the meaning of Baptism

[Albion]

Speaking only for myself, this claim that we see made here often (especially, it seems, from one poster in particular) to the effect that if anyone disagrees for any reason with the speaker, and regardless of what logic or evidence is given in support by the opponent, then what is offered is nothing but what a denomination put into that person's head. It's not even worth considering, therefore.

That is a debate cop out and an insult, an easy way out of not facing up to a discussion. It's a way of dismissing all other POV's once the speaker has lectured the rest of us on what it is that he, personally, believes. And, of course, none of what he himself believes has anything to do with what any denomination teaches. Yeh, right.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Perhaps, but you let others interpret what it says for you and you don't question the legitimacy of their interpretation.

Of course I let others interpret the holy scriptures. I have neither the power nor the desire to force others to not interpret the holy scriptures. But I do not let others interpret for me. Why would I do that? I pay attention to what others say in the Catholic community. For it was not by following fanciful doctrines that the apostles made known to the faithful the power and presence of the Lord Jesus Christ, but the apostles were eyewitnesses of the Lord's greatness. For he received honour and glory from God the Father, whose voice descended to him from the magnificent glory: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to him." Peter, James, and John also heard this voice conveyed from heaven, when they were with him on the holy mountain. And so, Christians have an even firmer prophetic word, to which the faithful would do well to listen, as to a light shining within a dark place, until the day dawns, and the daystar rises, in their hearts. Understand this: that every prophecy of Scripture is not the result from one"s own interpretation. For prophecy was not conveyed by human will at any time. Instead, holy men were speaking about God while inspired by the Holy Spirit. (see 2 Peter 1:16-21)

 

[MennoSota]

Of course I let others interpret the holy scriptures. I have neither the power nor the desire to force others to not interpret the holy scriptures. But I do not let others interpret for me. Why would I do that? I pay attention to what others say in the Catholic community. For it was not by following fanciful doctrines that the apostles made known to the faithful the power and presence of the Lord Jesus Christ, but the apostles were eyewitnesses of the Lord's greatness. For he received honour and glory from God the Father, whose voice descended to him from the magnificent glory: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to him." Peter, James, and John also heard this voice conveyed from heaven, when they were with him on the holy mountain. And so, Christians have an even firmer prophetic word, to which the faithful would do well to listen, as to a light shining within a dark place, until the day dawns, and the daystar rises, in their hearts. Understand this: that every prophecy of Scripture is not the result from one"s own interpretation. For prophecy was not conveyed by human will at any time. Instead, holy men were speaking about God while inspired by the Holy Spirit. (see 2 Peter 1:16-21)

God had the Apostles write so that we might read God's word to us. We need not follow the false teaching of the Roman church when God's word clearly shows that the Roman church has failed to rightly divide the word of God.
The Bereans were commended for questioning the Apostle Paul's teaching and pushing him to prove it from scripture. You would do well to go to your priest and do the same thing. Then...follow scripture over the false teaching of your priest and his leadership.

 

[Lamb]

There have been too many pages for me to find the post but MennoSota accused me of not having read the bible. I can assure him I've read it from cover to cover multiple times. Now, should I return the accusation on you because you don't agree with my beliefs? That's not a proper way to discuss a topic.

 

[user1234]

I don't quite see how context makes the passage teach two or three or more baptisms but I am sure somebody will find a way to arrive at something like two baptisms

The posting of Ephesians 4:1-16 would not be to try to prove out 2 or 3 or more baptisms, but rather to put verse 5 in it's proper context. The erroneous teaching/believing about water-baptism in in this thread is not supported by Eph.4:5.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God had the Apostles write so that we might read God's word to us. ...

I agree. God inspired those who wrote the holy scriptures so that we (the Christian community) might read what God said through the prophets and apostles. Nobody really reads the bible on their own. Firstly because the very concept of "the bible" is a community produced concept and a community effort in publishing. Secondly nobody is a Christian by themselves as if no one before ever was, and no one now is, and every Christians ought to be in communion with the rest of the body of Christ and share insight and wisdom as a community rather than try to go it alone. Thirdly Christians are called to union in Christ and that can't be done if each and every individual wants their own opinion and theirs alone to prevail - every person in the body of Christ is to work for the edification of the body and the growth in grace of the body that is why Christians are a church rather than a loose confederation of independent individuals who do as they please.

 

[Imalive]

It's a double baptism. After they came out of the water they laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit.

Matt. 28:19–20—Go and “make disciples” of all nations. The outward act that
indicates submission to discipleship is water baptism (compare Mark 16:15–16).
I. Four Main Requirements For Baptism
A. Acts 2:38—You must repent, i.e., turn from your own way and submit to God.
B. Mark 16:16—You must believe the gospel
C. Matt. 28:19–20—You must be taught, i.e., commit yourself to discipleship.
D. 1 Pet. 3:21—You must be able to answer God with a good conscience. Peter
compares baptism to Noah and his family entering the ark. In the ark (= Christ)
you pass through the waters (= baptism) into a new world.
II. Examples From The Book Of Acts
A. Acts 2:41—If we “gladly receive” God’s Word, we will be baptized.
B. Acts 8:36—Philip preached “Jesus” to the eunuch. As a result, he knew
immediately that he needed to be baptized.
C. Acts 9:18—Paul was baptized immediately after he was converted (compare Acts
22:16).
D. Acts 10:47–48—Peter “commanded” the Gentiles to be baptized. This was the
outward sign that the Jewish Christians accepted these Gentiles as fellow
believers.
E. Acts 16:33—Paul told the jailer that he could be saved through faith in Christ.
Immediately after being saved, he and his household were baptized.
F. Acts 19:5—When these disciples of John the Baptist heard the message of Christ
preached by Paul, they were immediately baptized.
III. Spiritual Significance Of Water Baptism
A. Rom. 6:3–11—Identification with Christ in death, burial and resurrection.
B. 1 Cor. 15:2–6—The gospel consists of three simple facts. All three are contained
in baptism (compare Col. 2:12; 3:1–4).
IV. Old Testament Patterns
A. 1 Pet. 3:20–21; 1 Cor. 10:1–2, 6,11
1. Entering into the ark (= Christ) we pass through the water (= baptism)
2. Every Israelite delivered out of Egypt passed through a double baptism:
a. “In the cloud” = in the Holy Spirit
b. “In the sea” = in water
B. These are patterns for us. Final separation from Egypt was accomplished through the water.

Derek Prince

 

[MoreCoffee]

The posting of Ephesians 4:1-16 would not be to try to prove out 2 or 3 or more baptisms, but rather to put verse 5 in it's proper context. ...

Ephesians 4:5 still says "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" doesn't it? Context doesn't make it say "one Lord, one faith, two baptisms". There is one baptism and it is in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit and it unites the Christian to Christ in his death and resurrection washing away sins and bringing regeneration by water and the Spirit.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's a double baptism.

It's baptism. It isn't double or triple even if some dip three times it is still baptism. One baptism. The only kind of baptism that the holy scriptures know and teach.

After they came out of the water they laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit.

Matt. 28:19–20—Go and “make disciples” of all nations. The outward act that
indicates submission to discipleship is water baptism (compare Mark 16:15–16).
I. Four Main Requirements For Baptism
A. Acts 2:38—You must repent, i.e., turn from your own way and submit to God.
B. Mark 16:16—You must believe the gospel
C. Matt. 28:19–20—You must be taught, i.e., commit yourself to discipleship.
D. 1 Pet. 3:21—You must be able to answer God with a good conscience. Peter
compares baptism to Noah and his family entering the ark. In the ark (= Christ)
you pass through the waters (= baptism) into a new world.
II. Examples From The Book Of Acts
A. Acts 2:41—If we “gladly receive” God’s Word, we will be baptized.
B. Acts 8:36—Philip preached “Jesus” to the eunuch. As a result, he knew
immediately that he needed to be baptized.
C. Acts 9:18—Paul was baptized immediately after he was converted (compare Acts
22:16).
D. Acts 10:47–48—Peter “commanded” the Gentiles to be baptized. This was the
outward sign that the Jewish Christians accepted these Gentiles as fellow
believers.
E. Acts 16:33—Paul told the jailer that he could be saved through faith in Christ.
Immediately after being saved, he and his household were baptized.
F. Acts 19:5—When these disciples of John the Baptist heard the message of Christ
preached by Paul, they were immediately baptized.
III. Spiritual Significance Of Water Baptism
A. Rom. 6:3–11—Identification with Christ in death, burial and resurrection.
B. 1 Cor. 15:2–6—The gospel consists of three simple facts. All three are contained
in baptism (compare Col. 2:12; 3:1–4).
IV. Old Testament Patterns
A. 1 Pet. 3:20–21; 1 Cor. 10:1–2, 6,11
1. Entering into the ark (= Christ) we pass through the water (= baptism)
2. Every Israelite delivered out of Egypt passed through a double baptism:
a. “In the cloud” = in the Holy Spirit
b. “In the sea” = in water
B. These are patterns for us. Final separation from Egypt was accomplished through the water.

Derek Prince

 

[Imalive]

It's baptism. It isn't double or triple even if some dip three times it is still baptism. One baptism. The only kind of baptism that the holy scriptures know and teach.

So they pray to receive the Holy Spirit after one comes out of the water?
Is water baptism the baptism w the Holy Ghost and w fire in which Jesus would baptise us?
Maybe evangelical baptisms are very unbiblical, I think so. When I got baptised they didn't lay hands on me to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit. So that was done later in another church. Torben Sondergaard does it immediately. Ppl get saved, immediately baptised and immediately set free from demons and baptized in the Holy Spirit.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So they pray to receive the Holy Spirit after one comes out of the water?
Is water baptism the baptism w the Holy Ghost and w fire in which Jesus would baptise us?
Maybe evangelical baptisms are very unbiblical, I think so. When I got baptised they didn't lay hands on me to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit. So that was done later in another church. Torben Sondergaard does it immediately. Ppl get saved, immediately baptised and immediately set free from demons and baptized in the Holy Spirit.

In Catholic baptisms the Holy Spirit is invoked and hands are laid on [the head] of the one baptised. Jesus taught that one must be born of water and Spirit to enter the kingdom of God so the Spirit is always present in baptism.

Paul in First Corinthians writes - And indeed, in one Spirit, we were all baptised into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether servant or free. Paul also wrote - through baptism we have been buried with him into death, so that, in the manner that Christ rose from the dead, by the glory of the Father, so may we also walk in the newness of life. There's one baptism that both unites the faithful to Christ and places them in the body of Christ. The one baptism is with water and Spirit. It is the baptism that First Corinthians mentions in chapter twelve.

 

[user1234]

A person doesnt become a member of the body of Christ, i.e. saved, thru religious works (good or otherwise), church attendance or denominational membership, 'receiving your 1st holy communion' or water-baptism, etc.

A person is saved and becomes a member of the body of Christ by grace thru faith in Jesus.
THEN, the growth can take place, the gifts can be used to edify the body, and as we're called to in Hebrews13:1 and elsewhere, Let brotherly love continue.

 

[MennoSota]

There have been too many pages for me to find the post but MennoSota accused me of not having read the bible. I can assure him I've read it from cover to cover multiple times. Now, should I return the accusation on you because you don't agree with my beliefs? That's not a proper way to discuss a topic.

What specific verses show us that baptismal regeneration happens with infants?
I know that there is no scripture, but instead there is much twisting of verses out of context to create a prooftext. That is terrible hermaneutics (bible interpretation) which leads to false teaching. It is the use of prooftext out of context that has lead to groups like the Jehovah's Witness, Church of God, Hebrew Roots, Roman Church, etc.
Many atheists are better read than most Christians so merely reading the Bible is only part of the issue. The other issue is courageously observing and questioning the text and the commentators who spoke before.
Merely believing because "my leadership told me" is just being a puppet of a denomination. What the Bible says should lead to our own 95 thesis to discuss with our church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

A person doesnt become a member of the body of Christ, i.e. saved, thru religious works (good or otherwise), church attendance or denominational membership, 'receiving your 1st holy communion' or water-baptism, etc.

A person is saved and becomes a member of the body of Christ by grace thru faith in Jesus.
THEN, the growth can take place, the gifts can be used to edify the body, and as we're called to in Hebrews13:1 and elsewhere, Let brotherly love continue.

good works, Church membership, first communion, baptism, and faith are all graces given by God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What specific verses show us that baptismal regeneration happens with infants?
...

For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by men and hating one another; but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
[Titus 3:3-7]

 

[MennoSota]

I agree. God inspired those who wrote the holy scriptures so that we (the Christian community) might read what God said through the prophets and apostles. Nobody really reads the bible on their own. Firstly because the very concept of "the bible" is a community produced concept and a community effort in publishing. Secondly nobody is a Christian by themselves as if no one before ever was, and no one now is, and every Christians ought to be in communion with the rest of the body of Christ and share insight and wisdom as a community rather than try to go it alone. Thirdly Christians are called to union in Christ and that can't be done if each and every individual wants their own opinion and theirs alone to prevail - every person in the body of Christ is to work for the edification of the body and the growth in grace of the body that is why Christians are a church rather than a loose confederation of independent individuals who do as they please.

You are forcing community when it is not applicable. It's your means of escaping your own personal responsibility to "study to show yourself approved" unto God...not to your denomination.
The saints of old are our faith chapter (Hebrews 11), showing us how the gift of faith is displayed. Our salvation is individually decided and chosen by God, not by denominational communities. We know God through scripture, not through church created dogmas that have no biblical connection of which infant baptism is an example.

 

[MennoSota]

Ephesians 4:5 still says "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" doesn't it? Context doesn't make it say "one Lord, one faith, two baptisms". There is one baptism and it is in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit and it unites the Christian to Christ in his death and resurrection washing away sins and bringing regeneration by water and the Spirit.

Correct, the one baptism, in the context of the passage is iur immersion by the Holy Spirit into Christ. That is the one and only baptism unto salvation. No water baptism is ever needed for salvation.
Any water baptism is merely a ceremony depicting the authentic baptism done by God and God alone at the moment that God chose to adopt a human as his child.

 

[MennoSota]

good works, Church membership, first communion, baptism, and faith are all graces given by God.

You have no concept of saving grace if you add even a speck of your effort to the process. Instead you make God a liar.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You are forcing community when it is not applicable. ...

The whole of holy scripture puts emphasis on the community of the faithful - the body of Christ.

 

[MennoSota]

For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by men and hating one another; but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
[Titus 3:3-7]

This passage proves my point. The baptism of the Spirit is the only baptism and it happens when God chooses to adopt us.
Water baptism does nothing to save anyone.
Thanks for sharing, MC.