibitions as to who may be given baptism. They are still a small majority of Christians but vocal.



Pax Christi



.

No prohibitions? So atheists who dont repent can be baptized?

Yes. In fact, I suspect the Great Commission of "GO.... BAPTIZE.... TEACH" is aimed at atheists. I was baptized when I was less than one minute old and spiritually DEAD (thus unable to do ANYTHING spiritually and an atheist). Was it thus a waste of time to GO.... BAPTIZE... TEACH?" I don't think so.

If you have a verse that prohibits the Great Commission to some people, give it. But so far, in 55 pages of posts in this thread, no one yet has been able to come up with one. If you can, post it.

As I noted (and you seem to confirm) there is no verse that states, "Go...... baptize.... teach.... but that's all a waste of time unless FIRST the person has celebrated their X birthday, has repented of their sin, and documented/proven their Christian faith and born again status." As we've witnessed in 55 pages of this thread. no one has been able to come up with a single verse for any of their (since the 16th Century) prohibitions.

One could do this with the other great word to the age of the church: the Great Commandment ("Love one another just as I first loved you."). They could insist, "But this doens't apply to African Americans! because nowhere does it say to love them and where do we seem them being loved in the NT!" The Command is to love..... nowhere is any subgroup of humans exempted. Well, the Great Commission is to go.... baptize.... teach..... and as we witness in this thread, in 55 pages of it, no one has been able to come up with even one verse that says "EXCEPT......" No verse that says, "But CANST NOT do this for X"

I agree, there might be practical considerations for adults (many believe that with adults, we should first teach and then baptize) but that's a separate issue: Those churches do NOT believe there are age prohibitions or that going... baptizing... teaching are a "waste of time" and "of no value" its not a theological issue at all but one of praxis: they holding that in the case of ADULTS the order is best reversed... but they hold that's not the best approach with infants and children. A separate issue of praxis and not the issue here since they are not holding that baptism has a different meaning in those two cases; they aren't holding that God forbids baptism to those under the age of X or that the Great Commission is a waste of time, they are just applying the Great Commission differently according to the situations encountered, but never are they doing NOTHING.



Pax Christi



- Josiah

 

[Albion]

Yes. In fact, I suspect the Great Commission of "GO.... BAPTIZE.... TEACH" is aimed at atheists. I was baptized when I was less than one minute old and spiritually DEAD (thus unable to do ANYTHING spiritually and an atheist). Was it thus a waste of time to GO.... BAPTIZE... TEACH?" I don't think so.

- Josiah

Yes. That's a cardinal point that is almost always obscured in discussions such as this one.

 

[Albion]

No there's water baptism and baptism in the Holy Spirit most of the time....

All right, but the second of these does not negate the first of these. Yet that is what opponents of infant baptism have maintained..

 

[Imalive]

nm

 

[Imalive]

nm

 

[MennoSota]

Why do you think I am going to follow a bunch of people who say "We are Christian, Protestant, conservative, evangelical, fundamental, and non-denominational." I am Christian and Catholic and not an evangelical and not a Protestant and not fundamental and not non-denominational. Try again.

What does baptism mean, if you know then tell us.

I expect you to thoroughly read and obey God’s word. Test it against all teaching from all individuals and denominations. Work to rightly divide the word of God.
Your inability to see the work of God entirely apart from your own works is disappointing.

 

[user1234]

But are you saved?

No, dont follow a bunch of ppl, especially a hierarchy of them that arent saved.
And None of those denoms will save you, ESPECIALLY not any that is based on works-righteousness. Only Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No prohibitions? So atheists who dont repent can be baptized? I dont think so. Some churches dont even baptize a baby if the parents dont believe.

The Catholic Church teaches that no infant can be rightly baptised without at least two things being true - the parent(s) must give consent and at least one parent must be among the faithful in communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I expect you to thoroughly read and obey God’s word. ...

One reads the 73 books of the canon of holy scripture with diligence and frequency.

 

[atpollard]

The oft quoted (in isolation or even in part) Ephesians 4:5 is from a larger context whose point is worth noting:

Ephesians 4:1-16 NASB UNITY OF THE SPIRIT
1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore [fn]it says,
“WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”
9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what [fn]does it mean except that He also [fn]had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the [fn]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [fn]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [fn]which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 [fn]As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness [fn]in deceitful scheming; 15 but [fn]speaking the truth in love, [fn]we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together [fn]by what every joint supplies, according to the [fn]proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

 

[user1234]

*In response to a question someone asked in an earlier post
about why should they follow a bunch of ppl→

→Please, dont follow a bunch of ppl, especially a hierarchy of them that arent saved and are leading others astray. There's much deceiving and being deceived going on.

None of the denominations will save you or anyone, and any that is based on works-righteousness or has a legalistic hierarchy/doctrines/practices is especially grievous.
Only Jesus Christ saves, and Jesus Christ alone.

 

[MennoSota]

One reads the 73 books of the canon of holy scripture with diligence and frequency.

Perhaps, but you let others interpret what it says for you and you don't question the legitimacy of their interpretation.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The oft quoted (in isolation or even in part) Ephesians 4:5 is from a larger context whose point is worth noting ...

When first quoted the immediate context was included. Nevertheless the context does not make Ephesians 4:5 say anything different from "one Lord, one faith, one baptism".

Ephesians 4:1-16 And so, as a prisoner in the Lord, I beg you to walk in a manner worthy of the vocation to which you have been called: [2] with all humility and meekness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. [3] Be anxious to preserve the unity of the Spirit within the bonds of peace. [4] One body and one Spirit: to this you have been called by the one hope of your calling: [5] one Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all. [7] Yet to each one of us there has been given grace according to the measure allotted by Christ. [8] Because of this, he says: "Ascending on high, he took captivity itself captive; he gave gifts to men." [9] Now that he has ascended, what is left except for him also to descended, first to the lower parts of the earth? [10] He who descended is the same one who also ascended above all the heavens, so that he might fulfill everything. [11] And the same one granted that some would be Apostles, and some Prophets, yet truly others evangelists, and others pastors and teachers, [12] for the sake of the perfection of the saints, by the work of the ministry, in the edification of the body of Christ, [13] until we all meet in the unity of faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as a perfect man, in the measure of the age of the fullness of Christ. [14] So may we then no longer be little children, disturbed and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the wickedness of men, and by the craftiness which deceives unto error. [15] Instead, acting according to truth in charity, we should increase in everything, in him who is the head, Christ himself. [16] For in him, the whole body is joined closely together, by every underlying joint, through the function allotted to each part, bringing improvement to the body, toward its edification in charity.
​

I don't quite see how context makes the passage teach two or three or more baptisms but I am sure somebody will find a way to arrive at something like two baptisms.