What do you need to know to get to heaven?

visionary

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If you believe that your earthly father will save you the troubles you could get into as a child, does that stop you from needing to do your chores?
 
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Lamb

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If you believe that your earthly father will save you the troubles you could get into as a child, does that stop your from needing to do your chores?

Doing your chores won't help you gain a father you already have or from having him keep his promise to save you from the trouble you get into as a child.
 

Josiah

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.


This is uber-important..... :smile:



I think MUCH danger comes from confusing issues.....



When, as in this thread, the issue is justification (narrow) - what Protestants mean by "salvation" - then there is ONE and only ONE great Truth: Jesus is the Savior. JESUS! Not me, not you, not the Pope, not the RCC or LDS denominations. Not now, not ever. Not a bit. Not in whole, not in part. JESUS saves us. JESUS!!! We are saved by virtue of GOD'S love, mercy. We are saved by virtue of JESUS - His life, His death, His resurrection... His obedience, His righteousness, His perfection, His holiness.... His works, His accomplishments, His merits..... His cross, His blood, His works. Not mine. Not yours. Not now, not ever. Not a bit, not at all. Because we are CHRISTians and we believe that JESUS is the SAVIOR (and thus NOT me.... the job is taken), salvation is the result of JESUS - not me, not you.


Now, it's undeniably and biblicly true that we are mandated to be PERFECT exactly as and to the same extent that God Himself is. Yup. And don't water that down to nothingness! it's undeniably and biblicly true that we are mandated to be HOLY exactly as and to the same extent that God Himself is. Yup. And don't water that down to nothingness! it's undeniably and biblicly true that we are mandated to be OBEDIENT exactly as and to the same extent that God Himself is. Yup. And don't water that down to nothingness! it's undeniably and biblicly true that we are mandated to be LOVING exactly as and to the same extent that God Himself is on the Cross. Yup. And don't water that down to nothingness! it's undeniably and biblicly true that we are mandated to be RIGHTEOUS exactly as and to the same extent that God Himself is. Yup. And don't water that down to nothingness! All true.... ALL TRUE.... even more so than most detractors of the Gospel state, even more so than those who confuse things state.... NO! The Law is NOT "try really hard - and that will do." It's NOT the Mormon theology from the Book of Mormon: "Try your best and God will overlook the rest." It's NOT the Jewish, Muslim and Bhakti Hindu teaching that God sufficiently empowers us to eventually be good enough but we gotta "tap" this empowering to our credit. No. It's BE PERFECT - 100% - all the time - from the moment of conception to the moment of death (and beyond). It's LOVE just a much as Jesus died as He died for us on the Cross - 100% - all the time. Yes. That's Christian. That's biblical.


THE PROBLEM COMES WHEN THE TWO ARE CONFUSED. When either the Gospel is used to eliminate the Law or the Law is used to eliminate the Gospel. When one is made subject to the other. When one (or typically BOTH) is watered-down to next to nothing. When CHRISTIAN teachings are abandoned and what is proclaimed is a confused, entangled, blended MESS that essentially holds that we save ourselves by sorta, kinda, in a tiny way KEEPING the Law and thus not needing God or mercy or forgiveness or The SAVIOR - we just need sufficient time and help so we can save ourselves. News flash: "Do your best and God will overlook the rest" comes from the Book of Mormon, NOT THE BIBLE! It is a foundational teaching of ISLAM, not Christianity. It renders Christ a joke. It negates the Gospel. It destroys CHRISTianity.



HERE'S THE REALITY: We are justified (narrow) - "saved" to use the usual Protestant terminology - by CHRIST, which is why we are CHRISTians and not modern Jews or Muslims or Bhakti Hindus. Not, NOT, NOT by our own puny attempts to sort of, kind of, not really do what God commands ( being PERFECT, being HOLY, being LOVING, being RIGHTEOUS) - making Christ a waste of time, a bad joke, His blood just an unfortunately consequence of Roman politics and Jewish egoism. When we proclaim JESUS as THE Savior that means that JESUS is THE Savior. Not SELF is the Savior of self because it depends on what self does..... Not Jesus is PART Savior but the really important part is ME.... Not Jesus is the POSSIBILITY-MAKER but not SAVIOR. Not Jesus is the HELPER who empowered SELF to sorta save self but not the SAVIOR. But.... but..... but..... just because we are saved is not a license to sin, is not an exemption from the Law. The Gospel does not negate the Law just as the Law does not negate the Gospel. Just don't CONFUSE the two..... blend the two..... water down the two..... cancel one in view of the other. BOTH are true! Yes, Christians are STILL commanded to be absolutely, totally, constantly, divinely PERFECT, HOLY, LOVING, OBEDIENT, RIGHTEOUS.... in fact, Christians have MORE law because each of us also has to make disciples of every living human on the planet earth, a MANDATE given to each Christian (not a sort of suggestion we are expected to ignore). BUT, BUT, BUT...... our NOT doing what we are commanded to do does not save us. Nor need it - since we are CHRISTians and thus have The SAVIOR who forgives...... saves.


When the two are CONFUSED, you end up promoting modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism - and destroying (or at least greatly endangering) the VERY POINT of CHRISTianity: we NEED saving..... we have the SAVIOR. When CHRISTianity is abandoned and in its place we echo MORMONISM'S "Do your best and God will overlook the rest" (this comes from the Book of Mormon AND the Koran - not, not, repeat NOT from the Christian Bible!), then Houston - we have a very big problem. When CHRISTianity is abandoned and in its place we echo BHAKTI HINDUISM's "God helps us become good enough - we just gotta tap that help and do it" (which comes from BHAKTI HINDUISM, not the Christian Bible!), then Houston - we have a very big problem.




Yes..... LOTS of things are true. Just don't confuse the application of those. Yes, it's true that a car needs some kind of a power-plant (engine, motor, whatever) AND brakes. But they do NOT have the same function, they do NOT supply the same thing. Saying, "you gotta apply the brakes to make the car go" is wrong. True - brakes and engine are needed - but not for the same thing. Brakes do not make the car go. They are necessary - but not for propulsion. When the topic is propulsion, it's confusing at best to mention brakes (especially dwelling on it in lieu of mentioning the engine!!). Especially when this dwelling serves to diminish the role of the engine (even if unintentionally). Follow?



Example: I was born (by C-Section) on January 23, 1988. I had nothing to do with it. I did not give myself life (God did - mediately via my parents). I did not cause myself to live (God did). I didn't not cause myself to be a human being. I did not cause myself to be born. All these were GIFTS to me..... GIVEN to me.... the "work" of OTHERS. BUT, once I was born (and thus FULLY a human!!!!! FULLY a human!!!!!!) almost immediately, I was called to grow, to mature, to become a civil (not necessarily PERFECT), contributing, responsible, caring person (a process I'm still working on, lol). BOTH are true! What is NOT true is: "I'm alive because I was a good enough student." "I'm a human because I usually obeyed by parents." "I breathe because I have a good job." Do you see how false that is, how misleading it is, how it destroys the affirmation that God GIVES life, that we are a creation of God? In the same way, insisting we are saved BECAUSE we sorta, kinda TRY to keep the Law (but fail)....... insisting that we are saved because of OUR works, OUR accomplishments, OUR surrendering, OUR trying, OUR.... OUR...... OUR...... is absurd, confusing, and just plain WRONG. And of course, an abandonment of CHRISTianity.




When the discussion is justification (narrow) - "salvation" in Protestant parlance - then the ONLY thing to mention is CHRIST, who is THE one and only and exclusive SAVIOR. He GIVES salvation. He GIVES spiritual life. He BESTOWS on us the position of Christian, child of God. ANY mention of self - of self being good enough, of self trying sorta, kinda, sometimes hard enough - that ( at best) confuses things and far, far, far more likely - destroys Christianity and promotes instead Mormonism, modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism. Such may be unintentional but it's exactly, precisely what happens, what results.




Nothing is more important.....



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah




.
 
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psalms 91

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Out of here till we can properly discuss all and not narrow or whatever term you wish to use. It is misleading and confusing, not to me but to those who may not know that we are commanded to do things. Yes, Christ makes His abode with us but sin enough and grieve the spirit enough and He will leave just as God left the temple in the Old, we are the temple right?
 

Josiah

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Out of here till we can properly discuss all and not narrow or whatever term you wish to use. It is misleading and confusing, not to me but to those who may not know that we are commanded to do things. Yes, Christ makes His abode with us but sin enough and grieve the spirit enough and He will leave just as God left the temple in the Old, we are the temple right?


Bill -



I invite you to read the post two above, just above yours, # 63. IMO, you've hit on EXACTLY the problem: some can't/won't be precise but insist on mixing, blending, confusing, entangling DIFFERENT issues and truths - which not only ends up denying the truths themselves but results in what is at least very, very dangerous to Christianity or an actual denounciation of Christianity and promotion instead of Mormonism, modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism on this point - however unintentional. Again, this is all laid out very carefully and fully in post # 63.


And Bill, the title of this thread is NOT: "Is it possible for us to wreck our justification?" If you want to discuss that issue, I invite you to start a thread on that: you and I may be on the same "side" on that but that's a whole other issue than this one. When a poster CONFUSES issues, MIXES UP truths, MISAPPLIES truths, it's misleading and confusing at best and (sadly, more likely) endangering or destroying the very heart of Christianity. This thread is about justification (narrow) and Christianity says that Jesus is the Savior. Not you or me. Not that Jesus is PART Savior. Not that Jesus is the POSSIBILITY-MAKER but not Savior. Not that Jesus is the ENABLER but not Savior. Justification doesn't depend on self (making Jesus a joke). Again, I invite you to read and consider # 63. NOTHING could be more important in Christianity than the CLEAR, focused, affirmation that JESUS is THE Savior - not in any sense, way or manner you or me. THAT is THE very issue that makes Christianity Christianity - it all stands or falls on that point. Insisting .... even remotely implying (even unintentionally) that Christianity is wrong about that and that Mormonism, modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism are right on justification is - IMO - serious, and must not stand.



- Josiah





.
 
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Lamb

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Out of here till we can properly discuss all and not narrow or whatever term you wish to use. It is misleading and confusing, not to me but to those who may not know that we are commanded to do things. Yes, Christ makes His abode with us but sin enough and grieve the spirit enough and He will leave just as God left the temple in the Old, we are the temple right?

Bill I thought you said here (or in another thread?) that you don't have to do anything for your salvation.

Like Josiah said, this isn't about what you can do to lose your salvation, that should be in another thread.
 

MoreCoffee

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Those who reject the Savior and the forgiveness won at the cross for salvation reject salvation. How much faith do they have if they still try to "work" for salvation? That's only something God knows.

The unforgiveable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and it's the job of the Holy Spirit to bring a person to faith and strengthen that faith. If someone blasphemes the Holy Spirit, he's rejecting faith. Faith grasps onto the Savior and forgiveness so by blaspheming the Holy Spirit, faith in the Savior and forgiveness of sins is rejected. Working for your own salvation is rejection of the Savior's work.

As I said before though, for those trying to work even a little bit, how much faith do they have in the Savior that will save them since their own desires to work for heaven is also pulling them in the wrong direction.

Does you reply mean that folk who think they contribute to their salvation (albeit by the grace of God) are going to hell?
 

Lamb

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Josiah

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Does you reply mean that folk who think they contribute to their salvation (albeit by the grace of God) are going to hell?

Lamm responded to that diversion in post # 59. I did in post # 60.

You might want to read post # 63.




.
 

MoreCoffee

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It isn't the concept of "saved by God's grace alone through faith alone - faith itself being a grace given without the prior consent or cooperation of the receiver and without any human work preceding it or any human work enhancing it and thus becoming a means by which a human contributes to his/her own salvation or contributes to him/her self remaining saved" that is difficult it is just that such a concept is not what is being said by those who appear to be advocating some concept that involves nothing human as a contributing factor in human salvation. Nevertheless those advocating salvation entirely and exclusively wrought by God keep saying that "one cannot be saved without <insert concept here>". For example something like one or more of these statements appears to be what is stated by advocates for an entirely God wrought salvation yet making any of these statements means that humans do in fact contribute to their own salvation,
  • "one cannot be saved apart from belief/faith in Jesus Christ",
  • "one cannot be saved without accepting that salvation is entirely wrought by God and not by humans in any way whatever",
  • "one must accept Jesus Christ as Lord as well as saviour to be saved" (this last is from John MacArthur of Grace Community Church and Grace To You on the web).
Yet Reformed churches teach something along the lines of
"The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ [alone without admixture of human cooperation of any kind] in their hearts" (from the Westminster confession of faith - insert within [] is provided by myself)
which appears to mean that the uninformed (for example, aboriginal Australians before the arrival of European missionaries) would be condemned to hell having not believed in Jesus Christ - of whom they had not heard. And it appears that those in this forum who are advocating salvation as wrought by God alone exclusive of any human cooperation and/or contribution would need to say something like the same regarding Australian Aboriginals prior to European missions arriving in 1788 AD. Similarly people with insufficient mental capacity for belief/faith in Jesus Christ for whatever reason would also be hell bound unless the necessity of belief/faith were waived or unless it is asserted that such persons have the grace of faith despite being incapable of indicating its presence. This would appear to make sacramental baptism ineffective unless and until belief/faith in Jesus Christ arises.

Anyway, what I am asking for is unequivocal affirmation or denial of the concept mentioned above, namely, that humans are exclusively saved by God's grace alone through faith alone - faith itself being a grace given without the prior consent or cooperation of the receiver and without any human work preceding it or any human work enhancing it and thus becoming a means by which a human contributes to his/her own salvation or contributes to him/her self remaining saved. And that as a consequence belief/faith in Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary for salvation and yet is not a human act of any kind - neither by cooperating with or adding to the grace gifts of God.
 
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pinacled

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Yet there are some
That would attempt to damm the flow of living water like a beast witout regard for any of his work.
A child should know better than to interfere and wthold what has been freely given .

Yes of course Mary was greeeted with the fearfull salute by Gabriel. Telling her she was f ull. Of hidden grace that no theif can steal.

Yet so many here in this forum. And families abroad suffer by reason of deafness. Around the globe countless people are set apart by reason of oppresion.
And these same people that hold dear to the promise will find strength very soon. For our Lord has planned will unfold.

No man, woman, or child that sets their eyes upward will stand.
 

Josiah

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It isn't the concept of "saved by God's grace alone through faith alone - faith itself being a grace given without the prior consent or cooperation of the receiver and without any human work preceding it or any human work enhancing it and thus becoming a means by which a human contributes to his/her own salvation or contributes to him/her self remaining saved" that is difficult it is just that such a concept is not what is being said by those who appear to be advocating some concept that involves nothing human as a contributing factor in human salvation. Nevertheless those advocating salvation entirely and exclusively wrought by God keep saying that "one cannot be saved without <insert concept here>". For example something like one or more of these statements appears to be what is stated by advocates for an entirely God wrought salvation yet making any of these statements means that humans do in fact contribute to their own salvation,
  • "one cannot be saved apart from belief/faith in Jesus Christ",
  • "one cannot be saved without accepting that salvation is entirely wrought by God and not by humans in any way whatever",
  • "one must accept Jesus Christ as Lord as well as saviour to be saved" (this last is from John MacArthur of Grace Community Church and Grace To You on the web).
Yet Reformed churches teach something along the lines of
"The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ [alone without admixture of human cooperation of any kind] in their hearts" (from the Westminster confession of faith - insert within [] is provided by myself)
which appears to mean that the uninformed (for example, aboriginal Australians before the arrival of European missionaries) would be condemned to hell having not believed in Jesus Christ - of whom they had not heard. And it appears that those in this forum who are advocating salvation as wrought by God alone exclusive of any human cooperation and/or contribution would need to say something like the same regarding Australian Aboriginals prior to European missions arriving in 1788 AD. Similarly people with insufficient mental capacity for belief/faith in Jesus Christ for whatever reason would also be hell bound unless the necessity of belief/faith were waived or unless it is asserted that such persons have the grace of faith despite being incapable of indicating its presence. This would appear to make sacramental baptism ineffective unless and until belief/faith in Jesus Christ arises.

Anyway, what I am asking for is unequivocal affirmation or denial of the concept mentioned above, namely, that humans are exclusively saved by God's grace alone through faith alone - faith itself being a grace given without the prior consent or cooperation of the receiver and without any human work preceding it or any human work enhancing it and thus becoming a means by which a human contributes to his/her own salvation or contributes to him/her self remaining saved. And that as a consequence belief/faith in Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary for salvation and yet is not a human act of any kind - neither by cooperating with or adding to the grace gifts of God.



Try this:


Answer this question, clearly and definitively: WHO is the Savior (in the sense of justification narrow)?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all; not now, not ever; not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely, sufficiently wrapped up in Jesus since Jesus is THE Savior. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing, HIS accomplishment. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience. His holiness, His work. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR surrendering. YOUR willing. YOU. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

Which is it? Try answering that. Clearly, definitively, without equivocation.


Now.... if you believe that Jesus is the PART Savior and you are the PART Savior (you having the part that actually is effective).... then Jesus is not the Savior. If you believe that Jesus is not the Savior but rather just makes salvation possible (as some of my Catholic teachers taught me) then you don't believe Jesus is the Savior but the possibility-maker - you are the one that actually effects it. And if you believe that Jesus is not the Savior but rather empowers, enables, assists you in saving yourself (as the other Catholic teachers taught me) then Jesus is not the Savior - you are (you simply stand with Mormons, Jews, Muslims and Bhatki Hindus in noting you can't save yourself without divine enabling).




Pax soli Christi



- Josiah




PS I'm not a Calvinist and have no desire or qualifications to defend it. Lamm is not a Calvinist, either, btw.




.
 
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Lamb

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It isn't the concept of "saved by God's grace alone through faith alone - faith itself being a grace given without the prior consent or cooperation of the receiver and without any human work preceding it or any human work enhancing it and thus becoming a means by which a human contributes to his/her own salvation or contributes to him/her self remaining saved" that is difficult it is just that such a concept is not what is being said by those who appear to be advocating some concept that involves nothing human as a contributing factor in human salvation. Nevertheless those advocating salvation entirely and exclusively wrought by God keep saying that "one cannot be saved without <insert concept here>". For example something like one or more of these statements appears to be what is stated by advocates for an entirely God wrought salvation yet making any of these statements means that humans do in fact contribute to their own salvation,
  • "one cannot be saved apart from belief/faith in Jesus Christ",
  • "one cannot be saved without accepting that salvation is entirely wrought by God and not by humans in any way whatever",
  • "one must accept Jesus Christ as Lord as well as saviour to be saved" (this last is from John MacArthur of Grace Community Church and Grace To You on the web).
Yet Reformed churches teach something along the lines of
"The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ [alone without admixture of human cooperation of any kind] in their hearts" (from the Westminster confession of faith - insert within [] is provided by myself)
which appears to mean that the uninformed (for example, aboriginal Australians before the arrival of European missionaries) would be condemned to hell having not believed in Jesus Christ - of whom they had not heard. And it appears that those in this forum who are advocating salvation as wrought by God alone exclusive of any human cooperation and/or contribution would need to say something like the same regarding Australian Aboriginals prior to European missions arriving in 1788 AD. Similarly people with insufficient mental capacity for belief/faith in Jesus Christ for whatever reason would also be hell bound unless the necessity of belief/faith were waived or unless it is asserted that such persons have the grace of faith despite being incapable of indicating its presence. This would appear to make sacramental baptism ineffective unless and until belief/faith in Jesus Christ arises.

Anyway, what I am asking for is unequivocal affirmation or denial of the concept mentioned above, namely, that humans are exclusively saved by God's grace alone through faith alone - faith itself being a grace given without the prior consent or cooperation of the receiver and without any human work preceding it or any human work enhancing it and thus becoming a means by which a human contributes to his/her own salvation or contributes to him/her self remaining saved. And that as a consequence belief/faith in Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary for salvation and yet is not a human act of any kind - neither by cooperating with or adding to the grace gifts of God.

Scripture tells us that salvation is not by man's works. Ephesians 2:9

That should be enough proof to tell you that it's entirely God's work.
 

MoreCoffee

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I can see that no direct answer is going to be given to my question. It's not too hard to see why.
 

psalms 91

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Here is a direct answer, you need to know Jesus personally, in your heart, not just in your mind. Jesus is what we need to know
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:



MoreCoffee -



Try this:


Answer this question, clearly and definitively: WHO is the SAVIOR? (in the sense of justification narrow)


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all; not now, not ever; not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely, sufficiently wrapped up in Jesus since Jesus is THE Savior. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing, HIS accomplishment. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience. His holiness, His work. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR surrendering. YOUR willing. YOU. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

Which is it? Try answering that. Clearly, definitively, without equivocation.


Now.... if you believe that Jesus is the PART Savior and you are the PART Savior (you having the part that actually is effective).... then Jesus is not the Savior. If you believe that Jesus is not the Savior but rather just makes salvation possible (as some of my Catholic teachers taught me) then you don't believe Jesus is the Savior but the possibility-maker - you are the one that actually effects it. And if you believe that Jesus is not the Savior but rather empowers, enables, assists you in saving yourself (as the other Catholic teachers taught me) then Jesus is not the Savior - you are (you simply stand with Mormons, Jews, Muslims and Bhatki Hindus in noting you can't save yourself without divine enabling).




Pax soli Christi



- Josiah



.




I can see that no direct answer is going to be given to my question. It's not too hard to see why.


I notice that you again give no direct, definitive, unambiguous answer to this EXTREMELY important question. Is it hard to understand why?




.
 

Lamb

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I can see that no direct answer is going to be given to my question. It's not too hard to see why.

Answers HAVE been given to your question with biblical passages to back it up.
 

Josiah

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More Coffee -

See post # 76.



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MoreCoffee

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Does one need to know anything, anything at all, to be received into heaven?
 

Rens

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Does one need to know anything, anything at all, to be received into heaven?

Yes that you have to repent from your sin, ask Him to forgive and cleanse you, that God raised Jesus from the dead and maybe some other things, forgive those who sinned against you, believe Jesus is Lord.
 
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