Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[Albion]

Thats who the elect are, the Justified Rom 8:33

Well, I was thinking you would notice that, in your preceding post, you argued for the direct opposite of that understanding when you wrote this--

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[brightfame52]

Well, I was thinking you would notice that, in your preceding post, you argued for the direct opposite of that understanding when you wrote this--

Now you know, the Justified are Gods Elect. Justification has only been promised to Gods Elect isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. Hence Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[brightfame52]

The justifier of him which believeth in Jesus 2

You see, because of what Jesus Christ has done for those He died for, God is Just in Justifying them from all unrighteousness against His Most Holy Law; For the only thing that makes any of us sinners before God is transgression of the Law. 1 Jn 3:4

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Paul writes 1 Cor 15:56

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

In other words, God's right to condemn any for sin, is because His Law is the standard and it is violated by transgression. That word transgress means violate law !

But now, Christ hath dealt with all of our violations of God's Law, so that God sees none against us anymore !

This is solely because of Christ's Satisfaction made to the Father for us ! Now this Satisfaction having been made solely by Christ's Blood, God in Equity and Righteousness and Justice must and does pronounce all for whom Christ died Justified ! They are discharged of any debts whatsoever against God's Law.

Listen, when a Creditor has been paid, He must be true and just to dismiss the the debts of all the debtors that owed Him ! If He does not, then He Himself becomes unjust !

We know that He accepted the payment of all the debts of all those Christ died for, because , He raised Him from the dead ! Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences [debts], and was raised again for[because of] our justification [acquittal].

All for whom Christ died and satisfied God's Law in behalf of, whom God declares Righteous because of it, in due time have this Truth revealed to them to believe in the Gospel Rom 1:16-17 and so He is :

The justifier of him which believeth in Jesus ! Their believing in Jesus by the Gospel revelation is evidence that God Justified them based solely upon His Satisfaction provided by His Blood to Him !

 

[brightfame52]

Justified before God, by His Death !

All for whom Christ died are by that Justified before God, by His Death, and this is so because all for whom He died hath been reconciled to God by His Death Rom 5:10, and that while they themselves are yet being enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now notice this Truth:

when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son

Paul saying of believers, that when they were enemies /unbelievers. In fact the word enemies means [echthros]:

A.used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
i.
opposing (God) in the mind

Now He is saying, while believers were unbelievers and in their minds opposing God, at enmity with Him, that while they were in that state by nature as others, that nevertheless they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son.

Reconciled here means :

A.
to reconcile (those who are at variance)

B.
return to favour with, be reconciled to one

C.
to receive one into favour

This means that they are in a state of having been approved of God !. This is true of them even though in reality they are opposing Him in their mind by their sin of unbelief !

Now for this to be so,it means that the Merits of Christ's Death have been applied Legally to them. That means its recognized by God's Law to be so !

This is True and based upon the Redemption in His Blood or by His Death Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The redemption is the :

I.a releasing effected by payment of ransom
A.
Redemption, deliverance

B.
Liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

The releasing means:

act of absolving; a freeing from blame or guilt; release from consequences, obligations, or penalties.

It means total forgiveness of all sins, not liable to any punishment or consequences of sins, and made Just before God as though never sinned in Adam or in themselves !

And so Reconciliation to God is not possible without redemption here described. So those for whom Christ died for, just as they are reconciled to God while enemies by His Death / Blood, SO LIKEWISE the same ones are Justified and free from all guilt of sin, and consequences of sin, while Enemies, by the Death of His Son, and since this is True of them as Enemies then it is as they are Unbelievers !

This is a Gospel of Kingdom Truth ! 8

 

[Lamb]

It means total forgiveness of all sins, not liable to any punishment or consequences of sins, and made Just before God as though never sinned in Adam or in themselves !

Are you sure "all" means all? I mean, in other posts you claim all doesn't mean all.

 

[brightfame52]

Are you sure "all" means all? I mean, in other posts you claim all doesn't mean all.

I dont think you are being accurate with the things I have posted. Do you mine showing us what you are talking about please ?

 

[Albion]

This is a Gospel of Kingdom Truth ! 8

That sounds like a specific reference. Is it a reference to a publication or etc. of some particular denomination? If so, which one? Thanks.

 

[brightfame52]

That sounds like a specific reference. Is it a reference to a publication or etc. of some particular denomination? If so, which one? Thanks.

No its not. Did you understand the post ? Lets discuss that please

 

[Albion]

No its not.

Thanks. It sounded familiar.

But if it had been the case that you were passing along to us the views of some particular church or publication you agreed with, that probably would have made the discussion here easier for everybody. As it is, I don't see an opening for any breakthrough.

 

[brightfame52]

Thanks. It sounded familiar.

But if it had been the case that you were passing along to us the views of some particular church or publication you agreed with, that probably would have made the discussion here easier for everybody. As it is, I don't see an opening for any breakthrough.

So I assume you are not interested in the post details, figures.

 

[brightfame52]

Those Jesus Christ died for are by his death alone, which is also called his obedience Rom 5:19, doeth make or declare them Righteous/Justified before God Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous !

For one cannot be made or declared righteous without being Justified, for what is Justification but to be declared righteous. That is stated in Vs 18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

That word justification dikaiōsis:

I.
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

II.
abjuring to be righteous, justification Its the same word for Righteous in Vs 19 !

Now it is not their faith that makes any of this true before God, neither does faith cause the existence of ones Justification before God [excepts for Christ's faithful obedience] for it has been beforehand, but Christ by His Spirit and Gospel does make it known to us Our Righteousness and Justification, along with our forgiveness of sins, hence they were Justified by Christ before they come to believe it, hence faith is the means of how we receive the knowledge of our Justification as stared Lk 1:77

77 To give knowledge of salvation/Justification unto his people by the remission of their sins,

and from this comes comfort and conscience Peace through believing. Rom 15:13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

[brightfame52]

Justified solely by His Death !

That those Christ died for are Justified solely by His death, apart from any obedience from them He died for, is a Truth taught in scripture and is part of the Gospel of God which Paul Preached Rom 1:1. One such scripture is Rom 5:19, this verse teaches that by the obedience of ONE, that One being Jesus Christ, That Obedience being His Death Phil 2:8;Heb 2:9, that many shall be made Righteous [ That's Saved] Now what is Plainer than that ? To be declared Righteous is Justification and it is Salvation which is effected solely by Christ's Obedience which is His Death.

Now the OT counterpart of the same Gospel Truth is here Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

They are being Justified or accounted Righteous here as a result of His Knowledge and Bearing their sins, which is the same as His Obedience of One in Rom 5:19b

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now some will say that it says in Isa 53:11, by His Knowledge shall my Righteous Servant Justify many, but that matters not, nor does it detract from the plain stated truth, for its not by the sinners knowledge that He shall Justify many, but by His Own Knowledge He shall do it. Now since this verse is the OT counterpart to Rom 5:19, His Knowledge in Isa 53:11 is His experiential knowledge in that by the things He suffered, He Learned Obedience Heb 5:8

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

The word learned here is the greek word manthanō:

I.to learn, be apprised
A.
to increase one's knowledge, to be increased in knowledge

B.
to hear, be informed

C.
to learn by use and practice
i.
to be in the habit of, accustomed to

Also the word for obedience here in Heb 5:8 is the same one in Rom 5:19.

What He learned was Knowledge. His being acquainted with grief was learned knowledge as Per Isa 53:3

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

The word acquainted, the Hebrew yada is the root word for Knowledge in Isa 53:11 and it does mean to know by experience.

Now all this goes to show the Gospel Truth, that by His Death alone, all those He died for are accounted Righteous before God's Law and Justice, BEFORE THEY BELIEVE ! In fact before they are born sinners. To deny this is to deny the Gospel of God, it Deny's the Death of Christ, which leaves one without any other hope of Salvation !

 

[Albion]

Now all this goes to show the Gospel Truth, that by His Death alone, all those He died for are accounted Righteous before God's Law and Justice, BEFORE THEY BELIEVE ! In fact before they are born sinners. To deny this is to deny the Gospel of God, it Deny's the Death of Christ, which leaves one without any other hope of Salvation !

Well, that's you own conclusion. The verses cited don't agree with it, and the conclusion doesn't follow logically from what's stated in the Scripture(s).

So, again, your reader is left to wonder where this unusual POV comes from. Is it what some particular cult teaches, or is it just something deduced by a "lone wolf" Christian?

 

[brightfame52]

Justification without Faith !

Ones Justification before God, if indeed Christ died for them, does not depend on their believing it, apprehending it by Faith, nor receiving it by Faith, in fact they do not even have to know about it at all, and in fact they don't until its revealed to them. The Only thing their Justification before God depended on was this Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

His Knowledge of them, which is foreknowledge and His Suffering Obedience, and He bearing their iniquities, and that's it. By those Two Things they are Justified before God, or as the ESV reads:

Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.

Because of that, their Justification, their being declared Righteous is a done deal eternally. Now, in God's Time, those that its a done deal for, shall have it made known to them by the Gospel, theen they shall apprehend that fact by Faith Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

That's what True Justification by Faith means, that ones already done and accomplished Eternal Justification by Christ's Obedience for them, is revealed to them in the Gospel. Rom 1:16-17 !

However they were still eternally Justified before they apprehended it by God given Faith.

 

[brightfame52]

Well, that's you own conclusion. The verses cited don't agree with it, and the conclusion doesn't follow logically from what's stated in the Scripture(s).

So, again, your reader is left to wonder where this unusual POV comes from. Is it what some particular cult teaches, or is it just something deduced by a "lone wolf" Christian?

Yes thats my conclusion ! But its not my own !

 

[Albion]

Yes thats my conclusion ! But its not my own !

Well, then name a church that holds the same view as you do. To my knowledge, there isn't any Reformed church body that does, so what entity is left that does so??

 

[brightfame52]

To say a person is Justified before God by their believing, or because of their believing, is a flat out denial that one is Justifed by Christ; For there is a difference in what Christ did, and what the person does; Now if we acknowledge that our believing was a assent to the Truth of our Justification before God being already a accomplished fact and a done deal solely by Christ's Blood As Per Rom 5:9, then believing is just a good work and evidence of our Justification before God. For it is written Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Justification before God is the thing not seen by the physical Eye, but it must exist before Faith is the Evidence of it !

Ones now having evidence of it , is not what caused it to exist before God as a fact, prior to receiving evidence of it.

 

[Albion]

To say a person is Justified before God by their believing, or because of their believing, is a flat out denial that one is Justifed by Christ;

Fortunately, few Christians misunderstand the point that badly. And you were unable to name even one Christian denomination that teaches such a thing.

It is not believed by Christians that they are justified "because of their believing," period. On the contrary, the teaching is that they are justified by Christ AND THAT they can appropriate that justification through Faith. The one makes the other possible.

For there is a difference in what Christ did, and what the person does; Now if we acknowledge that our believing was a assent to the Truth of our Justification before God being already a accomplished fact and a done deal solely by Christ's Blood As Per Rom 5:9, then believing is just a good work

No, it's not. Believing is not a "work" at all.

 

[brightfame52]

albion

y, the teaching is that they are justified by Christ AND THAT they can appropriate that justification through Faith. The one makes the other possible.

lol, its the same thing. Do you consider one whom Christ died for Justified before God prior to their appropriation through faith ? Yes or No

 

[Albion]

albion



lol, its the same thing.

Good grief. Anyone should be able to see that they are not "the same thing."

Do you consider one whom Christ died for Justified before God prior to their appropriation through faith ? Yes or No

If there are two possible ways of understanding the matter, with Justification standing alone according to one of them and Faith needed in addition with the other one...these two CANNOT be "the same thing," can they now?