Sinless Mary

[Lamb]

The bible does not declare Mary to be sinless...so what are the earliest church fathers who believed it and wrote about it?

 

[Josiah]

The bible does not declare Mary to be sinless...so what are the earliest church fathers who believed it and wrote about it?

Scripture (and early Tradition) say no such thing.....


Now, I agree, the many verses that say "for ALL have sinned" may not PROVE that Mary did, because we know there is at least one exception (Jesus) but then that singular exception is not ONLY man so the typical Catholic rebuttal may not apply.



In my Catholic days, we were taught two things that prove Mary was without sin:

1. Jesus was sinless (Bible specifically states that), and thus could not have inherited sin from His parents.... obviously the Father has no sin but this means that equally, Mary must not have had sin (No one ever got an answer to then why could Mary's parents have been sinful and yet gave birth to a sinless child? And never got an answer to why then aren't ALL people sinless as Jesus since Mary's ancestors all way back to Adam and Eve had to be sinless and we're ALL desendents of such. Catholic boys and girls see the flaw and ask their teachers but ... well .... docilic submission is what makes a Catholic a Catholic).

2. Jesus was sinless and He "resided" in Mary's womb for 9 months, and ergo that womb (and the woman to whom it belonged) was made sinless. How this proves she was BORN sinless was never answered. And of course, Jesus also resided in the world for 33 years, so was the world made sinless? Catholic boys and girls see the flaw an ask the question but... well... docilic submission is what makes a Catholic Catholic.



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The bible does not declare Mary to be sinless...so what are the earliest church fathers who believed it and wrote about it?

St. Ambrose (430 A.D.) wrote, ". . . Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain."

Concerning Blessed Mary, St. Augustine wrote, "I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sin."

St. Ephraem, in a poem addressed to Christ, wrote "Thou and thy mother are alone in this—you are wholly beautiful in every respect. There is in thee, Lord, no stain, nor any spot in thy Mother."

In praise of Mary, he also wrote, "My Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate . . . spotless robe of Him who clothes himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate!"

 

[Lamb]

St. Ambrose (430 A.D.) wrote, ". . . Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain."

Concerning Blessed Mary, St. Augustine wrote, "I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sin."

St. Ephraem, in a poem addressed to Christ, wrote "Thou and thy mother are alone in this—you are wholly beautiful in every respect. There is in thee, Lord, no stain, nor any spot in thy Mother."

In praise of Mary, he also wrote, "My Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate . . . spotless robe of Him who clothes himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate!"

To me those quotes address the lack of stain of sex since Jesus was conceived without intercourse.

 

[MoreCoffee]

To me those quotes address the lack of stain of sex since Jesus was conceived without intercourse.

Except that they are all dealing with sin not bed-sheet stains.

 

[Lamb]

Except that they are all dealing with sin not bed-sheet stains.

I still don't see how those quotes are saying she had no sin at all. I see them being attributed toward not having the sin of sex since she was a virgin.

 

[Arsenios]

To me those quotes address the lack of stain of sex since Jesus was conceived without intercourse.

Ambrose wrote (as cited):
Mary, a Virgin
not only undefiled
but a virgin
whom grace has made inviolate,
free of every stain."

So that undefiled and virgin are two, not one and the same...

And this because: "The marriage bed is undefiled..."

And the stain of intercourse is but one stain...
Yet she is free of every stain...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Ambrose wrote (as cited):
Mary, a Virgin
not only undefiled
but a virgin
whom grace has made inviolate,
free of every stain."

So that undefiled and virgin are two, not one and the same...

The quote from Ambrose doesn't say anything about any " Immaculate Conception," though. You may be reading something into the wording.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I still don't see how those quotes are saying she had no sin at all. I see them being attributed toward not having the sin of sex since she was a virgin.

"My Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate . . . spotless robe of Him who clothes himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate!"

If you do not see any implication of sin-free life in these words then why object to the dogma of the immaculate conception of Blessed Mary? Have you read the dogma?

 

[Arsenios]

"My Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate . . . spotless robe of Him who clothes himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate!"

If you do not see any implication of sin-free life in these words then why object to the dogma of the immaculate conception of Blessed Mary? Have you read the dogma?

She was normally conceived...

The problem with the I/C is that so are we all normally conceived, as is all mankind except Christ...

Christ assumed in His Own Body ALL our fallen condition, except He did no sin...

What Christ assumed, He healed, in His Own Body...

IF Mary was given special Grace at Her conception,
THEN Christ only healed those who were also given special Grace at their conception...

At Christ's Conception, He Who IS Life inherited Death...
The very Death He received from the sinless Blessed Virgin...
And this Death He overcame in His Own Flesh...
And in Hades He overcame the very Realm of Death...

No small matter...


Arsenios

 

[psalms 91]

Mary was born and was not sinless, she was like any of us. To say she was sinless is to put her on the same level as Jesus and she would have had no need of a saviour. Totally false and wrong doctrine

 

[psalms 91]

"My Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate . . . spotless robe of Him who clothes himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate!"

If you do not see any implication of sin-free life in these words then why object to the dogma of the immaculate conception of Blessed Mary? Have you read the dogma?

No I read the bible and she was most definitely not sinless, by the way, I clicked like on this post by mistake since I consider it wrong

 

[Arsenios]

The quote from Ambrose doesn't say anything about any " Immaculate Conception," though. You may be reading something into the wording.

We renounce that false doctrine...

Re-read the post...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Mary was born and was not sinless, she was like any of us. To say she was sinless is to put her on the same level as Jesus and she would have had no need of a saviour. Totally false and wrong doctrine

She gave Christ Death, into which She was born...

She was not born into sin, but Death, for which cause all have sinned, as Paul writes...

Christ overcame Her death, which is our death, by His Death...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

No I read the bible and she was most definitely not sinless,

Where in the Bible does it say Mary sinned?


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

We renounce that false doctrine...

Re-read the post...


Arsenios

It's hard to tell when the post is some poetry followed by a "So there you go!," Arsenios.

 

[Arsenios]

It's hard to tell when the post is some poetry followed by a "So there you go!," Arsenios.

:who me:




A.

 

[psalms 91]

Where in the Bible does it say Mary sinned?


Arsenios

Where does it say she was sinless and on the same level as Jesus? It does say that because of Adam all have sinned and does it not say that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?

 

[MoreCoffee]

No I read the bible and she was most definitely not sinless,

Of which sins do you accuse Blessed Mary?

by the way, I clicked like on this post by mistake since I consider it wrong

I thought you liked it because it answered Lamm's request.

 

[Andrew]

Mary referred to Jesus as her Savior... Savior from what if not her her sins?