Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[brightfame52]

Remission of sin cont


Now this remission of sin or Justification from all things is witnessed to by the Holy Ghost, and it shows from the time that Christ died on the Cross, when He confirmed the New Covenant for Many Dan 9:24,27

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins[Remission of sins], and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament [covenant], which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now that God had Justified or freed from sin all for whom Christ died Rom 6:7, and that He will in no wise remember them any more Heb 8:12; 10:17

And this Remission / Justification from sin had no assistance or cooperation from those Covenant Beneficiaries, but solely upon the Gift of Christ's Sacrifice!

 

[1689Dave]

SO, personal justification is the result of the CROSS + FAITH.
BOTH are necessary for personal justification.
The Cross supplies it... personal faith apprehends it.

So why aren't all personally justified? Is it because the Bible is wrong when it so often, so clearly, so obviously, verbatim, in black-and-white words that my four year old can read and understand, wrong in all those Scriptures that say Jesus died for all people? No. It just means the Bible is right when it so often, so clearly, so obviously, verbatim in black-and-white words my four year old can read and understand, that faith is also necessary, those without faith do not have personal justification. The first without the second - no personal justification. The second without the first - no personal justification. It's not either/or, it's both/and.

The problem is some critics of this view are radical Pelagians, who believe that if FAITH is involved, that makes personal justification synergistic since they hold that the only faith can exist is if the unregenerate, fallen, atheistic enemy of God creates it and gives it to himself. But for us who accept the historic Christian faith, who accept what the Bible says instead of Peligius, there's no problem with CROSS + FAITH since both are the work and gift of God, it just involves two things - the Cross and Faith. And while the Bible says the Cross is given to all, it also indicates that faith is not given for all.




.

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:8–9 (KJV 1900)

 

[Josiah]

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:8–9 (KJV 1900)

Correct.

Of course, you reject this. You insist the Holy Spirit really blew it here. What He SHOULD have inspired is, "But God commanded His love ONLY FOR SOME UNKNOWN FEW in that while those unknown people are yet sinners, Christ died ONLY for them, so that they have personal justification regardless of whether they have faith or spit in His face and denounce him since faith is irrelevant to anything here."

Your view depends on the Holy Spirit getting it wrong, it depends on how you correct God.


The Cross:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Faith:


“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)



Dave.

Now, again, list the verse(s) that state: "No, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few." Can't? Maybe because Scripture doesn't say that.

List the verse(s) that state: "If Jesus died for you, you are personally justified regardless of whether you have faith or spit in His face and deounce him because faith is irrelevant here." Can't? Maybe because Scripture never says that.






.

 

[1689Dave]

Correct.

Of course, you reject this. You insist the Holy Spirit really blew it here. What He SHOULD have inspired is, "But God commanded His love ONLY FOR SOME UNKNOWN FEW in that while those unknown people are yet sinners, Christ died ONLY for them, so that they have personal justification regardless of whether they have faith or spit in His face and denounce him since faith is irrelevant to anything here."

Your view depends on the Holy Spirit getting it wrong, it depends on how you correct God.

Us limits the atonement to Us. Surely you can see this.

 

[Josiah]

Us limits the atonement to Us. Surely you can see this.

It's a logical fallacy, as everyone (but you) knows. You LIMIT a word - with NOTHING in the text that so indicates. This fallacy has been pointed out to you many times by several of us here - but clearly, you don't care about truth and don't accept any accountability, any possibility that you could be wrong (not even God's verbatim words are accepted as your equal).

If I said, "I love my wife" that does not prove that ergo you don't love yours. If I posted, "Men can vote in the US" that does not prove that ONLY they can, it does not prove that women cannot vote. You need to study logic.



.

 

[1689Dave]

It's a logical fallacy, as everyone (but you) knows. You LIMIT a word - with NOTHING in the text that so indicates. This fallacy has been pointed out to you many times by several of us here - but clearly, you don't care about truth and don't accept any accountability, any possibility that you could be wrong (not even God's verbatim words are accepted as your equal).

If I said, "I love my wife" that does not prove that ergo you don't love yours. If I posted, "Men can vote in the US" that does not prove that ONLY they can, it does not prove that women cannot vote. You need to study logic.



.

The audience = believers for whom Christ shed his blood. Think about this verse if you will.

“of how much sorer punishment shall he be counted worthy who the Son of God did trample on, and the blood of the covenant did count a common thing, in which he was sanctified, and to the Spirit of the grace did despite?” Hebrews 10:29 (YLT)

 

[Josiah]

The audience = believers for whom Christ shed his blood. Think about this verse if you will.

It doesn't say ONLY. Your position MANDATES that you insert a work that's not there - because your opinion is not there. You are applying a logical fallacy, as we have pointed out to you many times. Not that you care.

 

[1689Dave]

It doesn't say ONLY. Your position MANDATES that you insert a work that's not there - because your opinion is not there. You are applying a logical fallacy, as we have pointed out to you many times. Not that you care.

Are you saying unbelievers are saved? Paul is talking to believers whom Christ purchased with His blood. If he purchased your bunch, they would believe too.

 

[Albion]

Are you saying unbelievers are saved? Paul is talking to believers whom Christ purchased with His blood. If he purchased your bunch, they would believe too.

What about people who profess to be followers of Christ but, like yourself, have denied almost all the specifics concerning how and why he did what he did and, in fact, who Christ even was??

Do you think Christ died for such persons as those?

 

[Josiah]

Are you saying unbelievers are saved?

No, you are. By IGNORING every time we bring up faith as essential (not ONLY the Cross, not the Cross ALONE).... or worse, by condemning us when we mention faith as you impose your Pelagainism on us by insisting that if faith is involved, then that's works-righteousness and synergism because you insist that the only way faith can exist is if the unregenerate, fallen, atheist creates the faith and gives it to himself.

When YOU keep insisting (over and over; it's your entire apologetic), "If Jesus died for all, why aren't all saved?" And when we mention faith, you ridicule us for being Pelagian, works-righteousness, synergistic, free-will baptists because faith is the work of the fallen flesh.

Paul is talking to believers whom Christ purchased with His blood.

And yet, you have NOT ONE VERSE that states that. You know that.

We have verses that state Christ died for all. And verses that state some have faith in that - and those that do are personally justified.

If he purchased your bunch, they would believe too.

Quote the verse that states, "If Jesus died for you, you will be given faith.' We'll all wait for that. But like all your weird theology, it based ENTIRELY on a verse that doesn't exist - while you just deny and reject the verses that do exist.



.

 

[Josiah]

@1689Dave


Here's the actual John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

Here's your correction of John 3:16, "For God so loved only some unknown few that He gave His only begotten Son ONLY to them, that whether they have faith in Him or spit in His face and denounce Him, it don't matter because faith is irrelevant and those unknown persons won't perish but have everlasting life."


Here's the actual Ephesians 2:8, "“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Here's your correction of Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace only a few unknown persons have been saved by Christ, irregardless of faith because faith is irrelevant to personal justification (so go ahead and spit on Him) and because faith is the gift of self to self and thus is a good work of the unsaved and so has no place in justification."



Scripture says that the Cross is necessary for personal justification.
Scripture says that faith is necessary for personal justification.
Scripture never states that ONLY one (and not the other) is necessary.
Scripture never says that faith is a human work of the fallen flesh, it says it is the work and gift of God.



The Cross:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Now, where is the verse that states "No, Jesus did not die for all people but only, exclusively for some unknown few."


Faith:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)


Now, where is the verse that states, "Faith is moot and not necessary for personal justification" And "faith is the work of self and not the work or gift of God." Where is the verse that stats, "If Jesus died for you, you will be given faith." Now, please don't quote invisible words (that deny the visible ones) but quote Scriptures that actually exist in reality.


Dave, we are echoing exactly what the Bible states and what Christians have believed.

You are denouncing Scriptures and teaching the opposite is true. Not that you care.



.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave


Here's the actual John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

Here's your correction of John 3:16, "For God so loved only some unknown few that He gave His only begotten Son ONLY to them, that whether they have faith in Him or spit in His face and denounce Him, it don't matter because faith is irrelevant and those unknown persons won't perish but have everlasting life."


Here's the actual Ephesians 2:8, "“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Here's your correction of Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace only a few unknown persons have been saved by Christ, irregardless of faith because faith is irrelevant to personal justification (so go ahead and spit on Him) and because faith is the gift of self to self and thus is a good work of the unsaved and so has no place in justification."



Scripture says that the Cross is necessary for personal justification.
Scripture says that faith is necessary for personal justification.
Scripture never states that ONLY one (and not the other) is necessary.
Scripture never says that faith is a human work of the fallen flesh, it says it is the work and gift of God.



The Cross:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Now, where is the verse that states "No, Jesus did not die for all people but only, exclusively for some unknown few."


Faith:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)


Now, where is the verse that states, "Faith is moot and not necessary for personal justification" And "faith is the work of self and not the work or gift of God." Where is the verse that stats, "If Jesus died for you, you will be given faith." Now, please don't quote invisible words (that deny the visible ones) but quote Scriptures that actually exist in reality.


Dave, we are echoing exactly what the Bible states and what Christians have believed.

You are denouncing Scriptures and teaching the opposite is true. Not that you care.



.

You do not understand the definitions (plural) of the word World. Get this right and you'll have a chance at knowing the truth.

 

[1689Dave]

No, you are. By IGNORING every time we bring up faith as essential (not ONLY the Cross, not the Cross ALONE).... or worse, by condemning us when we mention faith as you impose your Pelagainism on us by insisting that if faith is involved, then that's works-righteousness and synergism because you insist that the only way faith can exist is if the unregenerate, fallen, atheist creates the faith and gives it to himself.

When YOU keep insisting (over and over; it's your entire apologetic), "If Jesus died for all, why aren't all saved?" And when we mention faith, you ridicule us for being Pelagian, works-righteousness, synergistic, free-will baptists because faith is the work of the fallen flesh.





And yet, you have NOT ONE VERSE that states that. You know that.

We have verses that state Christ died for all. And verses that state some have faith in that - and those that do are personally justified.




Quote the verse that states, "If Jesus died for you, you will be given faith.' We'll all wait for that. But like all your weird theology, it based ENTIRELY on a verse that doesn't exist - while you just deny and reject the verses that do exist.



.

Whoever believes HAS eternal life. This means a person who believes in Christ was eternally saved in God's mind never to be lost. Just as God is without beginning or end, their salvation is too.

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” Romans 5:8–10 (KJV 1900)



Here's the difference between what I believe and what you think. No one can understand scripture beyond a few historical facts unless they are born-again. Think "many confused denominations result from this". So I focus on getting the gospel to the saved so their lifestyles can be saved. While you focus on making conditions the unregenerate can meet in the flesh to save themselves. Two entirely contradictory "Christianities". One of works for the flesh. One of Grace where God alone saves helpless people.

 

[1689Dave]

Various definitions of Kosmos/World. “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:10–13 (KJV 1900)

 

[brightfame52]

What Religionists do not know or believe about Justification, that it is a legal Judicial act by the Sovereign Grace of God, for and of those Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. A legal declaring of them being acquitted from all legal guilt and transgressions of God's Law, and the deserved condemnation, this solely premised upon the vicarious Death of Christ, whereby all their law breaking guilt and condemnation was sovereignly charged to Christ, or imputed to Him, hence leaving them fully discharged, For all of God's law demands against them were fully satisfied, declaring also to them a perfect righteousness Heb 10:14, they have been cleared of all sin, and given a Righteousness based solely on the Merits of Christ Righteousness to the Law, as He [for them] kept it perfectly, in word, thought and deed, while living upon this Earth as a Man ! 5

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 3:24

All for whom Christ died are Justified before God through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus ! Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

This free Justification had by His Grace nothing to do with anything the Justified ones did !

 

[brightfame52]

One must be in a Justified state before the Gospel is sent to them, and a saved state before they can believe it ! Otherwise they are in a condemned state and cannot believe Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because[or proof being] he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Everyone therefore that does believe, is Justified from all things Acts 13:39

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

In other words, everyone believing is already Justified or not condemned, for that is what believing gives evidence of !

Justification is first of all a remission of sins or the forgiveness of sins, a discharge of guilt procured solely by the death or blood of Christ for all whom He died Matt 26:28.

Now also with this discharge is the entitlement to life and eternal Glory, both of these aspects of Justification are effected solely by the Death of Christ, the Testator of the Covenant Matt 26:28 and Heb 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[brightfame52]

Justified by His Grace !

Many of the adversaries of the Gospel of God's Grace Acts 20:24

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

They reject that True believers were Justified by Grace apart from their obedience of faith, citing as a proof text Rom 5:1; However, what they willfully fail to realize and understand is that by citing one verse of what Paul wrote on Justification does not negate or make void what He wrote about it in another place, which was those Justified were Justified by Grace Titus 3:7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

These causes of Justification had nothing to do with anyone's Faith except Jesus Christ's and therefore freely Justified 5

 

[brightfame52]

Justified by His Grace ! pt 2

This Justification by Grace is solely on the exclusive right of God, that is it is done with respect to the Justified ones freely, without cause in and from them, undeservedly, and graciously, nothing in us or done by us good or bad. This brings us to the next consideration of being Justified by Grace, which is that Grace given us in Christ Jesus before the World Began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Now how does one become to be in Christ Jesus before the World Began in the First Place? Well it was not because of something or anything they did or did not do, but God's gracious choice of them Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God chose for Himself those whom were chosen in the Beloved, which is also called the Election of Grace Rom 11:5

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Hence : "according to the election of Grace" here in Rom 11:5 is the same as "according as He hath chosen us in Him" in Eph 1:4

And to all chosen, Grace was given and by this Grace they were Justified Titus 3:7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

This is also Justification before the World began by Grace since it was given us at that time 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This scripture alone validates as an Gospel of God's Grace truth Acts 20:24 Justification by Grace before the World began!

 

[Josiah]

Here's the difference between what I believe and what you think. No one can understand scripture beyond a few historical facts unless they are born-again. Think "many confused denominations result from this". So I focus on getting the gospel to the saved so their lifestyles can be saved. While you focus on making conditions the unregenerate can meet in the flesh to save themselves. Two entirely contradictory "Christianities". One of works for the flesh. One of Grace where God alone saves helpless people.

It seems you've not read a thing I've posted.....

Here's the difference between what you state and what I do.

1. You believe that God stated somewhere in the Bible "Jesus did not die for all but only, solely, exclusively for some few." "Jesus did not die for everyone." But you can't find either statement anywhere in Scripture. I hold that the Bible states that Jesus died for all (and I gave the EXACT, VERBATIM, WORD-FOR-WORD verses (several) where God states that and I quoted verbatim, word-for-word, where God states that Jesus died for everyone. I hold we should believe God, you seem to hold we should believe you instead.

2. You hold that "If Christ died for all then all are saved." I hold that personal justification/salvation requires faith, your whole apologetic rests on faith being irrelevant ("If Christ died for all then all are saved" you entire apologetic). I hold that we are saved by faith in Christ. I hold personal justification depends on the Cross and Faith, your whole apologetic rests on faith being unnecessary (in fact, you've often argued that if faith is involved, that makes it Pelagianism and "works-rightousness."

3. It seems we both hold that justification is entirely, wholly rests on God's grace, mercy and work. The Cross and faith are both 100% the work and gift of God. It's just that you seem to be doing a copy/paste of an apologetic directed to Arminianists, and none of us here are Arminianists - so you have to declare us Pelagianists (even though you know we aren't) in order for your apologetic to "work". Everyone discussing with you are Monergists. As is you. You have to declare that if we agree with God that Jesus died for all, for everyone - that makes us Pelagianists, thus you are declaring John Calvin to be a synergistic, Pelagian, Arminianists - just like us, because he too held that Jesus died for all.




.