Purgatory?

[Andrew]

I shrugged it off at first but this video helped understand the Catholic view.
I see how our denominations are equal in the body. For instance I see Catholicism as very devote to prayer, Protestant is very devote to keeping Catholicism in check also they keep strict scriptural adherence as Catholicism can help average people unlearned biblically to a fellowship until they become learned, they can decide to stay, leave to protestant or to self proclamations or to Pentecostals who are rejected by protestants and Catholics alike.
Pentecostals are strictly devoted to worship and praise five times a week and even dispute amongst themselves to keep check within this black sheep view of apostolic ministry. Opinions will vary... Albion and Menno, for this is my personal understanding.
Dear MoreCoffee, you might be proud that I have been subscribed to Sensus Fidelium for years, even though I find him harsh and brutal but not as much as vortex who I am also subscribed
https://youtu.be/BKMrhwnh5nU

 

[MoreCoffee]

"devoted to" or maybe "devout in" but not "devote to" - helpful criticism without a bit of meanness in it.

Purgatory is a universal Christian belief but some people like to think of purgatory as instantaneous so they never use the word and a few of them get all worked up when Catholics use the word. Purgatory refers to the purging away of impurities prior to appearing before God in heaven as one of the redeemed. Protestants, Orthodox, Catholic, and even the strange sects derived from Protestantism like Jehovah's witnesses and Christadelphians, believe that the redeemed in heaven are completely pure and totally sin free yet at the moment of death very few here on Earth either believe or teach that Christians are completely pure and totally sin free. The process by which one changes from Earthly impurity to heavenly perfection is called purgatory by Catholics and is called <insert secret word here> by Protestants. Orthodox people probably do not have an agreed vocabulary for the transition. Protestants appear to think the transition is instantaneous. Catholics teach that the transition is experienced and probably remembered as well as one remembers Earthly life when in heaven.

The Catechism of the Council of Trent says these things about purgatory

Different Abodes Called Hell
These abodes are not all of the same nature, for among them is that most loathsome and dark prison in which the souls of the damned are tormented with the unclean spirits in eternal and inextinguishable fire. This place is called gehenna, the bottomless pit, and is hell strictly so-called.

Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment, in order to be admitted into their eternal country, into which nothing defiled entereth. The truth of this doctrine, founded, as holy Councils declare,' on Scripture, and confirmed by Apostolic tradition, demands exposition from the pastor, all the more diligent and frequent, because we live in times when men endure not sound doctrine.

Lastly, the third kind of abode is that into which the souls of the just before the coming of Christ the Lord, were received, and where, without experiencing any sort of pain, but supported by the blessed hope of redemption, they enjoyed peaceful repose. To liberate these holy souls, who, in the bosom of Abraham were expecting the Saviour, Christ the Lord descended into hell.​

 

[MennoSota]

Purgatory is just another heresy developed at the most vile Council of Trent where the devil fully devoured the pope and his minions.

Purgatory was defined at the Council of Trent in 1545-1563: "Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar."

 

[Albion]

I shrugged it off at first but this video helped understand the Catholic view.
I see how our denominations are equal in the body. For instance I see Catholicism as very devote to prayer, Protestant is very devote to keeping Catholicism in check also they keep strict scriptural adherence as Catholicism can help average people unlearned biblically to a fellowship until they become learned, they can decide to stay, leave to protestant or to self proclamations or to Pentecostals who are rejected by protestants and Catholics alike.
Pentecostals are strictly devoted to worship and praise five times a week and even dispute amongst themselves to keep check within this black sheep view of apostolic ministry. Opinions will vary... Albion and Menno, for this is my personal understanding.
Dear MoreCoffee, you might be proud that I have been subscribed to Sensus Fidelium for years, even though I find him harsh and brutal but not as much as vortex who I am also subscribed

Since your topic is Purgatory, would you tell us what understanding or main points, etc. you took away from your look at the RCC's teachings on Purgatory?? What you found most persuasive, if anything, or least convincing. Whatever.

Thanks.

 

[Andrew]

Purgatory is just another heresy developed at the most vile Council of Trent where the devil fully devoured the pope and his minions.

Instructed by the Holy Ghost is indeed a powerful proclamation. My church teaches to fully repent and stay cleansed and do no sin after the baptism in Jesus name and if you do to ask God on the spot for forgiveness and let his mercy correct you. Proverbs does say that even the just will sin seven times but I dont know where it says seven times a day as claimed. This simply helped my understanding of why the Catholic church came to this reasoning, I still keep to my church view but like I said, in my opinion, that Catholicism helps the unlearned into the fellowship and we are free to decide from there. It would be nice to go to Heaven for eternity after burning in fire intensely for a time, but why not just adapt to Christ living now? That's my view, but for the unlearned I see it differently... I know this all sounds contradictory but in all earnest understanding of grace this teaching gives the unlearned Hope other than retreat.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Purgatory is just another heresy developed at the most vile Council of Trent where the devil fully devoured the pope and his minions.

Okay, tell us what purgatory is. I want to know that you're not repeating slogans without having a clue what the thing you're denouncing is.

 

[MennoSota]

Okay, tell us what purgatory is. I want to know that you're not repeating slogans without having a clue what the thing you're denouncing is.

Purgatory is a created argument by vile leaders in the RCC and confirmed at the most vile Council of Trent.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Purgatory is a created argument by vile leaders in the RCC and confirmed at the most vile Council of Trent.

Great, you really do not have a clue what it is or what it means.

 

[MennoSota]

Great, you really do not have a clue what it is or what it means.

How could I? It is found nowhere in the Bible, so it's clear that God doesn't teach it.
You may claim it is in the apocrypha, but that too was confirmed at the vile Council of Trent.
The Council of Trent was a council born in the bowels of hell.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Purgatory is in the bible. You just do not know the bible very well MennoSota. That is why you do not see it when it is in front of you. Hidden from you in plain sight. Purgatory is even in your eviscerated 66 book "bible" - by the way, do you notice how like the number of the beast 66 is?

 

[Andrew]

Purgatory is in the bible. You just do not know the bible very well MennoSota. That is why you do not see it when it is in front of you. Hidden from you in plain sight. Purgatory is even in your eviscerated 66 book "bible" - by the way, do you notice how like the number of the beast 66 is?

Is the Apocrypha, the books deleted by Jewish scribes, part of Catholic teachings?
I own one (Catholic bible with Apocrypha) and I just love the story of Bel and the Dragon also Sirach is pretty neato as it taught me that female musicians cannot be trusted, I found this out the hard way lol
Can you point me to some teachings in the Apocrypha about purgatory?
I do find it fascinating the edits in the Holy library, one can now only imagine what the NT was referring to when it parallels the book of Enoch, namely Jude.

 

[Cassia]

...... The process by which one changes from Earthly impurity to heavenly perfection is called purgatory by Catholics and is called <insert secret word here> by Protestants. ...

.The word that Protestants would use is <sanctification>.

 

[Josiah]

Purgatory is a universal Christian belief

Document that statement. What is your evidence that every Christian for the past 2000 years has believed in "Purgatory".

Protestants, Orthodox, Catholic, and even the strange sects derived from Protestantism like Jehovah's witnesses and Christadelphians, believe that the redeemed in heaven are completely pure and totally sin free yet at the moment of death very few here on Earth either believe or teach that Christians are completely pure and totally sin free.

There's only one denomination on the Planet Earth with a Dogma of Purgatory. It's a theory first invented around the same time as when the RCC split off the EOC and is not shared by the EOC (or anyone else). It developed and evolved over centuries but uniquely in just one denomination: the RCC.

Some believe we are free from sin because we are forgiven. To be forgiven is not the same as having suffered punishment for them in some intermediate state lasting for unknown periods of time. Some Christians believe that Jesus suffered for our sins, not that we do in Purgatory after we die.

Orthodox people probably do not have an agreed vocabulary for the transition. Protestants appear to think the transition is instantaneous. Catholics teach that the transition is experienced and probably remembered as well as one remembers Earthly life when in heaven.

Then all Christians don't believe as the RCC currently does. No other denomination on the planet shares the RCC dogma on Purgatory.

Not all agree there's a "transition" in terms of who/what we are..... not all believe this take place in "Purgatory" or that we are "purged" or that there is this intermediary state - thus they don't accept Purgatory.

the Council of Trent says these things about purgatory

The Council of Trent was a little denominational gathering.... only one denomination participated in this. And it was in the 16th Century, after its splits with the East and with Lutherans.

Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment

Not every Christian now and in history believes even this aspect of Purgatory.





Some resources:

https://carm.org/purgatory-and-1-cor-315

http://www.equip.org/article/is-purgatory-a-biblical-concept/

https://christianity.stackexchange....r-accept-or-reject-the-existence-of-purgatory

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Purgatory




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is the Apocrypha, the books deleted by Jewish scribes, part of Catholic teachings?

Catholics do not call the books "apocrypha" for us they are simply holy scripture in the same way that the Gospel according to saint Matthew is. When discussing scripture with Jews and Protestants Catholics often use the word "deuterocanon" to point to the seven books excluded by Jews and Protestants (those books are 1 & 2 Maccabees, Judith, Tobit, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch) Protestants and Jews also remove parts of two other books (those are Daniel and Esther).

I own one (Catholic bible with Apocrypha) and I just love the story of Bel and the Dragon also Sirach is pretty neato as it taught me that female musicians cannot be trusted, I found this out the hard way lol
Can you point me to some teachings in the Apocrypha about purgatory?

If you stop and think for a moment you may realise that your hope of heaven includes the idea that in heaven you will be without sin and without any inclination to sin. Here on Earth you do sin and are inclined to sin. What happens to make that change in you? Catholics call the change having your sinful nature purged away and the state of having it purged away is called, by Catholics, purgatory. Paul speaks of having one's works proved (tested) by fire and the burning away of the "dross" so that what is "gold and precious stones" is all that remains. Paul's discussion of works and the judgement of God that is applied to one's works also mentions that the person who experiences this escapes "through fire". That is a good example of new testament scripture discussing being purged of sin. The passage reads:

1 Corinthians 3:9-15 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
​

I do find it fascinating the edits in the Holy library, one can now only imagine what the NT was referring to when it parallels the book of Enoch, namely Jude.

The book of Enoch still exists. It is on the web. A search ought to find it for you. Catholics do not regard Enoch as canonical scripture.

 

[MoreCoffee]

.The word that Protestants would use is <sanctification>.

Really? I am never sure what Protestants mean by "sanctification". For Catholics its meaning is clear and well defined.

 

[Cassia]

Really? I am never sure what Protestants mean by "sanctification". For Catholics its meaning is clear and well defined.

You have many scholars here to explain it to you. I'm on sabatical. lol.

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

You have many scholars here to explain it to you. I'm on sabatical. lol.

Here's a Lutheran view: http://www.pastormattrichard.webs.com/Forde_Sanctifcation.pdf

 

[MennoSota]

Purgatory is in the bible. You just do not know the bible very well MennoSota. That is why you do not see it when it is in front of you. Hidden from you in plain sight. Purgatory is even in your eviscerated 66 book "bible" - by the way, do you notice how like the number of the beast 66 is?

Only in your dreams, MC. Only in your dreams.
The RCC butchers the scriptures by yanking verses out of context to force a false doctrine on their followers. It's just like Imams do with the Quran...which makes it even more sad. The RCC follows the same method of eisegesis that Islam follows. Did you know Muslims claim the Bible prophesies the coming of Muhammad? They come up with their teaching in the same fashion that the RCC comes up with purgatory.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You have many scholars here to explain it to you. I'm on sabatical. lol.

Okay. But the question may produce several divergent answers. For example you said that the word "sanctification" covers the transition from earthly imperfection to heavenly perfection. Most Calvinist theologies use the word "sanctification" to mean that slow and often difficult process of becoming less sinful in this life on this earth. That is not the same meaning as the one you suggested.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Here's a Lutheran view: http://www.pastormattrichard.webs.com/Forde_Sanctifcation.pdf

Geeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! Lutherans sure need a lot of pages to define "sanctification"

:smirk:

11 pages!

I will read them some time, when I am in need of a Lutheran definition. But I will say that at least Lutherans have given the matter some thought.