Why are Some Saved and Not Others?

[Albion]

First, find out what "works" means in a theological sense.

 

[Imalive]

You are stating something the Bible doesn't state, which is a very dangerous thing to do.
God gives the gift of grace and the gift of faith. (I can show you the passage) There is no gift of salvation for you to accept or reject. Nowhere in all scripture will you find the gift you are claiming. Therefore, you have no choice in the matter. Plus, if you did you would have salvation by works and not by grace. How can I express how horribly wrong you are?

Because accepting a gift is works.. hmmmm. What a work.
Guy saves someone drowning. Do you want me to get you out of the water? Yes please. Headlines next day: person drowning saved himself by mighty works.

 

[MennoSota]

No He wept.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!

Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Do you see the personification of an inanimate object as free-will?
Who is the one who hid peace from Jerusalem? Is it not God?
The verse you quote has nothing to do with free-will choosing of God's salvation.
Why is it so hard to accept God being the Sovereign decision maker in gift giving?

 

[MennoSota]

Because accepting a gift is works.. hmmmm. What a work.
Guy saves someone drowning. Do you want me to get you out of the water? Yes please. Headlines next day: person drowning saved himself by mighty works.

Better example. You are plummeting over a 5000 foot waterfall and have only 100 feet before you hit bottom. How will you save yourself? If you grab something it will tear you to shreds. You are doomed.
But God...
Saves you because He is the only one who can. He does so because he chooses to. Amazing...isn't it.

 

[psalms 91]

You are stating something the Bible doesn't state, which is a very dangerous thing to do.
God gives the gift of grace and the gift of faith. (I can show you the passage) There is no gift of salvation for you to accept or reject. Nowhere in all scripture will you find the gift you are claiming. Therefore, you have no choice in the matter. Plus, if you did you would have salvation by works and not by grace. How can I express how horribly wrong you are?

You cant

 

[MennoSota]

You cant

Indeed, the level to which you are wrong is inexpressible. It's like I'm talking to Charles Finney.

 

[Imalive]

Better example. You are plummeting over a 5000 foot waterfall and have only 100 feet before you hit bottom. How will you save yourself? If you grab something it will tear you to shreds. You are doomed.
But God...
Saves you because He is the only one who can. He does so because he chooses to. Amazing...isn't it.

Yes and so coincidental that He always saves the ones who chose to accept Him and doesn't save the ones who don't want Him. It's almost as if He knows their hearts and knows everything from the beginning.
There are seriously ppl on a Dutch refomed forum waiting apatically for decennia, going to church week in, week out, waiting if maybe one day God saves them, because they have no clue if He elected them. To help those ppl the evangelicals say: simply accept Jesus cause He wants everyone to get saved. If you take only half of the truth you can get problems.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes and so coincidental that He always saves the ones who chose to accept Him and doesn't save the ones who don't want Him. It's almost as if He knows their hearts and knows everything from the beginning.

No one wants him.
Romans 3
"There is no one who seeks God, not even one."
How can God make it any more clear?
You cannot choose what is not yours. But, someone can give you what is there's.
God chooses to give the gift of adoption to some, not to all. Why? Only God knows.

 

[Imalive]

No one wants him.
Romans 3
"There is no one who seeks God, not even one."
How can God make it any more clear?
You cannot choose what is not yours. But, someone can give you what is there's.
God chooses to give the gift of adoption to some, not to all. Why? Only God knows.

But if you don't take it you don't have it.
I know why those specific ppl are not saved or maybe are but dont know it. Noone tells em what they have to do like they told em in Acts. What must we do to get saved? God gives the gift but you have to accept it.

 

[MennoSota]

But if you don't take it you don't have it.
I know why those specific ppl are not saved or maybe are but dont know it. Noone tells em what they have to do like they told em in Acts. What must we do to get saved? God gives the gift but you have to accept it.

Wrong. Regardless of your choice, the gift is still given.
The Bible says "Even while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
The gift is not contingent upon us and our reaction. That would be silly.

 

[meluckycharms]

If God would, it means God wills.
But, God clearly doesn't will all persons to be saved.
Albion, is the human will greater than God's will?
If a human "would not be saved" is the human's desire to "would not" greater than God desire to "would?"
Can you see your dilemma?

It is God's will that all are saved. 1 Timothy 2:4.

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[meluckycharms]

Ok. There seems to be a lot of confusion and arguments going on an I hope to address them. First, the OP is based on a short lecture in a Systematic Theology class. Having gone through seminary and have taken systematic theology myself, I can tell you that even graduate level courses are elementary at best. There is far too much information and not enough time to go through everything and answer all questions. The intent is to exposes students to various theological positions so that the students are aware of their existence. Second, students are taught where to find the answers.

Professors, the good ones at least, very rarely tell students their position. They merely lay out the possibilities so the student can make an informed conclusion. If a professor was to give there personal opinion, 99% of the students would lazily agree with the professor.

The video is no different, the professor is simply introducing the students to different points of view. Believe it or not, there are actually more than two options. Just do the research and see for yourself.

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[meluckycharms]

In regards to the OP, we first have to understand that God's omnipotence means that God is able to do all things that are proper objects of his power. This means there are limitations to God's omnipotence.

First, God has natural limitations. He cannot do what is contradictory to His nature. God cannot lie (Titus 1:2), sin (James 1:13), deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:11-13) or force willful obedience (Matthew 23:37).

In this case, the omnipotence of God does not mean that He can do anything. God's omnipotence means that He can do anything that is possible. As long as we have free will, God cannot remove evil by forcing us to choose goodness. This coercion would be a contradiction that goes against his nature.

I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully, "All will be saved." But my reasons retorts, "Without their will, or with it?" If I say "Without their will", I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If is say "With their will," my reason replies, "How if they will not give in?" (C.S.Lewis)

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[Andrew]

In regards to the OP, we first have to understand that God's omnipotence means that God is able to do all things that are proper objects of his power. This means there are limitations to God's omnipotence.

First, God has natural limitations. He cannot do what is contradictory to His nature. God cannot lie (Titus 1:2), sin (James 1:13), deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:11-13) or force willful obedience (Matthew 23:37).

In this case, the omnipotence of God does not mean that He can do anything. God's omnipotence means that He can do anything that is possible. As long as we have free will, God cannot remove evil by forcing us to choose goodness. This coercion would be a contradiction that goes against his nature.

I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully, "All will be saved." But my reasons retorts, "Without their will, or with it?" If I say "Without their will", I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If is say "With their will," my reason replies, "How if they will not give in?" (C.S.Lewis)

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Exactly, Christians submit to Gods will instead of their own "thy will be done" other than that it's on your own will and no man can save himself.

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[MennoSota]

It is God's will that all are saved. 1 Timothy 2:4.

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If you were correct then you serve a really weak god who is incapable of fulfilling his own will.
Universalism is rejected in the Bible and you can read it in Paul's letter to Timothy.
1 Timothy 1:5-20
[5]The purpose of my instruction is that all believers would be filled with love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and genuine faith.
[6]But some people have missed this whole point. They have turned away from these things and spend their time in meaningless discussions.
[7]They want to be known as teachers of the law of Moses, but they don’t know what they are talking about, even though they speak so confidently.
[8]We know that the law is good when used correctly.
[9]For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders.
[10]The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching
[11]that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God.
[12]I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength to do his work. He considered me trustworthy and appointed me to serve him,
[13]even though I used to blaspheme the name of Christ. In my insolence, I persecuted his people. But God had mercy on me because I did it in ignorance and unbelief.
[14]Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He filled me with the faith and love that come from Christ Jesus.
[15]This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it: “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners”—and I am the worst of them all.
[16]But God had mercy on me so that Christ Jesus could use me as a prime example of his great patience with even the worst sinners. Then others will realize that they, too, can believe in him and receive eternal life.
[17]All honor and glory to God forever and ever! He is the eternal King, the unseen one who never dies; he alone is God. Amen.
[18]Timothy, my son, here are my instructions for you, based on the prophetic words spoken about you earlier. May they help you fight well in the Lord’s battles.
[19]Cling to your faith in Christ, and keep your conscience clear. For some people have deliberately violated their consciences; as a result, their faith has been shipwrecked.
[20]Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples. I threw them out and handed them over to Satan so they might learn not to blaspheme God.

 

[MennoSota]

1 Timothy 2:1-6
[1]I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them.
[2]Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity.
[3]This is good and pleases God our Savior,
[4]who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.
[5]For,There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.
[6]He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone.This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time.

What is clear in many passages where Paul uses the term "all" is that Paul is referring to status groups. God desires all to be saved, not just Jews or slaves or free or wealthy, but all. We see the same expression in 2 Corinthians 5: 14-19 where Paul uses the word "all." It is clear from the surrounding context that Paul is not saying God will save all and he never says that man is given the free-will to choose salvation or reject it.

 

[MennoSota]

In regards to the OP, we first have to understand that God's omnipotence means that God is able to do all things that are proper objects of his power. This means there are limitations to God's omnipotence.

First, God has natural limitations. He cannot do what is contradictory to His nature. God cannot lie (Titus 1:2), sin (James 1:13), deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:11-13) or force willful obedience (Matthew 23:37).

In this case, the omnipotence of God does not mean that He can do anything. God's omnipotence means that He can do anything that is possible. As long as we have free will, God cannot remove evil by forcing us to choose goodness. This coercion would be a contradiction that goes against his nature.

I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully, "All will be saved." But my reasons retorts, "Without their will, or with it?" If I say "Without their will", I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If is say "With their will," my reason replies, "How if they will not give in?" (C.S.Lewis)

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There is no limit to God's Sovereignty. God determines all things and holds our breath in his hand. He does not leave salvation to chance, he orchestrates salvation of the elect by his sovereign will.

 

[meluckycharms]

If you were correct then you serve a really weak god who is incapable of fulfilling his own will.
Universalism is rejected in the Bible and you can read it in Paul's letter to Timothy.
1 Timothy 1:5-20
[5]The purpose of my instruction is that all believers would be filled with love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and genuine faith.
[6]But some people have missed this whole point. They have turned away from these things and spend their time in meaningless discussions.
[7]They want to be known as teachers of the law of Moses, but they don’t know what they are talking about, even though they speak so confidently.
[8]We know that the law is good when used correctly.
[9]For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders.
[10]The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching
[11]that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God.
[12]I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength to do his work. He considered me trustworthy and appointed me to serve him,
[13]even though I used to blaspheme the name of Christ. In my insolence, I persecuted his people. But God had mercy on me because I did it in ignorance and unbelief.
[14]Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He filled me with the faith and love that come from Christ Jesus.
[15]This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it: “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners”—and I am the worst of them all.
[16]But God had mercy on me so that Christ Jesus could use me as a prime example of his great patience with even the worst sinners. Then others will realize that they, too, can believe in him and receive eternal life.
[17]All honor and glory to God forever and ever! He is the eternal King, the unseen one who never dies; he alone is God. Amen.
[18]Timothy, my son, here are my instructions for you, based on the prophetic words spoken about you earlier. May they help you fight well in the Lord’s battles.
[19]Cling to your faith in Christ, and keep your conscience clear. For some people have deliberately violated their consciences; as a result, their faith has been shipwrecked.
[20]Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples. I threw them out and handed them over to Satan so they might learn not to blaspheme God.

So tell me, is God weak or a liar?

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[meluckycharms]

There is no limit to God's Sovereignty. God determines all things and holds our breath in his hand. He does not leave salvation to chance, he orchestrates salvation of the elect by his sovereign will.

Yet he cannot lie, deny Himself, sin, or force people to do things against His will...unless you are suggesting those scriptures are false.

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[meluckycharms]

There is no limit to God's Sovereignty. God determines all things and holds our breath in his hand. He does not leave salvation to chance, he orchestrates salvation of the elect by his sovereign will.

Can God make a square circle, or a rock so heavy He cannot lift it? He cannot because they are contradictory. Can God steal? God cannot force people to love him. Because like the other examples, forced love is not love at all...its rape. God is not a divine rapist. Also, you position is the position of Calvin, it is okay for you to feel strongly about your position. However, your position is one of many options.

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