Under investigation

[MoreCoffee]

oh no! TWEETS!!! The horror!! I'll bet Obama and other presidents have tweeted wrong things too...its his Twitter, he can say whatever he wants.

And CNN is fake news, I hope you know that...

Impeach Donald!

 

[tango]

Not allowing people to say hateful things about their fellow human beings isn't exactly a free-speech issue, it's a decency issue.

But that's exactly what free speech is. It's not free speech if you're not allowed to say something because it might cause offense.

Free speech, by its very definition, must include the right to say things that people find objectionable. If freedom of speech is anything less than true freedom, who gets to decide what speech should be censored?

 

[tango]

Electing Donald is a sign of diminished responsibility. Let us hope it is temporary rather than permanent.

Given the choice between Donald and Hillary it seems to me it's little more than choosing the lesser of two evils. It was truly remarkable how many people I know who usually vote Republican and felt soiled after voting for Donald (which they did purely to keep Hillary out of office) and how many people I know who usually vote Democrat and felt soiled after voting for Hillary (which they did purely in the hope of keeping Donald out). It's quite something when candidates are so disliked even by their own parties, and on that regard neither Donald nor Hillary emerges with much credit.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Given the choice between Donald and Hillary ...

Never heard of independent candidates? Nor Libertarian? Nor Socialist? Surely the ballots offered more than Donald and Hillary.

 

[tango]

Never heard of independent candidates? Nor Libertarian? Nor Socialist? Surely the ballots offered more than Donald and Hillary.

Yes, but in a race between two candidates so widely despised it's easy to see why people would be reluctant to vote for anything other than their usual party line.

Seriously, if you were naturally a Democrat would you vote for Jill Stein knowing that every vote cast for anyone other than Hillary made it more likely that Donald would be elected? And likewise if you were naturally a Republican would you vote for anyone else, knowing it would increase the chance that Hillary would get elected? When large swathes of Democrats clearly didn't like Hillary and large swathes of Republicans clearly didn't like Donald it doesn't take much to imagine just how despised both candidates would be outside of their party.

Had it been a choice between a less disliked Republican candidate and a less disliked Democrat candidate I'd like to think the other candidates might have had a better chance. From what I was reading I was expecting Gary Johnson to poll higher than he did.

I must admit some of the rhetoric did become quite amusing, with Republicans claiming a vote for Gary Johnson was a vote for Hillary and Democrats claiming it was a vote for Donald. It would be good to see a transferable vote in place so people could vote for their preferred candidate without wasting their chance to support a major candidate - it would be interesting to see how many would have voted Johnson, Stein or Castle if their vote was transferable such that they could still support Donald or Hillary if/when their first choice was eliminated. But I suspect it won't happen for that very reason - the status quo allows the main parties to instill the fear that voting for anyone except them means The Other One will get in and the world will end with plagues of locusts o'er the land, or whatever today's doom and gloom warning is.

 

[IACOBVS]

*sigh* ok I have to ask this.....why do you care so much who we elect? Trump's presidency literally doesnt affect you. You live in Canada (or Australia, IDK which) shouldnt you care more about their politics than ours?

At this point I feel like youre just trying to wind up the Trump voters on this forum..though I hope I am wrong.

It affects us. As one of our former Prime Ministers (actually, the father of our current Prime Minister) once said ... and I quote loosely, because I'm too lazy to look it up ... living next to the US is like sleeping with an elephant; one is aware of its every grunt and twitch regardless of its good nature.

Of course we are concerned about the politics of our own nations, however, when the most powerful nation on earth goes insane, it scares the poop out of the rest of us. Maybe you don't realise it, but to the rest of the sane world, last November, the US suddenly looked a lot more like Iran or Saudi Arabia (except with a nuclear weapons and a lot more power, and fundamentalist "Christianity" in charge, than like a stable country.

 

[IACOBVS]

Never heard of independent candidates? Nor Libertarian? Nor Socialist? Surely the ballots offered more than Donald and Hillary.

The US political system will rarely countenance anything other than a choice between to the two dominant parties. The system they have is inherently biased against third party candidates or independent candidates. It's not like the Westminster parliamentary system that you and I so Providentially enjoy under the benevolence of Her Majesty's most gracious reign, Sir Coffee.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Now there are emails that document how a meeting was set up ... about Russian supplied "dirt" on Hillary Clinton.

 

[Josiah]

It affects us. As one of our former Prime Ministers (actually, the father of our current Prime Minister) once said ... and I quote loosely, because I'm too lazy to look it up ... living next to the US is like sleeping with an elephant; one is aware of its every grunt and twitch regardless of its good nature.

Of course we are concerned about the politics of our own nations, however, when the most powerful nation on earth goes insane, it scares the poop out of the rest of us. Maybe you don't realise it, but to the rest of the sane world, last November, the US suddenly looked a lot more like Iran or Saudi Arabia (except with a nuclear weapons and a lot more power, and fundamentalist "Christianity" in charge, than like a stable country.

Understood, but.....



1. Canada and the USA are sovereign nations. Part of "getting along" and respecting each other is acknowledging that. Canada is not a "state" of the USA and the USA is not a province of Canada - we are INDEPENDENT and separate countries. I realize some nations are more influential than others (I have Danish relatives; they like being "under the radar"), but that does not negate the NEED to RESPECT the sovereignty of each other. I tire of those who CONSTANTLY attack the USA for things.... things that often their own sovereign nation is far more "guilty" of (for example, rebuking and condemning the USA for not choosing our executive by pure majority popular vote of all the electorate when the attacker's nation doesn't elect such at all). I've been to perhaps a dozen nations..... I work with a very international group of people... ALL nations have their problems; I think ALL citizens of ALL nations have their hands full. Perhaps citizens of OTHER nations would be more beneficial if they worked on correcting their OWN problems instead of going on and on and on and on about the USA (where they can do nothing about the problem except whine and IGNORE their own country where they perhaps CAN do something). See my point?


2. I'm quite in disagreement that the USA has "gone insane." Our democracy has been around longer than Canada or Australia, we have been tested repeatedly, and our 228 year old Constitution and our 241 year old Republic has done well.... and I don't think deserves the label "insane." We have a controversial president (as we have before) but we are a nation of laws, we embrace the Rule of Law, we are a CONSTITUTIONAL Republic, we've never, ever had an absolute monarchy, never had a dictator, never had a military coup. I don't think we've ever had an "insane" president - but even if we had, the president is not the USA. We have a Congress, we have a Constitution, we have the courts. An insane president cannot impact us the way insane kings or queens have in your system and the British governmental tradition. And our president comes up for re-election and can be "terminated" by such for ANY reason - unlike in some systems where either the person reigns for life or can only be deposed by the government he/she created. And now, no president may serve more than 8 years.


3. IF (and one is innocent until proven guilty) Mr. Trump (or his son) is guilty of some crime, we HAVE a system to deal with such (unlike some countries which are not being rebuked). No one is above the law (unlike the current leaders of some countries which aren't being rebuked) or a long, long, long chain of former leaders of the British tradition (of which Canada is still a part). The very fact that an investigation is going on indicates to me the rebukes others are making are unjustified. Does our justice system work perfectly? By no means, but then it doesn't in your country either; judicial perfection is allusive in ALL nations although I think it "works" as well in the USA as anywhere and better than a lot of places.


4. Trump is not a "fundamentalist Christian." His son in this investigation is actually a Jew. I don't know why you would be so scared of Christianity or why you would seen to group the USA with radical Islamic nations (which so far haven't been rebuked here at CH, just the USA). While the USA has traditionally been Christian (as is equally true of Canada and Australia), there has never been a state-supported national religion (unlike in the British tradition) and the executive of the USA does not head a church (unlike your Queen), and there has never been one dominate denomination here (unlike the British tradition). True, for most of our history, Episcopalians (Anglicans) have been far disproportional in governmental influence in the USA but then that's true in the UK, Canada and Australia, too. There have been "fundamentalist" Christians desiring something of a "divine state" but none of them have been elected to the presidency and very few to congress; their influence has been insignificant (unlike some in your tradition).


Setting the record straight.....


- Josiah



.

 

[tango]

Now there are emails that document how a meeting was set up ... about Russian supplied "dirt" on Hillary Clinton.

Russian supplied "dirt" on Hillary Clinton would fall flat if there weren't sufficient dirt in the first place. It doesn't really work to complain about unfair play if all that has happened is someone else dug up the things you'd rather stayed hidden.

 

[tango]

It affects us. As one of our former Prime Ministers (actually, the father of our current Prime Minister) once said ... and I quote loosely, because I'm too lazy to look it up ... living next to the US is like sleeping with an elephant; one is aware of its every grunt and twitch regardless of its good nature.

Of course we are concerned about the politics of our own nations, however, when the most powerful nation on earth goes insane, it scares the poop out of the rest of us. Maybe you don't realise it, but to the rest of the sane world, last November, the US suddenly looked a lot more like Iran or Saudi Arabia (except with a nuclear weapons and a lot more power, and fundamentalist "Christianity" in charge, than like a stable country.

This "insane" comment really isn't helpful, it looks like little more than hysterical howling because one country elected a candidate when you wish they had elected the other candidate and you don't like it. Europe typically leans further left politically than the US so it's hardly surprising that Europe would prefer to have seen President Hillary than President Donald but howling and making claims that the US looks like some crackpot Islamic theocracy merely makes the howler look foolish and reduces discussion to little more than thinking a political argument is really clever because it uses distortions of names (Killary, Chump etc).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Russian supplied "dirt" on Hillary Clinton would fall flat if there weren't sufficient dirt in the first place. It doesn't really work to complain about unfair play if all that has happened is someone else dug up the things you'd rather stayed hidden.

You keep saying how bad (in your opinion) Hillary is but the investigation is into Donald Jnr and others. How exactly does the alleged wickedness of Hillary make Donald Jnr and company good?

 

[tango]

You keep saying how bad (in your opinion) Hillary is but the investigation is into Donald Jnr and others. How exactly does the alleged wickedness of Hillary make Donald Jnr and company good?

I don't remember saying Donald was good. I merely observed what looks like classic distraction and diversion tactics, shifting focus to the digger rather than examining the dirt.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't remember saying Donald was good. I merely observed what looks like classic distraction and diversion tactics, shifting focus to the digger rather than examining the dirt.

The dirt appears to be receiving help to win an election from a foreign power that the USA government sees as hostile. That is what the current investigation is about so it is the dirt that is being examined not the digger.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Fun with words ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXQzynp_1Lo

 

[tango]

The dirt appears to be receiving help to win an election from a foreign power that the USA government sees as hostile. That is what the current investigation is about so it is the dirt that is being examined not the digger.

The trouble is that if the dirt proves to be true the issue is that the dirt exists, rather than who it was who dug it up.

One thing that is curious is the way the Republicans were worried the election was going to be hacked while the Democrats insisted it couldn't happen but now Trump is President the Democrats are worried about hacking while the Republicans say it was all fair. Funny how people change their tune with the benefit of hindsight.

 

[IACOBVS]

The trouble is that if the dirt proves to be true the issue is that the dirt exists, rather than who it was who dug it up.

One thing that is curious is the way the Republicans were worried the election was going to be hacked while the Democrats insisted it couldn't happen but now Trump is President the Democrats are worried about hacking while the Republicans say it was all fair. Funny how people change their tune with the benefit of hindsight.

Wow! Talk about shifting focus after decrying shifting focus only a few posts up. "rolls eyes"

 

[MoreCoffee]

Wow! Talk about shifting focus after decrying shifting focus only a few posts up. "rolls eyes"

Amen.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Now Donald appears to be checking out his powers to pardon - even himself - for crimes. Maybe it is just another of his incoherent rants on twitter but maybe it is his realisation that he will be needing a pardon to escape jail for crimes he knows he has committed but for which he has not yet been tried.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Such fun!!

:smirk:

Now we have Mr SCARAMUCCI in a bun fight with the chief of staff at the white house. Calling him a expletive-deleted paranoid schizophrenic. It's like at soap opera episode. They appear to hate each other.

Such fun.

Impeach Donald. End the insanity.