Purgatory?

[Andrew]

It's really for you. You have displayed beliefs that are not in line with Christianity.

No I have not, you agreed with my statement remember?

 

[MennoSota]

No I have not, you agreed with my statement remember?

I recall you saying that God is not triune and that there is no hell. Is there more?

 

[Andrew]

I recall you saying that God is not triune and that there is no hell. Is there more?

No I said that hell is not the medieval hell we all think, fire is symbolic of Gods love.we cant discuss trinity here but you are just as self righteous as anyone else here, its your right.

 

[Josiah]

D -

I confess, I'm really pretty lost in understanding what you are conveying (sorry! forgive!). And it's getting worse with every one of your posts! I think you framing all this in terms of PURGATORY - a very specific, technical, unique, new dogma of just one denomination - probably is throwing me off.

I know that some Evangelicals embrace a sort of brand new "spin" on the medieval RCC invention of Purgatory (Charles Stanley is usually associated with this - although he is careful to never use the word "purgatory" to speak of this new "Evangelical" invention - which, BTW, is a result of the same Pelagian/synergistic model that the RCC had to produce Purgatory nearly 1000 years earlier). But I don't think that's what you are suggesting (although I think some others suspect it is).

Maybe you could back up...... and clearly state EXACTLY what you are suggesting (and leave out the word "Purgatory" unless you really are referring to the very specific, very controversal, new, unique Dogma of the singular RC denomination)? That might help. Because I DO want to understand what you are suggesting....


Pax Christi



- Josiah



PS Just for clarity sake: In Catholic theology, Purgatory has NOTHING to do with hell. It has to do with requirements for heaven.




.

 

[MennoSota]

No I said that hell is not the medieval hell we all think, fire is symbolic of Gods love.we cant discuss trinity here but you are just as self righteous as anyone else here, its your right.

Of course I'm self-righteous. That's understood. The Bible says that I am like a filthy rag. Just because God chose to adopt me it doesn't mean I am perfect. By no means.
My lack of righteousness does not, however, mean I am wrong in understanding your theological errors.
Fire is fire.
God's love is not symbolically the lake of fire. The lake of fire is portrayed as a real place of eternal torment for those who die as non-adopted rebels of God and his kingdom. There is no release program for time served. To teach such a fallacy is to give rebels false hope that they can earn merits after death. It also teaches that salvation in the present life is merited by good works rather than by God's unmerited favor (grace) alone. It is a blatant rejection of scripture and an abhorrent teaching of salvation by works. It is Pelagianism.

 

[Imalive]

Catholics do not teach eternal purgatory. Only those who will be in heaven pass through purgatory. The "duration" is finite and possibly "lasts but an instant". Catholics do teach eternal punishment in "hell".

Ah. I still wonder what text means. An instant.
Ian McCormack got saved just before he died by praying the our Father, but he first went to hell a moment, then to heaven. Dont know if it has anything to do w it.

 

[Imalive]

Of course I'm self-righteous. That's understood. The Bible says that I am like a filthy rag. Just because God chose to adopt me it doesn't mean I am perfect. By no means.
My lack of righteousness does not, however, mean I am wrong in understanding your theological errors.
Fire is fire.
God's love is not symbolically the lake of fire. The lake of fire is portrayed as a real place of eternal torment for those who die as non-adopted rebels of God and his kingdom. There is no release program for time served. To teach such a fallacy is to give rebels false hope that they can earn merits after death. It also teaches that salvation in the present life is merited by good works rather than by God's unmerited favor (grace) alone. It is a blatant rejection of scripture and an abhorrent teaching of salvation by works. It is Pelagianism.

Thats a nice false teaching too. We're rags and rotten sinners so we can just keep on sinning. Jesus came to save His people from their sins. I dont live anymore, Christ lives in me.

 

[psalms 91]

Fire as a symbol is cleansing or purging which can be good or bad. Hell is obviously bad but the fire of the Holy Spirit is good, the threshing floor is also good. We need to be cleansed and purged

 

[MennoSota]

Thats a nice false teaching too. We're rags and rotten sinners so we can just keep on sinning. Jesus came to save His people from their sins. I dont live anymore, Christ lives in me.

Did you ever read Romans 6?

If you understand grace, you'll understand how the process of sanctification works as well. Please don't put the cart before the horse.

 

[Imalive]

Saint Augustine died some time around 430 AD.

Saint Augustine affirmed purgatory "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (City of God XXI.24). He had good reason to affirm it because he learned it from the apostles' successors who learned it from the apostles who learned it from Jesus Christ and the apostles witnessed to it in holy scripture.

Hm, I always wondered about that too, otherwise the sentence makes no sense. Some who didnt know His will dont get many whips it also says. Dunno. Hope so.

 

[MennoSota]

Fire as a symbol is cleansing or purging which can be good or bad. Hell is obviously bad but the fire of the Holy Spirit is good, the threshing floor is also good. We need to be cleansed and purged

God sanctifies us and weaves both the bright and the dark threads in our life as a means of refining his children.

 

[Imalive]

Did you ever read Romans 6?

If you understand grace, you'll understand how the process of sanctification works as well. Please don't put the cart before the horse.

You believe and confess you died w Christ and then He can do a miracle. Gideons from cf got set free like that. He had a 38 year porn addiction. He prayed, fasted for weeks, nothing worked. Finally he gave up. Then God said: with this My son I am well pleased. I knew all along you couldn't do it. Confess what Paul says. I died with Christ and am raised w Christ. He did and then all of a sudden he was set free. Thus my username. Imalive. First I was Imdeadandidontknowit.

 

[Imalive]

made this for you

 

[Albion]

(sigh)

 

[MennoSota]

You believe and confess you died w Christ and then He can do a miracle. Gideons from cf got set free like that. He had a 38 year porn addiction. He prayed, fasted for weeks, nothing worked. Finally he gave up. Then God said: with this My son I am well pleased. I knew all along you couldn't do it. Confess what Paul says. I died with Christ and am raised w Christ. He did and then all of a sudden he was set free. Thus my username. Imalive. First I was Imdeadandidontknowit.

Well...I don't know this person (Gideons from cf), but I'm glad to hear God has given him release from his addiction. Please note that God told Paul that his grace was sufficient for Paul's thorn in the flesh. Paul had been crucified with Christ as well.
Grace still achieves it's purpose, even if God doesn't choose to remove the struggle.

 

[Andrew]

D -

I confess, I'm really pretty lost in understanding what you are conveying (sorry! forgive!). And it's getting worse with every one of your posts! I think you framing all this in terms of PURGATORY - a very specific, technical, unique, new dogma of just one denomination - probably is throwing me off.

I know that some Evangelicals embrace a sort of brand new "spin" on the medieval RCC invention of Purgatory (Charles Stanley is usually associated with this - although he is careful to never use the word "purgatory" to speak of this new "Evangelical" invention - which, BTW, is a result of the same Pelagian/synergistic model that the RCC had to produce Purgatory nearly 1000 years earlier). But I don't think that's what you are suggesting (although I think some others suspect it is).

Maybe you could back up...... and clearly state EXACTLY what you are suggesting (and leave out the word "Purgatory" unless you really are referring to the very specific, very controversal, new, unique Dogma of the singular RC denomination)? That might help. Because I DO want to understand what you are suggesting....


Pax Christi



- Josiah



PS Just for clarity sake: In Catholic theology, Purgatory has NOTHING to do with hell. It has to do with requirements for heaven.




.

I feel many in faith have many scales over their eyes. They cannot get passed what the group fills fit for acceptance and if you step out of line, you are condemned a heretic. Strip down the church and what you have is people, God wants people and not idols or new ideas invited into the church. For if even the apostles or an angel of light taught anything different than what the bible says they are accursed.
With this being said we need to get passed the assault of of manmade theories and suggestions of what hell has become. Most Catholics believe protestants are hellbound and vise versa, do we really seriously believe that any man with the mark of God on his forehead will suffer immensely and eternally in scourging flames and never burn up but be tortured forever and ever? God forbid, it is NOT scriptural it was early heretics introduced into the church, drawing in converts by superstitious Zoroastrian beliefs to command all Christians under the law of Rome.
Reformation helped shape things up so we shouldnt be damning one another anymore and also, while i am on the subject, since when was it okay to name churches after men? 1 cor. 12 should sink in, did Luther die for your sins?
The idea of purgatory is half truth, it had potential but now has lost all effect as it the whole idea is thrown out as dogma, who wins now?
I will struggle to paint a picture so please forgive me. Apply the same "idea" of purgatory to this current world we live in, and instead of literal fire use the symbolic fire as described in Isaiah 43:2, now then, we know that sinners have no eternity
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15
So those buried in Christ accepts his father and has God in their forehead, the reward is with thee according to thy works.
Those who reject Christ and is buried in sin had their reward on earth but are now forever dead. God does not want that evil character called the devil, rebellious sinning personality of Satan around forever, hence they have no eternal existence. God is omnipresent and as long as this "character, personality" continues it will squirm as usual in our consuming fire until "it" is done away with for good not burning for ever but burnt up. Death will be no more and hell will be no more all things will be made new, a new universe with no more death and no more tears or agony or misery, the new earth will have no shade of darkness as the heaven will be illuminated having no need for a sun.
Something like that but not the hanging by the tongue over a constant flame with screaming demons and a horned red devil with a trident laughing wagging its tail. That is silly man made exaggeration and error, story telling beast that get kicks out of pressing fear, except this one got into the church and both protestants and catholics cant get out of it.

 

[Albion]

I feel many in faith have many scales over their eyes. They cannot get passed what the group fills fit for acceptance and if you step out of line, you are condemned a heretic. Strip down the church and what you have is people, God wants people and not idols or new ideas invited into the church. For if even the apostles or an angel of light taught anything different than what the bible says they are accursed.

Being declared a heretic by the church seems pretty mild compared with that.

With this being said we need to get passed the assault of of manmade theories and suggestions of what hell has become.

Agreed. The Holy Scriptures are the standard and guide for determining this.

Most Catholics believe protestants are hellbound and vise versa, do we really seriously believe that any man with the mark of God on his forehead will suffer immensely and eternally in scourging flames and never burn up but be tortured forever and ever?

Hell is taught by the Bible, however Catholicism does not any more teach that Protestants are bound for Hell merely because they are Protestants.

Reformation helped shape things up so we shouldnt be damning one another anymore and also, while i am on the subject, since when was it okay to name churches after men? 1 cor. 12 should sink in, did Luther die for your sins?

The very few churches that are named after founders or leaders have that name because enemies stuck it on them. It was not they, so the idea that they are elevating the founder higher than ought to be done--in this way--is mistaken. Anyway, this is really uncommon.

The idea of purgatory is half truth, it had potential but now has lost all effect as it the whole idea is thrown out as dogma, who wins now?
I will struggle to paint a picture so please forgive me. Apply the same "idea" of purgatory to this current world we live in, and instead of literal fire use the symbolic fire as described in Isaiah 43:2, now then, we know that sinners have no eternity
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15
So those buried in Christ accepts his father and has God in their forehead, the reward is with thee according to thy works.
Those who reject Christ and is buried in sin had their reward on earth but are now forever dead. God does not want that evil character called the devil, rebellious sinning personality of Satan around forever, hence they have no eternal existence. God is omnipresent and as long as this "character, personality" continues it will squirm as usual in our consuming fire until "it" is done away with for good not burning for ever but burnt up. Death will be no more and hell will be no more all things will be made new, a new universe with no more death and no more tears or agony or misery, the new earth will have no shade of darkness as the heaven will be illuminated having no need for a sun.

Whew. Quite a lot of error in that paragraph!

 

[NewCreation435]

Instructed by the Holy Ghost is indeed a powerful proclamation. My church teaches to fully repent and stay cleansed and do no sin after the baptism in Jesus name and if you do to ask God on the spot for forgiveness and let his mercy correct you. Proverbs does say that even the just will sin seven times but I dont know where it says seven times a day as claimed. This simply helped my understanding of why the Catholic church came to this reasoning, I still keep to my church view but like I said, in my opinion, that Catholicism helps the unlearned into the fellowship and we are free to decide from there. It would be nice to go to Heaven for eternity after burning in fire intensely for a time, but why not just adapt to Christ living now? That's my view, but for the unlearned I see it differently... I know this all sounds contradictory but in all earnest understanding of grace this teaching gives the unlearned Hope other than retreat.

There is no biblical evidence for the concept of Purgatory. I suspect that it was created to increase the giving on the unlearned peasant in the early church who didn't have Bibles of their own and were dependent on a Catholic priest to tell them what the Bible says. Don't embrace unscriptural views the Bible doesn't support

 

[NewCreation435]

I feel many in faith have many scales over their eyes. They cannot get passed what the group fills fit for acceptance and if you step out of line, you are condemned a heretic. Strip down the church and what you have is people, God wants people and not idols or new ideas invited into the church. For if even the apostles or an angel of light taught anything different than what the bible says they are accursed.
With this being said we need to get passed the assault of of manmade theories and suggestions of what hell has become. Most Catholics believe protestants are hellbound and vise versa, do we really seriously believe that any man with the mark of God on his forehead will suffer immensely and eternally in scourging flames and never burn up but be tortured forever and ever? God forbid, it is NOT scriptural it was early heretics introduced into the church, drawing in converts by superstitious Zoroastrian beliefs to command all Christians under the law of Rome.
Reformation helped shape things up so we shouldnt be damning one another anymore and also, while i am on the subject, since when was it okay to name churches after men? 1 cor. 12 should sink in, did Luther die for your sins?
The idea of purgatory is half truth, it had potential but now has lost all effect as it the whole idea is thrown out as dogma, who wins now?
I will struggle to paint a picture so please forgive me. Apply the same "idea" of purgatory to this current world we live in, and instead of literal fire use the symbolic fire as described in Isaiah 43:2, now then, we know that sinners have no eternity
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15
So those buried in Christ accepts his father and has God in their forehead, the reward is with thee according to thy works.
Those who reject Christ and is buried in sin had their reward on earth but are now forever dead. God does not want that evil character called the devil, rebellious sinning personality of Satan around forever, hence they have no eternal existence. God is omnipresent and as long as this "character, personality" continues it will squirm as usual in our consuming fire until "it" is done away with for good not burning for ever but burnt up. Death will be no more and hell will be no more all things will be made new, a new universe with no more death and no more tears or agony or misery, the new earth will have no shade of darkness as the heaven will be illuminated having no need for a sun.
Something like that but not the hanging by the tongue over a constant flame with screaming demons and a horned red devil with a trident laughing wagging its tail. That is silly man made exaggeration and error, story telling beast that get kicks out of pressing fear, except this one got into the church and both protestants and catholics cant get out of it.

a "half truth" is a lie. Call it what it is

 

[Andrew]

I apologize im not trying to complicate things by using a catholic term, I guess im simply saying that we should be purged of all sin by faith in Christ and by the grace allotted by God in this life.