Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[1689Dave]

It seems you've not read a thing I've posted.....

Here's the difference between what you state and what I do.

1. You believe that God stated somewhere in the Bible "Jesus did not die for all but only, solely, exclusively for some few." "Jesus did not die for everyone." But you can't find either statement anywhere in Scripture. I hold that the Bible states that Jesus died for all (and I gave the EXACT, VERBATIM, WORD-FOR-WORD verses (several) where God states that and I quoted verbatim, word-for-word, where God states that Jesus died for everyone. I hold we should believe God, you seem to hold we should believe you instead.

2. You hold that "If Christ died for all then all are saved." I hold that personal justification/salvation requires faith, your whole apologetic rests on faith being irrelevant ("If Christ died for all then all are saved" you entire apologetic). I hold that we are saved by faith in Christ. I hold personal justification depends on the Cross and Faith, your whole apologetic rests on faith being unnecessary (in fact, you've often argued that if faith is involved, that makes it Pelagianism and "works-rightousness."

3. It seems we both hold that justification is entirely, wholly rests on God's grace, mercy and work. The Cross and faith are both 100% the work and gift of God. It's just that you seem to be doing a copy/paste of an apologetic directed to Arminianists, and none of us here are Arminianists - so you have to declare us Pelagianists (even though you know we aren't) in order for your apologetic to "work". Everyone discussing with you are Monergists. As is you. You have to declare that if we agree with God that Jesus died for all, for everyone - that makes us Pelagianists, thus you are declaring John Calvin to be a synergistic, Pelagian, Arminianists - just like us, because he too held that Jesus died for all.




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I'm sorry, but I don't read long posts unless it's an article worth delving into. But since I know where you are coming from, mainly an Arminian stance, I make a pass until something stands out and then focus on that. That's why I suggested fewer words are better but got scolded for it.

 

[brightfame52]

Justified by His Grace ! pt 3

In Light of these things, Justification by Grace given us in Christ Jesus before the World began 2 Tim 1:9, One may therefore ask the question, why the need to be Justified by Grace before the World began, when no sin had been yet committed, nor had entered into the World to be Justified from ?

The answer is quite simple, this World from the jump was Created for an Redemptive Purpose in the Eternal Purpose of Christ Eph 3:9-11

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Col 1:14-18

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Vs 14 tells why !

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

And so the Elect Chosen in Christ before the foundation, and given Grace in Him at that same date, were Pre Justified from the sin and condemnation they would incur from #1 Adam their Natural Head from Natural Creation, and #2 from the sins against God's law they personally would multiply in their own selves, being born sinners. Paul alludes to this spiritual Truth here Rom 5:15-16

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

This free gift of Grace here in Vs 15 is the same free gift of Grace given them in Christ Jesus before the World began, and so this Grace cancels out their first trespass in Adam and their many trespasses that they shall accumulate in their own physical lives in the flesh !

 

[brightfame52]

Justified by His Grace ! pt 4

Some may still argue, then why the Death of Christ? Answer, because the Grace given them before the world began, was founded upon a Covenant agreement between the Father and the Son, that their sin, He [The Son] would come into the World and shed His Blood for their sin, and so its for His Blood of the Everlasting Covenant, and so that from that date, they were Justified by His Grace through the Redemption [in due time] that is in Christ Jesus, through faith in His Blood, not merely the Justified one's faith, but more importantly, God's Faith in His Son's Blood. What meaneth this statement? Why would God have Faith in His Son's Blood ? Because it meant that the Father was well pleased and satisfied with the Covenant agreement, whereby in the fulness of time, His Son would become incarnate and shed His Blood for the sins of the Sheep, God had Faith in His own prearranged plan and Covenant agreement, not to overlook that He had Faith in His own Son's Faithfulness to fulfill His Covenant Engagement to shed His Blood, so God was able to deal mercifully even with the elect that sinned before the Cross , looking forward to His Justice against them also to be satisfied by His Son's Blood. This means that all the believers from OT and NT times were given Justification by Grace before the world began, based upon the redemption that is in Christ Jesus ! 6

 

[1689Dave]

I understand some translations say it's God, but the greek only uses a pronoun, not the actual word for God. And the reason why I'm asking is because we know from Scripture, that God doesn't justify the ungodly, ever.

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

We know it's not the God of Israel, because He is NOT an abomination, which is why I'm asking, who is it then?

Only God can justify the ungodly. People cannot justify the ungodly so they are an abomination of the Lord who try to do so. Can you think of any churches that justify the ungodly? There arequite a few in my experience.

 

[MoreCoffee]

@DanielL had an interesting collection of ideas that he used to construct something that looks like the real historical Pelagianism.

 

[brightfame52]

Raised again because of our Justification !

Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for [because of] our offences, and was raised again for [because of] our justification.

And since Christ's Resurrection was for or because of our Justification [believers] as a result of Him dying because of our sins , it also means that His Resurrection declares all for whom He died for their offenses Righteous; So it is Two things that the Resurrection of Christ declares

#1 That all for whom Christ died have been acquitted before God's Law and Justice of all their offenses, and # 2 that they stand before God's Law declared Righteous. This we know from the meaning of the word Justification in the verse, its the greek word dikaiōsis and means:


the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

2) abjuring to be righteous, justification


Yes, this is what the Resurrection of Christ declares for all whom offences He was delivered!

And this is True of them all before they become Believers, but is why they must become believers, nevertheless it is True while they themselves, prior to New Birth and Conversion, are enemies and in Unbelief, its by the Grace of God !

 

[brightfame52]

The justifier of him which believeth in Jesus !

Rom 3:26

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Now in the original this verse reads in stead of " him which believeth in Jesus" it reads " him that is of the faith of Jesus"

The DRB bible translates it:

Through the forbearance of God, for the shewing of his justice in this time; that he himself may be just, and the justifier of him, who is of the faith of Jesus Christ.

Now God is Just and the Justifier of him that believeth in Jesus ! And why is that ?

This is why ! Because God had reckoned them one [In Union] and because of that He imputed their sins and guilt of law breaking, upon Him.

Now if we did not have a Union with Him when He was upon the Tree, God could not have been Just or pleased to lay upon Him the iniquity of us all Isa 53:6. For that would have been like punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty in our jurisprudence.

It would be like knowingly sending a innocent man to the gallows for murders of one who is yet guilty of the crimes. Yet because God viewed Christ and His Body [ the guilty church] as one as in the One Head and it's members, now then is the Justice of God manifest.

God is Just, even though Christ Himself personally never did any wrong, but yet those united to Him in a Legal bond a binding union did do the wrong. When Christ died for His People, He had already became bone and bone and flesh of flesh

Eph 5:29-30

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

So, He is Legally the Saviour of His Body Eph 5:23

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

Now if Christ died for us without there being a Union with us, there is no Justice for us in His Death, and no need for Faith in His Blood ! Neither could our guilt and condemnation against God's Law be removed before His law and Justice!

 

[Albion]

Only God can justify the ungodly. People cannot justify the ungodly so they are an abomination of the Lord who try to do so. Can you think of any churches that justify the ungodly? There arequite a few in my experience.

Baptist churches come to mind.

While Baptist people normally say that they are Bible believers (and proud of it!), what they believe is the fact that there IS a Bible.

When it comes to WHAT they believe from the Bible, there seems to be no other branch of Christianity that is composed more of people all going their separate ways with the theories that they come up with individually.

Some that I have run into have the notion that Heaven is a physical place located on one of the outer planets of the Solar System. Not a few think that Jesus came to them in their bedroom and told them that they didn't have to bother with all that "stuff" He taught in the Bible.

And yet another one insists that she is a member in good standing but doesn't need to be baptized at all, in no fashion, period! And this comes from a church that spends a lot of time talking about how it is necessary to be dunked or else (and as many times as you want). So much for "One Lord, One Faith, (and) One Baptism." Ephesians 4:5

 

[brightfame52]

Justified in the name of the Lord !

1 Cor 6:11

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

That those Jesus died for were Justified by His Death alone, meaning their Justification before God, its taught in this very verse, in that by His Blood alone they were Justified Rom 5:9 in the name of the Lord!

When something is done in the name of the Lord, He receives all the Glory and Credit for doing it. This Justification had nothing to do with what the one being Justified did. No, not their believing or repenting, but it had only to do with what Jesus Christ accomplished on their behalf, in His Name, His Person and Work, and therefore His Resurrection does testify that all for whom He bare their sins, that in Him, in His Name [Person] they are declared Justified Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and [He] was raised again for our justification

Hence Justified in the Name of the Lord ! 6

 

[brightfame52]

A Declarative Justification !

Those in modern day false religion do deny that there is a Justification of those Christ died for apart from their God given Faith, of which the scripture does teach. One of the teachings of scripture to a declarative Justification before God is that of non imputation of sin. If God does not charge a people with sin, then He by that Justifieth them Per Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The reason for the inquiry who shall lay any charges against God's Elect is to bring notice to the fact that God has not ! Why ? Because of non imputation of sin. Lets look at Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

This applies to everyone Christ died for, because He was imputed with their sins, and so they are not ! Because of that, they acquitted from all sin, by non imputation.

This blessed man or men are Justified / Blessed because God will not count their sins against them in a way of condemnation now or in the Judgment. This also applies to a whole World of Blessed men and women 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

John Gill comment:

not imputing their trespasses. This was what he resolved upon from all eternity, that inasmuch as Christ was become the surety and substitute of his people, he would not impute their sins to them, or look for satisfaction for them from them; but would reckon and place them to the account of their surety, and expect satisfaction from him; and accordingly, he did, and accordingly he had it. And this will, not to impute sin to his people, or not to punish for it, which existed in God from everlasting, is no other than a justification of them; for to whom the Lord does not impute sin, he imputes righteousness, and such are properly justified.

And so the World of 2 Cor 5:19 because of non-imputation of sin is Justified by God Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Note: Those Persons reconciled to God by the Death of His Son, even while they are being enemies or unbelievers, God does not count their sins against them while they are being enemies 2 Cor 5:19 !

 

[brightfame52]

A Declarative Justification !2


Secondly, there is a Declarative Justification before God, apart from one's God given Faith, not only by Non Imputation of their sins, but also by Imputation of their sins to Christ Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

That word laid means to cause to fall upon Him, to meet upon Him or to strike the mark !

Thats why the World Christ died for did not have its sins imputed to it 2 Cor 5:19; Rom 4:8 because their sins, trespasses, offense's, iniquities were caused to meet on Christ.

God the Father determined before the foundation of the World, not to charge, impute their sins and condemnation to them, but to lay them on Christ instead.

So the reason is once again answered as to why God did not charge His Elect Rom 8:33 and look at Rom 8:34a

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Because it was for Christ to die for their sins instead. He died for them because He was charged with them instead of them, so He bare their sins Isa 53:11-12

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The word bare in Vs 11 is the hebrew word cabal

to bear, bear a load, drag oneself along

a) (Qal) to bear (a load)

b) (Pual) laden (participle)

c) (Hithpael) to make oneself a burden, drag oneself along

He received the penalties that the ones He died for deserved!

But notice the results of baring their sins, He made them to be accounted Righteous or He Justified many, and this Justification is based solely upon His baring their sins that were imputed to Him!

ESV Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.

So God declares Righteous or Justified those whom sins were imputed to Christ for Him to bare in their stead!

 

[Albion]

Justified by His Grace ! pt 4

Some may still argue, then why the Death of Christ? Answer, because the Grace given them before the world began, was founded upon a Covenant agreement between the Father and the Son, that their sin, He [The Son] would come into the World and shed His Blood for their sin,..

In other words, God argued with himself and negotiated with himself, finally coming to some sort of compact with himself (!).

Because it meant that the Father was well pleased and satisfied with the Covenant agreement, whereby in the fulness of time, His Son would become incarnate and shed His Blood for the sins of the Sheep, God had Faith in His own prearranged plan and Covenant agreement, not to overlook that He had Faith in His own Son's Faithfulness...

More of the same.

So, having dealt with Modalism, the forum now turns to the issue of Tritheism.



trī′thē-ĭz″əm

noun​

1. The belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct gods, heretical in orthodox Christianity.

 

[brightfame52]

A Declarative Justification !3

And thirdly, We know that His Death alone Justified them apart from their God given Faith because of the declaration of the resurrection, for since He died not for His own sins and offenses, but as the Representative of those He died for, He rose as that same Representative, and as He was declared acquitted or Justified for His Faithfulness unto death, His death not being for Himself, but for those he died in the stead of, then it was they which were discharged, acquitted and Justified, as declared by His Resurrection. Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for [because of] our offenses, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

YLT 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.


This Justification of those Christ died for, had nothing to do with them believing, repenting, or doing anything; In fact its True of them even while they are being enemies in unbelief ! To deny this, is to deny the Gospel of Grace, Salvation by Grace ! 6

 

[Albion]

25 Who was delivered for [because of] our offenses, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

YLT 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.


This Justification of those Christ died for, had nothing to do with them believing, repenting, or doing anything; In fact its True of them even while they are being enemies in unbelief ! To deny this, is to deny the Gospel of Grace, Salvation by Grace ! 6

In other words, the Atonement was for mankind, as opposed to being applicable only to some Elect few. Also, that this does not mean anyone was guaranteed salvation then and there, but just that they had been absolved of the sinful condition that all mortals were in prior to the Crucifixion.

 

[brightfame52]

Declared to God given Faith ! 4

Now God given Faith, given in the New Birth, for Faith that Pleases God is not found in the natural man, to it is revealed their declared Justification by the Gospel sent to them Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God [Our Justification] revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The word Righteousness and the Word Just are basically the same word in the original both derived from the word dikaios:

righteous, observing divine laws

a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined

2) innocent, faultless, guiltless

3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life

a) only Christ truly

4) approved of or acceptable of God

b) in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them

The Knowledge of their Righteousness / Justification before God is revealed to them by the Gospel, and that this was an Matter of fact outside of themselves, and hence they now believe the Truth of it which is the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13. The Gospel in the matter of Salvation is not sent to people to put them in a position to perform a duty or an act to get saved, but its to reveal or make known the Good News of what Christ has accomplished and Established on ones behalf; Because Christ was delivered up unto Death and Divine Justice in their stead and for their transgressions, and when the Law released Him, it was a notification of their discharge; and the Spirit enlightens all those Christ died for of their Justification by Christ's Righteousness charged to them, and so it comes to past that the Just shall live by Faith. The Spirit takes of Christ's [ What He accomplished via His Death / Blood for them]and shows it to them or reveals it to them in or by the Gospel; and it is then God given Faith receives, embraces, appropriates this REVELATION as their Justification and Righteousness before God, and now before their own purged conscience. Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
6

 

[brightfame52]

In other words, the Atonement was for mankind, as opposed to being applicable only to some Elect few. Also, that this does not mean anyone was guaranteed salvation then and there, but just that they had been absolved of the sinful condition that all mortals were in prior to the Crucifixion.

Read what I have posted !

 

[Albion]

I did and that's why I explained, one more time, why you and a few others here have made your mistake. The Atonement does not mean that every human is automatically saved, and yet that is what has been alleged repeatedly here.

Any attempt to understand this very basic point will be gratefully received and we could then move forward from there, but all attempts to ignore such a glaring error (as by saying "read what I have posted" for example) or simply by repeating the error that has derailed the whole of the discussions about both the Atonement and/or salvation will be a waste of time.

 

[brightfame52]

Justified from all things !

Acts 13:39

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

The Nature of the Justification that Christ gives to all for whom He died, all the Elect of God or His Body the Church, its Justification from all things which means:

They are Justified from their Transgression in Adam their Natural Head Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

They are Justified from all actual Transgressions they begin t commit from the womb, before conversion and also after conversion.

They are Justified from all their present impurities in the flesh, Yes they are Justified in the court of God's Justice and Righteousness against anything anyone can bring against them even as a legitimate charge !


Illustrated by Joshua the High Priest who had on filthy garments ! Zech 3:1-4

And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

All for whom Christ died, the Israel of God, He has taken away their Iniquities from before the Justice of God !

 

[Albion]

The Atonement is not a guarantee of salvation.

Without Christ's atoning work, no mortal would have a chance of being saved, so the Atonement was/is critically important to our hopes of achieving eternal life.

But it is a big mistake to think that God ignores everything dealing with Faith AND/OR Works* (*for those Christians on that side of this issue) and assume instead that Christ's sacrifice meant that everyone made clean by that sacrifice was, therefore, "home free" no matter how they lived their lives. And we know this because the New Testament is simply full of directives about how believers should act towards God and also towards other men.

 

[brightfame52]

What About Heb 1:3

All for whom Christ died, are by His Death/Blood Alone, Justified before God from all sin, this can be concluded also by Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

What sins ? These sins that were charged to Him 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Now the sins of all for whom He died, He hath purged them away. That word purged means:

a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

Now actually, by Imputation, the Guilt of the sins of those Christ died for, is gone, done away with by the Offering of Christ.

All for whom He died therefore are Justified from all guilt of their sins !

It has been purged out of the sight of God and His Law, hence they are Justified, and none of these can ever die in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

This also means that those Christ has died for and purged away their guilt before God, will not always remain Unbelievers, for only those whom Christ did not die for shall continue in Unbelief and consequently die in their sins or will be found in them at His Coming !

This purging of their sins was done by Himself, not by anything they for whom He died for did or done !