Sunday is God's day of Worship

[visionary]

Overgeneralizations stated is not proof, nor is it biblical back up. A member has every right to demand that OPINIONS in these theological forums be backed up by scripture and not just how they feel or think.

Not arguing the point of backing up a position. But to demand "authority rights" is another thing.

 

[Lamb]

Not arguing the point of backing up a position. But to demand "authority rights" is another thing.

I searched this thread for the word Authority and no one demanded authority rights so could you let me know which post you're directing this toward? I can't find it.

 

[Alithis]

Where are you learning how to be a disciple if not from God's Word from the bible?

i did not say they did not teach the content of the bible .im sure they recite it a whole lot .

i said they( and used the word most ) do not teach nor disciple people to become like the lord Jesus and do the things he did as he commanded us to do , they teach about that he said to do it , but they dont teach any one how .

example- how many years have you attended your congregation and -what date were you or any of those who sit beside you in pews for years , first trained (discipled ) in how to cast out a demon or heal a sick person ?

 

[Lamb]

i did not say they did not teach the content of the bible .im sure they recite it a whole lot .

i said they( and used the word most ) do not teach nor disciple people to become like the lord Jesus and do the things he did as he commanded us to do , they teach about that he said to do it , but they dont teach any one how .

example- how many years have you attended your congregation and -what date were you or any of those who sit beside you in pews for years , first trained (discipled ) in how to cast out a demon or heal a sick person ?

Am I correct in understanding that because you were taught that churches HAD to teach specific things and if they did not then they were worthless? Those specific things include (from your example above) casting out demons and healing the sick?

And even though those churches taught God's Word, which does not return to Him empty (Isaiah 55:11) you still find them to be worthless? Is that correct?

 

[Alithis]

Overgeneralizations stated is not proof, nor is it biblical back up. A member has every right to demand that OPINIONS in these theological forums be backed up by scripture and not just how they feel or think.

if your going to demand conversation be like that,then in future apply this standard on topics like water baptism where you could show nothing in scripture to back up either infant baptism or sprinkling ..
where you can show noting in scripture to say mary is divine , sinless , the queen of heaven or mother of god etc ... because as YOU claim , over generalizations stated is not proof, not backed up by scripture, they are just how you feel or think .

whats good for the goose ..

what does the word of God say .

 

[Lamb]

if your going to demand conversation be like that,then in future apply this standard on topics like water baptism where you could show nothing in scripture to back up either infant baptism or sprinkling ..
where you can show noting in scripture to say mat is divine , sinless , the queen of heaven or mother of god etc ... because as YOU claim , over generalizations stated is not proof, not backed up by scripture, they are just how you feel or think .

whats good for the goose ..

what does the word of God say .

What in the world is "mat is divine"?

 

[Alithis]

Am I correct in understanding that because you were taught that churches HAD to teach specific things and if they did not then they were worthless? Those specific things include (from your example above) casting out demons and healing the sick?

And even though those churches taught God's Word, which does not return to Him empty (Isaiah 55:11) you still find them to be worthless? Is that correct?

i did not say they did not teach the content of the bible .im sure they recite it a whole lot .

i said they( and used the word most ) do not teach nor disciple people to become like the lord Jesus and do the things he did as he commanded us to do , they teach about that he said to do it , but they dont teach any one how .

example- how many years have you attended your congregation and -what date were you or any of those who sit beside you in pews for years , first trained (discipled ) in how to cast out a demon or heal a sick person ?

and i said they were worthless, in respect, to the ABSENCE of teaching what Jesus told the disciples to do .

 

[Alithis]

Am I correct in understanding that because you were taught that churches HAD to teach specific things and if they did not then they were worthless? Those specific things include (from your example above) casting out demons and healing the sick?

And even though those churches taught God's Word, which does not return to Him empty (Isaiah 55:11) you still find them to be worthless? Is that correct?

i ALSO did not say they did not teach gods word .. but gods word tells us what we are to do and they do not teach you how to do itr and they teach the content of the bible .im sure they recite it a whole lot .

i said they( and used the word most ) do not teach nor disciple people to become like the lord Jesus and do the things he did as he commanded us to do , they teach about that he said to do it , but they dont teach any one how .

so the question - how many years have you attended your congregation and -what date were you or any of those who sit beside you in pews for years , first trained (discipled ) in how to cast out a demon or heal a sick person ? your not answering because you have NEVER been taught these fundamental basics required to practice what Jesus has COMMANDED us tio do . so yes .. if your not being trained in how to do what we are commanded to do .. then the organisation teaching you is worthless . its like an army that teaches it soldiers all the theory from a manule about war .. and never teaches them how to handle a weapon.. .. -worthless theory . leaving the body of chrsit utterly unequipped for the service of the lord which we are all commanded to do .

i see your not going to answer the question so i will take that as your answer

.. you don't have a date .you have never been trained in all your years in your man made institution- HOW, to do any of the things the lord commanded us to both do and teach others to do . youve been told ABOUT THEM but never been trained in how to do them .

and for the most part that is the case across most man made organisations people call churches ...so its not such a loose statement and not such an assumption .. it is evidently supported ,

 

[Lamb]

What is mat divine?

God's Word is being taught in churches on Sunday.

 

[Alithis]

a lot of the time this is the deep set source of disillusionment in the organisations that people suffer from. all this information and never taught , never dicipled i HOW to go and do what the lord's asking the to go and do . well you can be trained in those things and amazingly quickly .. but you may find you need to get out of those disbelieving organizations to be so trained . staying in them is like doing the same things and expecting a different result .. wont happen

 

[Lamb]

a lot of the time this is the deep set source of disillusionment in the organisations that people suffer from. all this information and never taught , never dicipled i HOW to go and do what the lord's asking the to go and do . well you can be trained in those things and amazingly quickly .. but you may find you need to get out of those disbelieving organizations to be so trained . staying in the is like doing the same things and expecting a different result .. wont happen

God's Word is taught in Sundays in liturgical churches. It is not only recitation as has been claimed here by some. Readings from scripture are done, psalms are chanted, hymns that contain scripture are sung. The Savior and forgiveness of sins is preached, congregants are fed on His Word.

Is God's Word lacking then if it is taught on Sundays in churches?

 

[tango]

What would make a unqualified comment? attacking the poster rather than the post shouldn't be allowed.

I'm not attacking anybody. Had I made a comment along the lines of "(user) is a fool" or similar you'd be entirely right to call me out on it, but I didn't say anything of the sort.

If Alithis were making comments along the lines of "most churches I've been to are like this" then there wouldn't be an issue because he is clearly qualified to discuss the churches he has attended. Had he posted along those lines my response would have been more to suggest that maybe he has been unlucky, or perhaps to consider that most churches in his area have issues. But when he talks of "most churches" without any qualifications to region, denomination etc he is making sweeping statements about vast numbers of churches across the planet. I'm merely curious to know whether he has any factual basis, or any experience, or any qualification, to make such far reaching comment or if he's just taking a few limited examples and assuming that every church is like the ones he's visited, or maybe seen a few churches advertising bingo drives and picnics and assumed they don't bother preaching the gospel.

There's no personal attack at all, merely a request for clarification.

 

[tango]

i did not say they did not teach the content of the bible .im sure they recite it a whole lot .

i said they( and used the word most ) do not teach nor disciple people to become like the lord Jesus and do the things he did as he commanded us to do , they teach about that he said to do it , but they dont teach any one how .

example- how many years have you attended your congregation and -what date were you or any of those who sit beside you in pews for years , first trained (dicipled ) in how to cast out a demon or heal a sick person ?

What sort of training would you expect to receive in how to cast out a demon? What training would you expect to receive regarding how to heal someone?

Training in this sort of thing, in my experience (which I accept isn't universal), tends to lean towards the kind of weird and dangerous theologies of the likes of Brent Engelman who provides all sorts of nice-sounding words about listening to God and then slips in a few things that teach the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches, then provides a few soothing words suggesting "God won't let you be deceived" and encourages people to act on their impressions trusting they are from God.

Casting out a demon is only possible if you encounter someone who actually has a demon. I realise there are some who blame a specific demon for just about everything that befalls us but that approach seems extreme. If an illness responds to medical treatment the chances are it was earthly in nature rather than demonic.

Teaching someone how to heal has comparable potential for danger. If the person in question doesn't have the gift of healing (and Paul made it reasonably clear in 1Co 12 that not all have that gift) then what is there to teach? And if someone does have the gift it need be nothing more than praying for a sick person. Does God require a specific form of words be used, like some kind of ritual incantation, in order to heal someone? Likewise the idea of teaching people how to hear God - God is quite capable of making himself heard and if God isn't speaking to someone the insistence that they can learn to hear God anyway does little other than encourage them to listen for something that might not be there, running after all sorts of fanciful ideas in the same sort of manner that false teachers like Brent Engelman might encourage.

We need to be careful not to quench the Spirit, at the same time we need to be careful that our desire to operate in the spiritual gifts doesn't lead us to stray into forms of sorcery where we're effectively trying to impose our own will upon reality.

 

[Alithis]

What sort of training would you expect to receive in how to cast out a demon? What training would you expect to receive regarding how to heal someone?

Training in this sort of thing, in my experience (which I accept isn't universal), tends to lean towards the kind of weird and dangerous theologies of the likes of Brent Engelman who provides all sorts of nice-sounding words about listening to God and then slips in a few things that teach the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches, then provides a few soothing words suggesting "God won't let you be deceived" and encourages people to act on their impressions trusting they are from God.

Casting out a demon is only possible if you encounter someone who actually has a demon. I realise there are some who blame a specific demon for just about everything that befalls us but that approach seems extreme. If an illness responds to medical treatment the chances are it was earthly in nature rather than demonic.

Teaching someone how to heal has comparable potential for danger. If the person in question doesn't have the gift of healing (and Paul made it reasonably clear in 1Co 12 that not all have that gift) then what is there to teach? And if someone does have the gift it need be nothing more than praying for a sick person. Does God require a specific form of words be used, like some kind of ritual incantation, in order to heal someone? Likewise the idea of teaching people how to hear God - God is quite capable of making himself heard and if God isn't speaking to someone the insistence that they can learn to hear God anyway does little other than encourage them to listen for something that might not be there, running after all sorts of fanciful ideas in the same sort of manner that false teachers like Brent Engelman might encourage.

We need to be careful not to quench the Spirit, at the same time we need to be careful that our desire to operate in the spiritual gifts doesn't lead us to stray into forms of sorcery where we're effectively trying to impose our own will upon reality.

what is this waffle about sorcery lol

Go back to the scriptures and observe the lord Jesus .. he took 12 men and trained them ..
go back to the basics of the scriptures ..
wrong -=Jesus took 12 men and he made them sit in a meeting for 2 hours a week sing some songs pay some money and have tea and cookies .??

right - Jesus took 12 men and said come with me and i will make you fishers of men , then he took-them with him and went out healing the sick driving out demons preaching the gospel.. he showed them HOW to do it dicipling them how .then he sent them out to practice doing the same and sometimes they got it wrong and sometimes they got it right .. then he empowered them with his holy Spirt and told them go and do like wise .. to all nations ..
now NO ONE here has been able to tell me with God as witness that ANY church organisation your attend weekly has EVER taken you out of the building ,like Jesus did the disciples , and shown taught and discipled you how to do the things Jesus did .. NONE of you from ANY denomination .
so when i say the organisations some here call"church' are worthless in respect of what it is they teach .. it is a generalization that is evidenced by the fact NO ONE can speak of their established denomination teaching them any of these things or showing them how to do it
they teach them ABOUT those those things
they teach them what the Bible says, 'they recite the bible in vain repetition ,
they teach you to be hearers of the word by not DOERS . because you cannot teach a person something you are not doing yourself .

 

[Alithis]

Evidence in the corruption of clergy is an indication. Corruption within the congregations is an indication. If the training was effective it would have effected both clergy and congregations. If the first was to lead them to Yeshua, then why do most have no experience with Him? Why is the belief system a theology?

because becoming proficient at a theology does nt ask anything of you . it does not require an action of obedience. it is looking into the mirror of the word and then going away and forgetting what manner of man you are . it is hearing the word ,studying the word reciting the word learning the word but not DOING the word .. and such the lord say .. deceive themselves .

 

[tango]

what is this waffle about sorcery lol

Waffle about sorcery? Some churches I've seen do stuff that looks more like my time in the occult than anything I can associate with the teachings of Jesus.

Go back to the scriptures and observe the lord Jesus .. he took 12 men and trained them ..
go back to the basics of the scriptures ..
wrong -=Jesus took 12 men and he made them sit in a meeting for 2 hours a week sing some songs pay some money and have tea and cookies .??

right - Jesus took 12 men and said come with me and i will make you fishers of men , then he took-them with him and went out healing the sick driving out demons preaching the gospel.. he showed them HOW to do it dicipling them how .then he sent them out to practice doing the same and sometimes they got it wrong and sometimes they got it right .. then he empowered them with his holy Spirt and told them go and do like wise .. to all nations ..
now NO ONE here has been able to tell me with God as witness that ANY church organisation your attend weekly has EVER taken you out of the building ,like Jesus did the disciples , and shown taught and discipled you how to do the things Jesus did .. NONE of you from ANY denomination .
so when i say the organisations some here call"church' are worthless in respect of what it is they teach .. it is a generalization that is evidenced by the fact NO ONE can speak of their established denomination teaching them any of these things or showing them how to do it
they teach them ABOUT those those things
they teach them what the Bible says, 'they recite the bible in vain repetition ,
they teach you to be hearers of the word by not DOERS . because you cannot teach a person something you are not doing yourself .

... and this is all well and good but in the days Jesus walked this earth people didn't have the Bible to read. I'd have thought you'd be more interested in reading the Bible to see what Jesus did than in watching a man who is hopefully reading to see what Jesus did.

When Peter and John approached the lame man at the Beautiful Gate what they did doesn't exactly require a three year degree course to comprehend. A simple instruction and the man was healed. The fact remains that unless a prayer for healing requires a specific incantation I don't need to be taught to do it, I can pray for anyone to be healed and then it's a matter of whether or not God chooses to heal them. Unless you want to go for the weird kind of "treasure hunting" associated with churches like Bethel I'm not sure exactly what you would expect "the church" to do regarding taking people out of the building.

Perhaps instead of relentlessly saying what you don't think the church is doing, you could give some specifics on what you think it should be doing. If you think it should be teaching people, what exactly should it be teaching and how?

For the record most churches I've attended have encouraged people to identify and develop their spiritual gifts, both within the church and without. Sometimes a prophetic word or a prayer for healing might be intended for someone else who has gathered in the place you don't like to call church, sometimes it might be for someone outside. But even if the church has a perfectly organised timetable of just when it is going to take people out and where, the individual still has to take the step of faith for themselves to actually pray for someone for the first time. In that regard the best the church can do is teach people what Christ taught and encourage. Nobody can teach another how to take a step of faith.

 

[Alithis]

Waffle about sorcery? Some churches I've seen do stuff that looks more like my time in the occult than anything I can associate with the teachings of Jesus.



... and this is all well and good but in the days Jesus walked this earth people didn't have the Bible to read. I'd have thought you'd be more interested in reading the Bible to see what Jesus did than in watching a man who is hopefully reading to see what Jesus did.

When Peter and John approached the lame man at the Beautiful Gate what they did doesn't exactly require a three year degree course to comprehend. A simple instruction and the man was healed. The fact remains that unless a prayer for healing requires a specific incantation I don't need to be taught to do it, I can pray for anyone to be healed and then it's a matter of whether or not God chooses to heal them. Unless you want to go for the weird kind of "treasure hunting" associated with churches like Bethel I'm not sure exactly what you would expect "the church" to do regarding taking people out of the building.

Perhaps instead of relentlessly saying what you don't think the church is doing, you could give some specifics on what you think it should be doing. If you think it should be teaching people, what exactly should it be teaching and how?

For the record most churches I've attended have encouraged people to identify and develop their spiritual gifts, both within the church and without. Sometimes a prophetic word or a prayer for healing might be intended for someone else who has gathered in the place you don't like to call church, sometimes it might be for someone outside. But even if the church has a perfectly organised timetable of just when it is going to take people out and where, the individual still has to take the step of faith for themselves to actually pray for someone for the first time. In that regard the best the church can do is teach people what Christ taught and encourage. Nobody can teach another how to take a step of faith.

whats it got to do with the general worthlessness of what denominational establishments teach their pew warmers .. if their pew warmers are still warming pews ,whether in that congregation or another, 20 years later and are not going and doing what the lord Jesus commanded us to go and do ,mostly because they either don't want to or they have not been taught how to- then what they are being taught is generally worthless .obedience is not a theory . and the gifts you speak of are for what purpose / to equip that body to the service . not to just do over and over inside a meeting . the service of the work of the gospel in every aspect .

 

[Alithis]

Waffle about sorcery? Some churches I've seen do stuff that looks more like my time in the occult than anything I can associate with the teachings of Jesus.



... and this is all well and good but in the days Jesus walked this earth people didn't have the Bible to read. I'd have thought you'd be more interested in reading the Bible to see what Jesus did than in watching a man who is hopefully reading to see what Jesus did.

When Peter and John approached the lame man at the Beautiful Gate what they did doesn't exactly require a three year degree course to comprehend. A simple instruction and the man was healed. The fact remains that unless a prayer for healing requires a specific incantation I don't need to be taught to do it, I can pray for anyone to be healed and then it's a matter of whether or not God chooses to heal them. Unless you want to go for the weird kind of "treasure hunting" associated with churches like Bethel I'm not sure exactly what you would expect "the church" to do regarding taking people out of the building.

Perhaps instead of relentlessly saying what you don't think the church is doing, you could give some specifics on what you think it should be doing. If you think it should be teaching people, what exactly should it be teaching and how?

For the record most churches I've attended have encouraged people to identify and develop their spiritual gifts, both within the church and without. Sometimes a prophetic word or a prayer for healing might be intended for someone else who has gathered in the place you don't like to call church, sometimes it might be for someone outside. But even if the church has a perfectly organised timetable of just when it is going to take people out and where, the individual still has to take the step of faith for themselves to actually pray for someone for the first time. In that regard the best the church can do is teach people what Christ taught and encourage. Nobody can teach another how to take a step of faith.

you can read the bible until your blue in the face but if you dont DO it ..that too is worthless and it is difficult for people to learn hos to do it when huge chunks of the denominations are teaching unbelief .. god cant save from sin , cant set free, wont keep his covenant and heal etc ,,, filled with cold waxen hearts of unbelief teaching tradition in place of gods word ,gathering unto themsleves teachers who wil tickle their ears and not speak sound doctrines

 

[Alithis]

God's Word is taught in Sundays in liturgical churches. It is not only recitation as has been claimed here by some. Readings from scripture are done, psalms are chanted, hymns that contain scripture are sung. The Savior and forgiveness of sins is preached, congregants are fed on His Word.

Is God's Word lacking then if it is taught on Sundays in churches?

do you go and do it ?
are you taught to go and do it ?
are you trained to go and do it ..?
not by the organisations you refer to as "church" ..

so what they are teaching you is how to know a book .. not how to do what the book instructs

as i said before it is like teaching an army the theory of warfare and never teaching them how to handle or use a weapon .worthless when war comes .

i have asked you very precisely to state when you or any one else in ANY congregation has been taught instructed and disciples in the basics of the things the lord Jesus has commanded us to do .. and the answer has been a resounding silence .
it says it all .

the organisations you call "church" are not what they claim to be . and we are not called upon to worship on any particular day but to worship as a life of obedience every single day -our lives to be a "living sacrifice " not a singular sacrifice but a living one .. ongoing . just as repentance is a state of life not a one off event (we are to be consistently renewing the mind .. not only 2 hours on one day )

folks here can argue sat or sunday pointlessly . its a life not a day

 

[MoreCoffee]

Saturday sabbath advocates are unlikely to accept Sunday as the Lord's day regardless of what line of evidence is presented in favour of it. It comes down to being able to say "we observe all ten of the commandments while you [Sunday keepers] only observe nine of them, why?" - statements such as that are hard to give away when one perceives one's self to be in a battle for purity of faith & practise against others who have [allegedly] compromised with worldly powers. This thread like all the other sabbath as the seventh day (Saturday) threads can go on indefinitely without resolution.