What do you need to know to get to heaven?

[Alithis]

lol i asked a question . and the responses are all questions .

what i preach is rather well documented . lets see what others actually are saying / i entered the thread with then statement that ..i think it is much "more important that we preach what the lord Jesus has commanded us to preach ."
and the reason for this is that if we go around declaring what may or may not save a person whose death is imminent ,what good is that to the majority of converts whose death is NOT imminent.being most of them . death bed conversions appear to be extremely few in number and rather difficult to ask the person of the genuine nature of their conversion if they are dead , so do we take the extreme example and set it up as the acceptable manner in which a person is to be saved ?
what did the lord Jesus say ? what did he command ,,,, go , heal the sick preach the gospel drive out demons make disciples, baptizing them in my name AND teach them to observe (put into practice)all that i have commanded you .
he did not say .. go and tell people the bare minimum requirements to be saved -does this mean they wont be saved if that is all they have to go on? nope . it means we would find ourselves casts out for our willful unrepentant disobedience ,if, that is all we ever did in response to what he commanded us to do . tell them the bare minimum ,fail to disciple them and fail to teach them to observe all he has commanded .
of course this is difficult for so many to do when they themselves have not been taught it .

 

[Alithis]

Hi Alithis,

What in your opinion do you believe that Jesus has done?

Good to see you on the discussion.

well , i asked the question ..... so i'll await reply

 

[Lamb]

Lets see, satan got kicked out for pride and disobedience so I seriously doubt that God is going to allow rebellion (disobedience) back into heaven

Satan wanted to make himself like the Lord Most High (Isaiah 14:14).

 

[psalms 91]

Satan wanted to make himself like the Lord Most High (Isaiah 14:14).

As I said pride and what is disobedience but thinking my way is better

 

[Josiah]

l.i think it is much "more important that we preach what the lord Jesus has commanded us to preach ."

Perhaps, but that's not at all the issue of this thread. Such is derailing.

if we go around declaring what may or may not save a person whose death is imminent

The issue here is not physical healing (and thus preventing physical death), it's getting into heaven (even if one died entirely free of disease but hit by a very big Mack truck). They are unrelated issues.



To the thread, I gave my pov in post # 5




- Josiah





.

 

[Josiah]

Bill -


I don't deny that there are several things involved in how WE become justified.... there is some mystery involved (for 2000 years, Christians have used that word in this context). HOWEVER (and this is critical, absolutely essential) anything that blurs the point that Jesus is the Savior must - foundationally - must be rejected and must be wrong. By even just implying that WE do x,y,z and THEREFORE we are saved makes the Savior just self. It means looking in the mirror for the Savior, giving self the credit. It foundationally rejects and repudiates the central, keystone point of Christianity that Jesus IS THE Savior and aligns soteriolgy with that of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism: that we are justified by what WE do (albeit with divine help and empowerment); "hoop jumping/works righteousness" view of salvation. THIS is why Luther, Calvin and all the Reformers avoided the kind of language you are using - it undermines the central, foundational, keystone point that Jesus is the Savior (not me) and thus all Christianity collapses and we are left with just a minor revision to Judaism, akin much more with Islam than orthodox Christianity: Looking to Christ has been replaced with looking in the mirror at a meritious, empowered, glorious, good-enough ME, ultimately we enter heaven because of what WE did (the central point of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism and why those religions reject Christ as THE SAVIOR).

IMO, no one CAN ask for forgiveness in the Name of Jesus ("repent") apart from already having the divine gift of faith, and the Bible itself says that no one can ask Jesus into their heart without previously having the divine gift of faith. Indeed, the Bible says that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to do ANYTHING - anything - anything whatsoever in this context - apart from HAVING faith. To even just imply that FIRST we do x,y,x and THUS we are saved is to destroy Christianity, to abandon Christian justification. Yes, again, there is MYSTERY here. We don't fully understand how all these aspects interrelate (or even if they do): But this must not be abandoned, this must in no way be undermined, this in no way can be placed into question: the Savior is NOT me. Not at all. Not a bit. Not ever. The job is taken. Salvation is what JESUS does (fully, sufficiently, wholly, completely) since Jesus is the Savior. To even imply such is not the case is to destroy Christianity and to embrace instead some from of modern Judaism, Islam and/or Bhatki Hinduism.


Answer this: WHO is the SAVIOR? Answer that - clearly, definitively, singularly - in your heart.

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you, not me - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely, sufficiently wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. Not your obedience, not your righteouness, not your prayers or repentance or decisions or invitations, not your perfections, not your surrendering, not your anything, not YOU. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

When it comes to salvation (justification in the narrow sense) you have two places you can look/trust/rely: The Cross or the mirror. Who is on the Cross, who is in the mirror.

Which is it? Try answering that - clearly, distinctively, definitively, singularly, boldly - in your heart and mind and soul. If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. If you give the Christian answer, then the central point of Christianity is affirmed and all of Christianity comes into focus. True: you too will join with all Christians over the past 2000 years embracing a bit of mystery (we can't wrap our puny, fallen brains around EXACTLY all the DETAILS of HOW Jesus saves) but that's okay.... better to deny we've totally wrapped God around our sinful, fallen brain than to destroy the keystone of Christianity.

NOTHING is more important.



Pax Christi



- Josiah






.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The answers thus far provided appear to mean that

• One must know about Jesus Christ before one can be saved by him
• One must be obedient to Christ's commands in order to be saved
• One cannot do anything to aid in one's own salvation
• There is absolutely nothing that one must do or know or think in order to be saved
• God does everything thus one is a passive recipient of what God does for one
• One is dead in trespasses and sins hence one is unable to do anything contributing to one's salvation

These are the views offered so far. The views appear to be inconsistent. Is a consensus possible?

 

[Alithis]

The answers thus far provided appear to mean that

• One must know about Jesus Christ before one can be saved by him
• One must be obedient to Christ's commands in order to be saved
• One cannot do anything to aid in one's own salvation
• There is absolutely nothing that one must do or know or think in order to be saved
• God does everything thus one is a passive recipient of what God does for one
• One is dead in trespasses and sins hence one is unable to do anything contributing to one's salvation

These are the views offered so far. The views appear to be inconsistent. Is a consensus possible?

Sure..
There is grace as for the thief on the cross..whose death was imminant.
And for the rest of us..we must do as the good news instructs.
The grace for us is that the good news was made possible in christ. To disobey it is to perish .

 

[Alithis]

Bill -


I don't deny that there are several things involved in how WE become justified.... there is some mystery involved (for 2000 years, Christians have used that word in this context). HOWEVER (and this is critical, absolutely essential) anything that blurs the point that Jesus is the Savior must - foundationally - must be rejected and must be wrong. By even just implying that WE do x,y,z and THEREFORE we are saved makes the Savior just self. It means looking in the mirror for the Savior, giving self the credit. It foundationally rejects and repudiates the central, keystone point of Christianity that Jesus IS THE Savior and aligns soteriolgy with that of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism: that we are justified by what WE do (albeit with divine help and empowerment); "hoop jumping/works righteousness" view of salvation. THIS is why Luther, Calvin and all the Reformers avoided the kind of language you are using - it undermines the central, foundational, keystone point that Jesus is the Savior (not me) and thus all Christianity collapses and we are left with just a minor revision to Judaism, akin much more with Islam than orthodox Christianity: Looking to Christ has been replaced with looking in the mirror at a meritious, empowered, glorious, good-enough ME, ultimately we enter heaven because of what WE did (the central point of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism and why those religions reject Christ as THE SAVIOR).

IMO, no one CAN ask for forgiveness in the Name of Jesus ("repent") apart from already having the divine gift of faith, and the Bible itself says that no one can ask Jesus into their heart without previously having the divine gift of faith. Indeed, the Bible says that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to do ANYTHING - anything - anything whatsoever in this context - apart from HAVING faith. To even just imply that FIRST we do x,y,x and THUS we are saved is to destroy Christianity, to abandon Christian justification. Yes, again, there is MYSTERY here. We don't fully understand how all these aspects interrelate (or even if they do): But this must not be abandoned, this must in no way be undermined, this in no way can be placed into question: the Savior is NOT me. Not at all. Not a bit. Not ever. The job is taken. Salvation is what JESUS does (fully, sufficiently, wholly, completely) since Jesus is the Savior. To even imply such is not the case is to destroy Christianity and to embrace instead some from of modern Judaism, Islam and/or Bhatki Hinduism.


Answer this: WHO is the SAVIOR? Answer that - clearly, definitively, singularly - in your heart.

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you, not me - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely, sufficiently wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. Not your obedience, not your righteouness, not your prayers or repentance or decisions or invitations, not your perfections, not your surrendering, not your anything, not YOU. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

When it comes to salvation (justification in the narrow sense) you have two places you can look/trust/rely: The Cross or the mirror. Who is on the Cross, who is in the mirror.

Which is it? Try answering that - clearly, distinctively, definitively, singularly, boldly - in your heart and mind and soul. If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. If you give the Christian answer, then the central point of Christianity is affirmed and all of Christianity comes into focus. True: you too will join with all Christians over the past 2000 years embracing a bit of mystery (we can't wrap our puny, fallen brains around EXACTLY all the DETAILS of HOW Jesus saves) but that's okay.... better to deny we've totally wrapped God around our sinful, fallen brain than to destroy the keystone of Christianity.

NOTHING is more important.



Pax Christi



.

The job of the saviour is done.
The saviour has commanded the goodnews be preached.... Why?

 

[Lamb]

The job of the saviour is done.
The saviour has commanded the goodnews be preached.... Why?

The good news is preached to others because God works by His Word to bring faith to other so they receive the Savior.

 

[Josiah]

Bill -


I don't deny that there are several things involved in how WE become justified.... there is some mystery involved (for 2000 years, Christians have used that word in this context). HOWEVER (and this is critical, absolutely essential) anything that blurs the point that Jesus is the Savior must - foundationally - must be rejected and must be wrong. By even just implying that WE do x,y,z and THEREFORE we are saved makes the Savior just self. It means looking in the mirror for the Savior, giving self the credit. It foundationally rejects and repudiates the central, keystone point of Christianity that Jesus IS THE Savior and aligns soteriolgy with that of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism: that we are justified by what WE do (albeit with divine help and empowerment); "hoop jumping/works righteousness" view of salvation. THIS is why Luther, Calvin and all the Reformers avoided the kind of language you are using - it undermines the central, foundational, keystone point that Jesus is the Savior (not me) and thus all Christianity collapses and we are left with just a minor revision to Judaism, akin much more with Islam than orthodox Christianity: Looking to Christ has been replaced with looking in the mirror at a meritious, empowered, glorious, good-enough ME, ultimately we enter heaven because of what WE did (the central point of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism and why those religions reject Christ as THE SAVIOR).

IMO, no one CAN ask for forgiveness in the Name of Jesus ("repent") apart from already having the divine gift of faith, and the Bible itself says that no one can ask Jesus into their heart without previously having the divine gift of faith. Indeed, the Bible says that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to do ANYTHING - anything - anything whatsoever in this context - apart from HAVING faith. To even just imply that FIRST we do x,y,x and THUS we are saved is to destroy Christianity, to abandon Christian justification. Yes, again, there is MYSTERY here. We don't fully understand how all these aspects interrelate (or even if they do): But this must not be abandoned, this must in no way be undermined, this in no way can be placed into question: the Savior is NOT me. Not at all. Not a bit. Not ever. The job is taken. Salvation is what JESUS does (fully, sufficiently, wholly, completely) since Jesus is the Savior. To even imply such is not the case is to destroy Christianity and to embrace instead some from of modern Judaism, Islam and/or Bhatki Hinduism.



Answer this: WHO is the SAVIOR? Answer that - clearly, definitively, singularly - in your heart.

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you, not me - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely, sufficiently wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness, His sinlessness. Not you. Not yours. Not your obedience, not your righteouness, not your prayers or repentance or decisions or invitations, not your perfections, not your surrendering, not your anything, not YOU. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.


IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR sinlessness. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


When it comes to salvation (justification in the narrow sense) you have two places you can look/trust/rely: The Cross or the mirror. Who is on the Cross OR who is in the mirror.


Which is it? Try answering that - clearly, distinctively, definitively, singularly, boldly - in your heart and mind and soul. If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. If you give the Christian answer, then the central point of Christianity is affirmed and all of Christianity comes into focus. True: you too will join with all Christians over the past 2000 years embracing a bit of mystery (we can't wrap our puny, fallen brains around EXACTLY all the DETAILS of HOW Jesus saves) but that's okay.... better to deny we've totally wrapped God around our sinful, fallen brain than to destroy the keystone of Christianity.


NOTHING is more important.




Pax Christi



.

The job of the saviour is done.
The saviour has commanded the goodnews be preached.... Why?

Well.... for sinless folks like you, He's irrelevant and of no use at all. But for the rest of the 7.4 billion people of the planet (including all here at CH except you), we NEED Him (present tense). We desperately and constantly NEED His mercy, His love, His grace, His Blood, His Cross, His forgiveness, His salvation.... HIM. We need to look to HIM for forgiveness, not look in the mirror at how goody-goody self thinks self is, too good to need Jesus. Thus the command that the Gospel be preached (present tense) to ALL (well, all who NEED it - which, according to you, exempts you).


Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6AaZIL_v-k





To the thread, I stated my pov in post # 5.




- Josiah




.

 

[Josiah]

Bump.....

Bill -


I don't deny that there are several things involved in how WE become justified.... there is some mystery involved (for 2000 years, Christians have used that word in this context). HOWEVER (and this is critical, absolutely essential) anything that blurs the point that Jesus is the Savior must - foundationally - must be rejected and must be wrong. By even just implying that WE do x,y,z and THEREFORE we are saved makes the Savior just self. It means looking in the mirror for the Savior, giving self the credit. It foundationally rejects and repudiates the central, keystone point of Christianity that Jesus IS THE Savior and aligns soteriolgy with that of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism: that we are justified by what WE do (albeit with divine help and empowerment); "hoop jumping/works righteousness" view of salvation. THIS is why Luther, Calvin and all the Reformers avoided the kind of language you are using - it undermines the central, foundational, keystone point that Jesus is the Savior (not me) and thus all Christianity collapses and we are left with just a minor revision to Judaism, akin much more with Islam than orthodox Christianity: Looking to Christ has been replaced with looking in the mirror at a meritious, empowered, glorious, good-enough ME, ultimately we enter heaven because of what WE did (the central point of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism and why those religions reject Christ as THE SAVIOR).

IMO, no one CAN ask for forgiveness in the Name of Jesus ("repent") apart from already having the divine gift of faith, and the Bible itself says that no one can ask Jesus into their heart without previously having the divine gift of faith. Indeed, the Bible says that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to do ANYTHING - anything - anything whatsoever in this context - apart from HAVING faith. To even just imply that FIRST we do x,y,x and THUS we are saved is to destroy Christianity, to abandon Christian justification. Yes, again, there is MYSTERY here. We don't fully understand how all these aspects interrelate (or even if they do): But this must not be abandoned, this must in no way be undermined, this in no way can be placed into question: the Savior is NOT me. Not at all. Not a bit. Not ever. The job is taken. Salvation is what JESUS does (fully, sufficiently, wholly, completely) since Jesus is the Savior. To even imply such is not the case is to destroy Christianity and to embrace instead some from of modern Judaism, Islam and/or Bhatki Hinduism.



Answer this: WHO is the SAVIOR? Answer that - clearly, definitively, singularly - in your heart.

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you, not me - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely, sufficiently wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness, His sinlessness. Not you. Not yours. Not your obedience, not your righteouness, not your prayers or repentance or decisions or invitations, not your perfections, not your surrendering, not your anything, not YOU. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.


IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR sinlessness. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


When it comes to salvation (justification in the narrow sense) you have two places you can look/trust/rely: The Cross or the mirror. Who is on the Cross OR who is in the mirror.


Which is it? Try answering that - clearly, distinctively, definitively, singularly, boldly - in your heart and mind and soul. If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. If you give the Christian answer, then the central point of Christianity is affirmed and all of Christianity comes into focus. True: you too will join with all Christians over the past 2000 years embracing a bit of mystery (we can't wrap our puny, fallen brains around EXACTLY all the DETAILS of HOW Jesus saves) but that's okay.... better to deny we've totally wrapped God around our sinful, fallen brain than to destroy the keystone of Christianity.


NOTHING is more important.




Pax Christi





Alithis -


Well.... for sinless folks like you, He's irrelevant and of no use at all. But for the rest of the 7.4 billion people of the planet (including all here at CH except you), we NEED Him (present tense). We desperately and constantly NEED His mercy, His love, His grace, His Blood, His Cross, His forgiveness, His salvation.... HIM. We need to look to HIM for forgiveness, not look in the mirror at how goody-goody self thinks self is, too good to need Jesus. Thus the command that the Gospel be preached (present tense) to ALL (well, all who NEED it - which, according to you, exempts you).


Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6AaZIL_v-k





To the thread, I stated my pov in post # 5.




- Josiah




.

.

 

[psalms 91]

I didnt miss it the first time

 

[Josiah]

Bill: Is there a reason why you chose to not respond to it, to evade it? Not that you need to publicly disclose such.

 

[psalms 91]

Bill: Is there a reason why you chose to not respond to it, to evade it? Not that you need to publicly disclose such.

Mainly because I have addressed this before and also because you and I dont really disagree. Jesus is the saviour foirst and foremost, it is the rest that seems to be a problem. My bible tells me that once saved we are to walk in obedience to the saviour and do certain things, that seems to be the problem. I will look to the bible to guide me if you think any different and I seriously doubt you will change my view or I yours but I do think we are a lot closer than you think

 

[Lamb]

Mainly because I have addressed this before and also because you and I dont really disagree. Jesus is the saviour foirst and foremost, it is the rest that seems to be a problem. My bible tells me that once saved we are to walk in obedience to the saviour and do certain things, that seems to be the problem. I will look to the bible to guide me if you think any different and I seriously doubt you will change my view or I yours but I do think we are a lot closer than you think

Bill, you and Josiah both agree that Jesus is the Savior. Yet, Josiah says that his walk as a disciple earns him nothing toward salvation and the reason for that is because Jesus is the Savior. I've seen some of your posts where you have indicated that you play a part in your salvation? Is that how you believe?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Bill, you and Josiah both agree that Jesus is the Savior. Yet, Josiah says that his walk as a disciple earns him nothing toward salvation and the reason for that is because Jesus is the Savior. I've seen some of your posts where you have indicated that you play a part in your salvation? Is that how you believe?

If somebody believed that he/she plays a part in their salvation will they go to hell for it? If not then what if they believed that salvation was entirely dependent on the part they play, will they go to hell for that?

 

[psalms 91]

Bill, you and Josiah both agree that Jesus is the Savior. Yet, Josiah says that his walk as a disciple earns him nothing toward salvation and the reason for that is because Jesus is the Savior. I've seen some of your posts where you have indicated that you play a part in your salvation? Is that how you believe?

I believe that we are commanded to be obedient to walk in the spirit to help the poor, to preach the giospel. No, I dont believe any of this earns salvation but I do believe it can play a part in losing it if disobedient

 

[Lamb]

If somebody believed that he/she plays a part in their salvation will they go to hell for it? If not then what if they believed that salvation was entirely dependent on the part they play, will they go to hell for that?

Those who reject the Savior and the forgiveness won at the cross for salvation reject salvation. How much faith do they have if they still try to "work" for salvation? That's only something God knows.

The unforgiveable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and it's the job of the Holy Spirit to bring a person to faith and strengthen that faith. If someone blasphemes the Holy Spirit, he's rejecting faith. Faith grasps onto the Savior and forgiveness so by blaspheming the Holy Spirit, faith in the Savior and forgiveness of sins is rejected. Working for your own salvation is rejection of the Savior's work.

As I said before though, for those trying to work even a little bit, how much faith do they have in the Savior that will save them since their own desires to work for heaven is also pulling them in the wrong direction.

 

[Josiah]

If somebody believed that he/she plays a part in their salvation will they go to hell for it? If not then what if they believed that salvation was entirely dependent on the part they play, will they go to hell for that?

THE fundamental, central, key, foundation teaching/point of Christianity is that Jesus is THE Savior. Other religions teach that either we don't need to be saved or that ultimately, we save ourselves and thus no supplied, divine SAVIOR is needed. Some (Islam, Bhakti Hinduism and some forms of modern Judaism) believe that divine HELP or ASSISTANCE is needed and is available - but God the helper is not the same as Christ the Savior. Thus, what is the CHRISTIAN religion is the affirmation that we NEED the Savior (we cannot justify self - even with help, thus we are not Bhakti Hindus for example) AND that God has supplied that SAVIOR. There are only two places where we can look/trust/rely for our justification (narrow): the Cross or the Mirror. Christianity points us to the Cross, The SAVIOR, the Blood, the Empty Tomb: JESUS. All false, wrong religions point us to our mirror (usually a very, very rose-colored false mirror) encouraging us to trust self (perhaps empowered by God). As a Christian, I'd state that those who look in the mirror are not justified.... if I thought we save ourselves then I'd not be a Christian.



Answer this: WHO is the SAVIOR in terms of justification (narrow)? Answer that - clearly, definitively, singularly - in your heart.

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you, not me - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely, sufficiently wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness, His sinlessness. Not you. Not yours. Not your obedience, not your righteouness, not your prayers or repentance or decisions or invitations, not your perfections, not your surrendering, not your anything, not YOU. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.


IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR sinlessness. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


When it comes to salvation (justification in the narrow sense) there are two places you can look/trust/rely: The Cross OR the mirror. Who is on the Cross OR who is in the mirror.





Sorry for that diversion. Back to the issue of the thread.



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah





.