Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[brightfame52]

No it's a gift. It's something only the spirit can do. Not the flesh or soul. You can't produce it. It only comes when the Spirit works and the Gospel, the Word is preached. Paul says: how hear without a preacher? Faith comes by hearing the Word of Christ. And without God our spirit is seperated from Him, thus dead and has to be revived. You get a new heart and you get the measure of faith from God.

It is a gift, but its an act as well

 

[Albion]

It is a gift, but its an act as well

We'd love to have you explain how "it" can be simultaneously both a gift and not a gift.

 

[Messy]

It is a gift, but its an act as well

Faith is a gift that acts, but because it's not your own natural faith it's also not your own works. Say someone believes that God exists, demons believe that too, and doesn't want to follow Him, then he has no saving faith as a gift from God and the belief he has himself won't do a thing to get him into heaven, like for instance the guy who hid his talent in the ground, because he 'knew he was a hard man'. He did believe that God exists. To follow Him is a choice. To believe He exists is not a choice. If you don't believe that He exists you can chose to check it, ask for signs or chose to read the Bible, search, but that is because the Spirit works on your heart.

 

[brightfame52]

We'd love to have you explain how "it" can be simultaneously both a gift and not a gift.

Its a gift and its an act.

 

[brightfame52]

Faith is a gift that acts, but because it's not your own natural faith it's also not your own works. Say someone believes that God exists, demons believe that too, and doesn't want to follow Him, then he has no saving faith as a gift from God and the belief he has himself won't do a thing to get him into heaven, like for instance the guy who hid his talent in the ground, because he 'knew he was a hard man'. He did believe that God exists. To follow Him is a choice. To believe He exists is not a choice. If you don't believe that He exists you can chose to check it, ask for signs or chose to read the Bible, search, but that is because the Spirit works on your heart.

Believing is an act a person does, for God doesnt believe for the individual, and its given to believe on Christ as a gift Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Its given graciously.

 

[Albion]

Its a gift and its an act.

If it were both a gift and an act, both would be God's doing.

But if it's one's own acts, these have been much discussion here concerning what the human does or does not do or needs to do in the matter of justification. Hopefully, you'll come to the understanding that it's all in God's hands. You have argued both sides of the issue so far.

Believing is an act a person does

No, believing is not an act, not if you mean it to be what's otherwise called a "work." If it were a "work," then you'd be arguing for salvation coming through the joint efforts of Men and God.

 

[brightfame52]

If it were both a gift and an act, both would be God's doing.

But if it's one's own acts, these have been much discussion here concerning what the human does or does not do or needs to do in the matter of justification. Hopefully, you'll come to the understanding that it's all in God's hands. You have argued both sides of the issue so far.

No, believing is not an act, not if you mean it to be what's otherwise called a "work." If it were a "work," then you'd be arguing for salvation coming through the joint efforts of Men and God.

Believing is an act. Its a action verb, something done

 

[brightfame52]

Justified freely by His Grace !

Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The word freely here, the greek word dōrean:

I.freely, undeservedly,without a cause, or without a reason, or without a consideration, without an condition !

Those Christ died for are Justified freely and without any conditions on their part. Now if we say that man is required to believe [something he does] to act faith, or any other type of gospel obedience to be Justified before God, then that nullifies being Justified freely by God's Grace, on the sole condition of Christ's redemptive work. Once we admit faith or something else of any gospel obedience we do, then we have just made Justification a matter of debt owed us , and hath forfeited any claims to Justification freely by Grace, it has now become something due unto us because we met a precondition of some sort, so then it is no longer a matter of Justification freely by Grace ! 11

 

[brightfame52]

Justification based upon an condition !

Those who teach that they are Justified before God, based on their act of faith, obedience or some kind of condition performed, they are in essence claiming more responsibility for their Justification than God had, for according to their reasoning, all that God did through Christ still left them in a unjustified state, but what they did in performing the condition and as an supplement, is what actually Justified them before God !12

 

[Albion]

Justification based upon an condition !

Those who teach that they are Justified before God, based on their act of faith, obedience or some kind of condition performed, they are in essence claiming more responsibility for their Justification than God had, for but what they did in performing the condition and as an supplement, is what actually Justified them before God !12

That is not correct. The teaching is that Faith is not something we can come to apart from God.

Nothing we can do on our own entitles us to have saving Faith.

To be fair, there probably are some people who think the way you described, but the Bible and the Churches teach otherwise. After all, you got it wrong, so there most likely are other people who misunderstand also. These people, though, are not reflecting what virtually every Protestant denomination teaches.

 

[brightfame52]

That is not correct. The teaching is that Faith is not something we can come to apart from God.

Nothing we can do on our own entitles us to have saving Faith.

To be fair, there probably are some people who think the way you described, but the Bible and the Churches teach otherwise. After all, you got it wrong, so there most likely are other people who misunderstand also. These people, though, are not reflecting what virtually every Protestant denomination teaches.

Do you teach that Justification before God is a fact only after your act of believing/faith, or is it a fact based solely on the fact Jesus died for you ?

 

[Albion]

Do you teach that Justification before God is a fact only after your act of believing/faith, or is it a fact based solely on the fact Jesus died for you ?

As I recall, you want to believe that God predestines his Elect to salvation, and Faith in Christ's saving work therefore doesn't matter. But the Bible is clear about Faith being essential, so that is what we teach.

 

[Albion]

Believing is an act. Its a action verb, something done

It is not an act in the sense of being a (good) work. Not In the Scriptural and theological sense of the word work, that is.

But you contend by your explanations that it is a good deed, much like the proverbial example of someone helping an old lady across the street.

It is very wrong to talk as though an act (even if merely thinking about something qualifies) is meritorious in God's eyes and that it reconciles us to Him in whole or in part.

 

[brightfame52]

As I recall, you want to believe that God predestines his Elect to salvation, and Faith in Christ's saving work therefore doesn't matter. But the Bible is clear about Faith being essential, so that is what we teach.

Again:

Do you teach that Justification before God is a fact only after your act of believing/faith, or is it a fact based solely on the fact Jesus died for you ?

 

[brightfame52]

It is not an act in the sense of being a (good) work. Not In the Scriptural and theological sense of the word work, that is.

But you contend by your explanations that it is a good deed, much like the proverbial example of someone helping an old lady across the street.

It is very wrong to talk as though an act (even if merely thinking about something qualifies) is meritorious in God's eyes and that it reconciles us to Him in whole or in part.

Believing is an act. Its a action verb, something done

 

[Albion]

Believing is an act. Its a action verb, something done

But that does not make it be a meritorious work that has spiritual consequences. 'Redeem' to the Christian and in a religious context refers to a person being make right with God,

However, in ordinary day to day usage, the same word could mean any number of other things, including that you're turning in empty bottles for the bottle deposit. That is to 'redeem' them for cash.

Therefore, you are mistaken about belief supposedly being a good deed that earns merit with God.

 

[brightfame52]

But that does not make it be a meritorious work that has spiritual consequences. 'Redeem' to the Christian and in a religious context refers to a person being make right with God,

However, in ordinary day to day usage, the same word could mean any number of other things, including that you're turning in empty bottles for the bottle deposit. That is to 'redeem' them for cash.

Therefore, you are mistaken about belief supposedly being a good deed that earns merit with God.

It does make it a meritorious work if you believe that by that act of yours God made you righteous or Justified you.

---

 

[Albion]

It does make it a meritorious work if you believe that by that act of yours God made you righteous or Justified you.

---

No, it doesn't. And I don't know who, other than yourself, might think that belief in itself makes a person righteous.

Not even the churches that believe in the effectiveness of good works and disagree with the Sola Fide principle can accept the idea that good works alone will justify.

 

[brightfame52]

No, it doesn't. And I don't know who, other than yourself, might think that belief in itself makes a person righteous.

Not even the churches that believe in the effectiveness of good works and disagree with the Sola Fide principle can accept the idea that good works alone will justify.

Yes it does.

 

[Albion]

Yes it does.

Wishing won't make it so, but I'll get back with you if you ever attempt a basis for your thinking about this matter.