Mark 16:16 NASB He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
1. Good to remember that the Greek word "kai" (and) is just a connector. It does not remotely indicate or imply order, ALL it does is join things. "I took a shower and ate breakfast" is a factual statement, I just didn't do them in that order.
2. Of course, no one teaches that Baptism is ESSENTIAL to salvation, as if God is forbidden to give faith and justify any who has not been baptized. The Thief on the Cross and John the Baptist in the womb of Elizabeth are the usual examples.
3. The lack of faith indicates that one is not heaven bound, not the lack of baptism. Nonetheless, God does call on us to go.... baptize.... teach meaning these are not optional.
Act 8:12 NASB But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.
Yes.... today also, the baptism rite tends to stress the need for education....
Remember: Scripture is normative in it's TEACHING. We should not ignore what is taught in favor of a tiny, tiny percentage of practices that happen to be recorded is the Bible. Here is is likely adults were baptized.... probably already believers (although that can't be proven) but that is not remotely indicative of some mandate that only adults or believers are permitted to be baptized, it simply does not state that.
Act 8:13 NASB Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
Act 18:8 NASB Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.
1. Again, "kai" by no means indicates or remotely implies order
2. Again, we have a certain situation here.... but that doesn't mandate we can only do what was done here.
3. "With all his household" does not inform us of the age, race, color, nationality or religious beliefs of ANY in that group. Those who base their apologetic on "ALL the baptisms in the Bible were to those over the age of X who had FIRST documented and proved their born again, regenerated status and their Christian faith" find their whole argument destroyed. This is one of the places where we simply cannot know that any of that was the case. MAY have been..... may NOT have been..... Scripture doesn't say.
Show me where an 'Altar Call' or a 'dedication ceremony' directly contradicts what the Apostles wrote in Scripture and the comparison becomes "apples" to "apples". Until then, you offer me nothing but a straw man.
I don't beleive these practices "contradict" Scripture. Scripture nowhere mentions them but again the example see (or don't see) in the NT are not normative - what the Bible TEACHES is normative.
I do wonder about "Baby Dedication" IN LIEU OF Baptism...... I do wonder about "Altar Calls" as a good work performed by the unregenerate, dead, atheist that God rewards with salvation.... but the practices PER SE are okay in my opinion, not PER SE unbiblical (abiblical, however - which is okay)
Now where in Scripture are people Baptized first and then Believe at some later date?
We cannot know because we are simply not told that in all cases of baptisms....
With all due respect, it's irrelevant. IF you hold that we are to ignore what Scripture teaches and instead of that, in lieu of that, copy the tiny, tiny percentage of examples of practices that happen to be recorded in the Bible, then you'd be arguing that Gentiles cannot baptize (we only have examples of Hebrews doing that), they can only be done in the Holy Lands and modern-day Turkey and Greece (no examples elsewhere in the Bible) and you'd be against any Asians or Hispanics or Native Americans or Australians and probably Blacks from being taught and baptized since there are no examples of such anywhere in the Bible. You'd also be protesting posting on the internet, using electricity, churches having youth and women's groups, youth pastors, VBS, passing around Communion with little cut up pieces of leavened white bread and little plastic cups of Welche's Grape Juice and probably 99% of the things Christian Churches do today.
Thank you.
- Josiah
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