Sharing statements on Christian theology

[FredVB]

I want to share that though there are hidden things to be found out in the revelation from Yahweh, there are the basic essentials that all who become believers should know, that are shown in a straightforward way.

Free will in our choices is a reality. Over and over we are told in scripture that we are to choose, for something in godliness.

In the second epistle of Peter, it is said that God is not willing that any would perish but that all would come to repentance with which there is salvation, with Christ. Not all do, certainly, with being the case from free will. Coming to this is the narrow way, that is with coming to Christ, most choose in resisting that, even if with considering another way right, still.

So Christ did not limit what was paid for. As being infinite God with the value being paid, the eternity for the redeemed is dealt wirh. That is not limited. With what is truly infinite, there is always more available with it. There could be any number more included with the redeemed, if the chose for it with responding as they should to God's work of grace toward them.

The unlimitedness of God is unequaled, and there is no way those who stay in the godliness with Christ are going to be overcome from any power of Satan. There is nothing to fear of it with staying faithful to God and what is of God's will, in Christ, though there are times of adversity in life.

The original gospel is about this godliness. There must be repentance from all that was going contrary to God's will, and trusting Jesus as Christ, to follow him, knowing that with his resurrection, we are raised redeemed with him. We then don't do things knowingly apart from God's will for us, but would seek it out more, doing accordingly. Nothing of this will reason away anything God states. So in this original gospel, we don't look to traditions to override what we may see for what God's will is for us.

That in this year there are yet more people with the view that the earth is flat is unjustified from real basis, the Bible that some of those use to conclude that way does not give anything for that view conclusively. We can still say the sun sets, as an expression for that appearance, while still having the understanding that the earth rotates and where we are on it moves away from seeing the sun that where we are was facing. The circle of the earth is mentioned in the scriptures too. That the lunar eclipse shows the shadow of the earth, between it and the sun, always shows the curve of the earth, every time, from whichever direction it is seen, shows that the earth is curved all the way around. And friends online can be referred to for knowing the times where they are, showing the time zones correspond to the spherical earth.

Happy 2019. Let us go forward and not backward.

 

[TurtleHare]

Now I don't believe I agree with you at all about free will and man being able to choose holiness since man wants to be his own god like Adam and Eve and that reigns in us until we're given faith and then it's not a choosing but it's that we're already there with God. Ya know?

I do agree with you entirely that the earth is not a flat earth and that stuff is absolutely ridiculous when we have videos and photos proving otherwise so its a matter of suspicion overriding facts.

 

[Josiah]

Over and over we are told in scripture that we are to choose, for something in godliness.

Who is the "we?" What is the "choice?" IF you are talking about CHRISTIANS (those justified, that is, those with the divine gift of spiritual life - the Holy Spirit - faith in Christ as Savior).... "choosing" to live out the life they have, living according to the leading of the Spirit, then yup. IF you are talking about dead, atheistic, enemies of God "choosing" to give self life, then I disagree.

In the second epistle of Peter, it is said that God is not willing that any would perish but that all would come to repentance with which there is salvation, with Christ. Not all do, certainly, with being the case from free will.

There is no free will. The dead can't will anything. Life is the gift of God. Faith is the gift of God.

Just because God commands something doesnt necessarily mean that is something the precedes justification (life - faith - Holy Spirit) and something dead, atheistic enemies of God can (or will) do. There ain't much dead people can do.

The unlimitedness of God is unequaled, and there is no way those who stay in the godliness with Christ are going to be overcome from any power of Satan. There is nothing to fear of it with staying faithful to God and what is of God's will, in Christ, though there are times of adversity in life.

Yup.

The original gospel is about this godliness. There must be repentance from all that was going contrary to God's will, and trusting Jesus as Christ, to follow him, knowing that with his resurrection, we are raised redeemed with him. We then don't do things knowingly apart from God's will for us, but would seek it out more, doing accordingly. Nothing of this will reason away anything God states. So in this original gospel, we don't look to traditions to override what we may see for what God's will is for us.

Um..... depends if you are talking about justification or sanctification...

No, we are not justified by repenting (making Jesus irrelevent and self the savior of self by good works). Nope, Jesus is the Savior. His atonement is apprehended via the divine gift of faith. Jesus saves, not self. The Cross /Empty Tomb is the cause, not self jumping through some hoop.

That in this year there are yet more people with the view that the earth is flat is unjustified from real basis, the Bible that some of those use to conclude that way does not give anything for that view conclusively. We can still say the sun sets, as an expression for that appearance, while still having the understanding that the earth rotates and where we are on it moves away from seeing the sun that where we are was facing. The circle of the earth is mentioned in the scriptures too. That the lunar eclipse shows the shadow of the earth, between it and the sun, always shows the curve of the earth, every time, from whichever direction it is seen, shows that the earth is curved all the way around. And friends online can be referred to for knowing the times where they are, showing the time zones correspond to the spherical earth.

I don't hold to a small, flat, square Earth.

But I do realize a LOT of crazy ideas are out there, all by some individual Christian with ENORMOUS egos believing they alone are smart, they alone know what God should have said in the Bible but didn't, they alone determine what God MEANT or SHOULD believe. Egoism and individualism are at HUGE levels today.... and the result is amazing (and dangerous). Luther said that humility is the foundation of all good theology but there's precious little of that in the modern world - including among Christians.

 

[psalms 91]

sigh, God allows us to choose either to accept Him or not very clear in scripture or else should we start ripping them out of the bible

 

[MennoSota]

sigh, God allows us to choose either to accept Him or not very clear in scripture or else should we start ripping them out of the bible

Read John 17 because God/Jesus disagrees with you. But...perhaps you are just ripping passages out of the Bible...

 

[psalms 91]

Read John 3:16 and so many other passages, by the way are you claiming that God plays favorites and not everyone has the opportunity for salvation? If so you are really going against scripture. Of course I know I wont change your mind and you definitely wont change mine since I know you are wrong and I doubt anyone elses so is this just for the sake of argument?

 

[MennoSota]

Read John 3:16 and so many other passages, by the way are you claiming that God plays favorites and not everyone has the opportunity for salvation? If so you are really going against scripture. Of course I know I wont change your mind and you definitely wont change mine since I know you are wrong and I doubt anyone elses so is this just for the sake of argument?

I have read the entire Bible. I don't find free-will taught anywhere.
God tells us that no one seeks God, not even one. Since no one can save themselves, God chooses whom He wills to save. Do you think God is evil for saving some and not all?
Do you wish that God had dropped the gift of salvation on a main Street and those smart enough or lucky enough to unwrap the gift would be saved while all who walked past just died?
When you give a gift, do you tell the person that it is for them or do you just leave it on the sidewalk and hope they find it? Are you an evil person because you give a gift to someone you have chosen rather than giving your entire country a gift they are required to run around and find? Don't you play favorites when you give a gift? Not everyone gets a gift from you...do they?
Of course I know I wont change your mind since I know you are wrong so is this just for the sake of argument?

 

[psalms 91]

I have read the entire Bible. I don't find free-will taught anywhere.
God tells us that no one seeks God, not even one. Since no one can save themselves, God chooses whom He wills to save. Do you think God is evil for saving some and not all?
Do you wish that God had dropped the gift of salvation on a main Street and those smart enough or lucky enough to unwrap the gift would be saved while all who walked past just died?
When you give a gift, do you tell the person that it is for them or do you just leave it on the sidewalk and hope they find it? Are you an evil person because you give a gift to someone you have chosen rather than giving your entire country a gift they are required to run around and find? Don't you play favorites when you give a gift? Not everyone gets a gift from you...do they?
Of course I know I wont change your mind since I know you are wrong so is this just for the sake of argument?

I will leaver you to it since this is pointless but one last thing. God has foreknowledge of the choices we will make so He isnt really choosing against our will but because of our will. We are predestined by His foreknowledge of what we will do and God uses that to shape His will in the world. Not hard at all and not rocket science

 

[MennoSota]

I will leaver you to it since this is pointless but one last thing.

God has foreknowledge of the choices we will make
so He isnt really choosing against our will but because of our will.

Well, you have no scripture for the second assertion. Moreso, can you not see that your statement places God's will as subservient to your will? Read what you just wrote because you have glorified yourself while taking glory away from God.

We are predestined by His foreknowledge of what we will do and God uses that to shape His will in the world.

Your statement is a convoluted pretzel with no biblical support. God is not held back from acting until we first choose. That places God as subservient to us.
It is also the philosophy of open theists and liberals who deny God's Sovereignty. Do you really want to go down the path of liberalism?

Not hard at all and not rocket science

Well, since your biblical support is empty, I would say that at least rocket science has empirical data to back itself up. What you have is just post-modern feelings where opinion is valued over facts.

 

[Josiah]

I will leaver you to it since this is pointless but one last thing. God has foreknowledge of the choices we will make so He isnt really choosing against our will but because of our will. We are predestined by His foreknowledge of what we will do and God uses that to shape His will in the world. Not hard at all and not rocket science

[MENTION=43]psalms 91[/MENTION]


The Bible does NOT say that God only FOREKNOWS. It says He also PREDESTINES or ELECTS. There is a difference.


To foreknow simply means to be aware of something before it happens. It has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with causing it or desiring it. Of course, for God (alone) such is perfect and for man, it's not. But yes, in a limited way, I FOREKNOW the sun will rise tomorrow (I can even look up and tell you EXACTLY when it will happen where I live). But I have NOTHING to do with it. It's not necessarily my will or the response to ANYTHING in me. Did God foreknow that the devil would rebell? Yes. Did God know that Eve would pick that walnut? Yup. What does this imply? Only one thing, He KNEW.

To predestine or elect means to cause. Lazarus was raised from the dead. Why? Because Jesus performed a miracle and it resulted in Lazarus coming to life. Did God FOREKNOW Lazarus would? Sure, but this foreknowledge had nothing to do with it actually happening. It was His election that brought about the miracle. Did God CAUSE the devil to rebel? No (although He did foreknow it). Did God CAUSE Eve to pic that orange? Nope (unless one is LDS), but He did foreknow it. Do I foreknow that my son will poop in his pants? Yup. Am I the cause of it? Nope. Thus, I can say I have foreknowledge on that, but NOT that I predestine it.


Thing is, Bill, the Bible does NOT say that God ONLY foreknows who will and will not save themselves by performing the good work of choosing Him. He DOES say he foreknows who will and won't have faith, but it doesn't ONLY say that. Far more often, the Bible says that God ELECTS or CHOOSES or PREDESTINES who will believe.... and the very word means He causes it, He brings it about. This "fits" perfectly with MANY Scriptures that indicate that faith is "the free gift of God" and "no one can even say 'Jesus is Lord' unless the Holy Spirit causes" and "you did not choose me but I choose you" and "salvation is the free gift of God and not by what you do, lest anyone have a reason to boast of themselves." Now, Bill, there IS mystery here (to use a favorite word in Lutheran theology).... and it seems very likely that part of God's miracle is changing our will (but God doing the CHANGING).... how God DOES this miracle of giving spiritual life, giving the Holy Spirit, giving faith in Christ ("the free gift of God") is largely unknown, largely mystery. But it is not simply "God knows who will perform the good work of choosing Jesus and THUS gives them faith." (See PS below)


There is a tendency among radical Calvinists and Arminianists to think that if "A" is wrong, thus the logical extreme opposite MUST be correct. It's a false approach - especially when it runs head on with an abundance of Scriptures that verbatim say the exact opposite. SOMETIMES, friend, we end up with a mystery... a reality we can't fully wrap our fallen, puny, human brains around. We are called to be "Stewards of the MYSTERIES of God" not to correct God. There IS foreknowledge... but there is also predestination of the believers.


I hope that helps....


A blessed Epiphany season to all!



- Josiah



PS I reject predestination of the damned (a position of only a very few HYPER-Calvinists). God FOREKNOWS who will not have faith but God doesn't CAUSE that. God desires all to be saved (as the Bible repeatedly says).... Christ died for all (as the Bible repeatedly says).... God causes some to believe..... Now, stop where God Himself does. The Bible ONLY says that God predestines some TO believe. And it says that ONLY as pure Gospel, to comfort and assure the saved. Don't twist that upside down and inside out, don't twist that into terrorizing Law as the HYPER, radical Calvinists do. Don't FORCE God to agree with the "logic" of self. Just accept what God says... and realize, God performs a MIRACLE here, the MIRACLE of life and faith, the MIRACLE of justification. And we don't know all the pieces of the puzzle, we don't know all the 'dots' so don't try to connect them. I accept positive predestination because the Bible says that, I reject the opposite because the Bible doesn't teach that (it teaches the exact opposite). Lutherans approach theology with HUMILITY. It does, at times, leave us with mystery.





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[FredVB]

Now I don't believe I agree with you at all about free will and man being able to choose holiness since man wants to be his own god like Adam and Eve and that reigns in us until we're given faith and then it's not a choosing but it's that we're already there with God. Ya know?

That man wants to be his own god and that reigns in us, even if it seems generally true, is not a passage in the Bible I am familiar with. We do have choices, in some things, if we had no choices, we could give up on what life means for us. We don't just choose holiness, of course, but there is responsiveness for us from what Yahweh does for us. We might choose rightly or wrongly for it, but Yahweh makes it available to us. That is why passages in the Bible say, in places, choose this.

Who is the "we?" What is the "choice?" IF you are talking about CHRISTIANS (those justified, that is, those with the divine gift of spiritual life - the Holy Spirit - faith in Christ as Savior).... "choosing" to live out the life they have, living according to the leading of the Spirit, then yup. IF you are talking about dead, atheistic, enemies of God "choosing" to give self life, then I disagree.

There is no free will. The dead can't will anything. Life is the gift of God. Faith is the gift of God.

Just because God commands something doesnt necessarily mean that is something the precedes justification (life - faith - Holy Spirit) and something dead, atheistic enemies of God can (or will) do. There ain't much dead people can do.

Um..... depends if you are talking about justification or sanctification...

No, we are not justified by repenting (making Jesus irrelevent and self the savior of self by good works). Nope, Jesus is the Savior. His atonement is apprehended via the divine gift of faith. Jesus saves, not self. The Cross /Empty Tomb is the cause, not self jumping through some hoop.

All people are provided choice, at some time, anyway. Yahweh provides for that, not wanting any to perish, but have all come to repentance in faith with which there is salvation. Yahweh is love, is not limited, and so is not callous to humanity's condition, providing this then for all. For those choosing yet rejection of the opportunity Yahweh really gives them, there is the uncompromised justice yet coming, with which their enduring souls will suffer not coming into the blissful eternity of relationship with Yahweh through Christ which had been provided.

Sin is always fully dealt with, with being in Christ we can fortunately be covered with Christ having dealt with it for those who come to be in him.

Commands are universal. When commandments are broken, that is sin. So we have what is sin, rebellion against Yahweh's will for us, defined.

I mean for both justification and sanctification. Repentance to sin in anyone's life is always needed. It is not the right gospel that has no need of repentance included.

Christ is always needed for this. But it is not possible to effectively be in Christ without there ever having been repentance. If you never have repented, you are not living according to the gospel of salvation in Christ.

I have read the entire Bible. I don't find free-will taught anywhere.
God tells us that no one seeks God, not even one. Since no one can save themselves, God chooses whom He wills to save. Do you think God is evil for saving some and not all?
Do you wish that God had dropped the gift of salvation on a main Street and those smart enough or lucky enough to unwrap the gift would be saved while all who walked past just died?
When you give a gift, do you tell them that it is for them or do you just leave it on the sidewalk and hope they find it? Are you an evil person because you give a gift to someone you have chosen rather than giving your entire country a gift they are required to run around and find? Don't you play favorites when you give a gift? Not everyone gets a gift from you...do they?
Of course I know I wont change your mind since I know you are wrong so is this just for the sake of argument?

It is great to be able to say we have read all the Bible, as some of us can, even, with some of us, doing so many times. I will still be wary of any who say they know it all, everything about it, already. I do see choice made freely possible, I already mention the phrase from 2 Peter 3:9. Yahweh of course finds us before any of us look for God. And no one can save themselves, salvation is only possible because Christ came for that. God does choose but not without any basis, and is not evil but just for that, with penalty for sin that should come to us as well, but with coming to Christ, which we do with response in repentance, we are that way in Christ who bore the justice for us, all who would come to be in Christ, which God was having possible rather than any just perish.

It is not about being smart enough or lucky enough to unwrap any such thing for salvation. Anyone, children included, can be smart enough. And it isn't luck when Yahweh gives all the opportunity to respond to grace of Yahweh shown to them. All can become aware there is God to respond to.

Since we who are believers are to share the gospel of our faith, it is not like leaving it somewhere hoping it will be found. To compare the opportunity Yahweh God gives to how we would only give a gift to a chosen person is ridiculous, and it make a ridiculous argument.

My mind won't be changed with that. But why observe such being the case when your mind won't be changed? I won't hold that against you. But I will stick to knowledge that is certain, logical reasoning, and what I know is said in the Bible

[MENTION=43]psalms 91[/MENTION]


The Bible does NOT say that God only FOREKNOWS. It says He also PREDESTINES or ELECTS. There is a difference.


To foreknow simply means to be aware of something before it happens. It has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with causing it or desiring it. Of course, for God (alone) such is perfect and for man, it's not. But yes, in a limited way, I FOREKNOW the sun will rise tomorrow (I can even look up and tell you EXACTLY when it will happen where I live). But I have NOTHING to do with it. It's not necessarily my will or the response to ANYTHING in me. Did God foreknow that the devil would rebell? Yes. Did God know that Eve would pick that walnut? Yup. What does this imply? Only one thing, He KNEW.

To predestine or elect means to cause. Lazarus was raised from the dead. Why? Because Jesus performed a miracle and it resulted in Lazarus coming to life. Did God FOREKNOW Lazarus would? Sure, but this foreknowledge had nothing to do with it actually happening. It was His election that brought about the miracle. Did God CAUSE the devil to rebel? No (although He did foreknow it). Did God CAUSE Eve to pic that orange? Nope (unless one is LDS), but He did foreknow it. Do I foreknow that my son will poop in his pants? Yup. Am I the cause of it? Nope. Thus, I can say I have foreknowledge on that, but NOT that I predestine it.

He DOES say he foreknows who will and won't have faith, but it doesn't ONLY say that. Far more often, the Bible says that God ELECTS or CHOOSES or PREDESTINES who will believe.... and the very word means He causes it, He brings it about. This "fits" perfectly with MANY Scriptures that indicate that faith is "the free gift of God" and "no one can even say 'Jesus is Lord' unless the Holy Spirit causes" and "you did not choose me but I choose you" and "salvation is the free gift of God and not by what you do, lest anyone have a reason to boast of themselves."

There is a problem when there is different understanding of terms, such as with foreknow and with predestine. With speaking English you are not aware of two different words of different meaning both translated with the English word know. One is about knowing facts. The other word with very different meaning, applies to knowing someone personally, which is the case with this word. Yahweh already knows the persons who come to God through all Christ has done for it being possible, personally. The ones who would never come to Christ, are not ever known that way, personally. And what is predestined? It is just that, for those already known personally, they are predestined to be like the image of Christ. That is the promise in the predestination actually mentioned. There isn't mention of being predestined to be saved. Those that Yahweh knows already personally, that is, they come to Christ and are saved that way, and are known personally, are those that Yahweh predestines to be in the image of Christ.

 

[MennoSota]

That man wants to be his own god and that reigns in us, even if it seems generally true, is not a passage in the Bible I am familiar with. We do have choices, in some things, if we had no choices, we could give up on what life means for us. We don't just choose holiness, of course, but there is responsiveness for us from what Yahweh does for us. We might choose rightly or wrongly for it, but Yahweh makes it available to us. That is why passages in the Bible say, in places, choose this.



All people are provided choice, at some time, anyway. Yahweh provides for that, not wanting any to perish, but have all come to repentance in faith with which there is salvation. Yahweh is love, is not limited, and so is not callous to humanity's condition, providing this then for all. For those choosing yet rejection of the opportunity Yahweh really gives them, there is the uncompromised justice yet coming, with which their enduring souls will suffer not coming into the blissful eternity of relationship with Yahweh through Christ which had been provided.

Sin is always fully dealt with, with being in Christ we can fortunately be covered with Christ having dealt with it for those who come to be in him.

Commands are universal. When commandments are broken, that is sin. So we have what is sin, rebellion against Yahweh's will for us, defined.

I mean for both justification and sanctification. Repentance to sin in anyone's life is always needed. It is not the right gospel that has no need of repentance included.

Christ is always needed for this. But it is not possible to effectively be in Christ without there ever having been repentance. If you never have repented, you are not living according to the gospel of salvation in Christ.



It is great to be able to say we have read all the Bible, as some of us can, even, with some of us, doing so many times. I will still be wary of any who say they know it all, everything about it, already. I do see choice made freely possible, I already mention the phrase from 2 Peter 3:9. Yahweh of course finds us before any of us look for God. And no one can save themselves, salvation is only possible because Christ came for that. God does choose but not without any basis, and is not evil but just for that, with penalty for sin that should come to us as well, but with coming to Christ, which we do with response in repentance, we are that way in Christ who bore the justice for us, all who would come to be in Christ, which God was having possible rather than any just perish.

It is not about being smart enough or lucky enough to unwrap any such thing for salvation. Anyone, children included, can be smart enough. And it isn't luck when Yahweh gives all the opportunity to respond to grace of Yahweh shown to them. All can become aware there is God to respond to.

Since we who are believers are to share the gospel of our faith, it is not like leaving it somewhere hoping it will be found. To compare the opportunity Yahweh God gives to how we would only give a gift to a chosen person is ridiculous, and it make a ridiculous argument.

My mind won't be changed with that. But why observe such being the case when your mind won't be changed? I won't hold that against you. But I will stick to knowledge that is certain, logical reasoning, and what I know is said in the Bible




There is a problem when there is different understanding of terms, such as with foreknow and with predestine. With speaking English you are not aware of two different words of different meaning both translated with the English word know. One is about knowing facts. The other word with very different meaning, applies to knowing someone personally, which is the case with this word. Yahweh already knows the persons who come to God through all Christ has done for it being possible, personally. The ones who would never come to Christ, are not ever known that way, personally. And what is predestined? It is just that, for those already known personally, they are predestined to be like the image of Christ. That is the promise in the predestination actually mentioned. There isn't mention of being predestined to be saved. Those that Yahweh knows already personally, that is, they come to Christ and are saved that way, and are known personally, are those that Yahweh predestines to be in the image of Christ.

I suggest that you and others badly mangle 1 Peter 3:9 to make it mean what it does not.
Look at the whole context of 1 Peter and of chapter 3 and you will see that verse 9 has nothing to do with free-will. It actually supports the Reformed position of God's Sovereign choice so that not one whom God has chosen will perish.
This passage has been addressed ad nauseum so I will not repeat the exegetical work that has previously been done.

 

[FredVB]

I suggest that you and others badly mangle 1 Peter 3:9 to make it mean what it does not.
Look at the whole context of 1 Peter and of chapter 3 and you will see that verse 9 has nothing to do with free-will. It actually supports the Reformed position of God's Sovereign choice so that not one whom God has chosen will perish.
This passage has been addressed ad nauseum so I will not repeat the exegetical work that has previously been done.

Instead of making personal remarks in response, it is desirable to show actual reasoning for conclusions, which are not yet shown. You are not the only one reading all the Bible many times. What is said can be turned around, that you badly mangle 2 Peter 3:9. I see this response to bringing up this passage in previous communication many times with others, it seems like it is standard from those of that position. As if it isn't known, I have indeed seen the context of the passage. Though the context involves other things, the context has nothing at all to define the passage meaning isn't saying it of all people, and that it does mean all people is consistent with other passages in the Bible. If it is to be defended that the passage does not mean that, the evidence for that should be shown. The claim that it has been while I wasn't here on the forum, in other communication, does nothing for just resorting to personal remarks instead.

Scoffers will come in the last days, in other words, "skeptics" (miscalled as such when they don't really look at any evidence that would conflict with their own ideas), doubters, and others who disbelieve. They will satisfy their own desires with their ideas. Some such would say that there shouldn't be faith and hope of Christ's coming for us, all things just continue as they are, they always have, after all.

It is purposely disregarded that the global catastrophe with the worldwide flood was destructive to everything in the world then. Likewise there is coming destruction to this world with fire that will be in judgment for the unrepented wickedness among humanity against Yahweh the one God, and against God's creation. But Yahweh is patient in the extreme, a thousand years making no more difference than a day with God, who would have opportunity for all, which fairness, with love and compassion which is not limited, involves.

Just as when the Lord Jesus will come for taking those of us who are believers suddenly and unexpectedly, so ultimately when all the world will be exposed to the intense heat to do away with all the corrupted creation remaining to have it replaced with new creation without any corruption, in which those who have repented and are redeemed, and the innocent, are included, it will be sudden and unexpected.

We should be earnest and diligent for Yahweh to find purity without compromise, living to be in peace. Yahweh is extremely patient and longsuffering, for the sake of salvation to those who would come to repentance, which Yahweh leads any to, which we should consider. We shouldn't consider what twists the meaning of scripture passages, to not be led astray.

Grow in grace and knowledge.

 

[MennoSota]

Instead of making personal remarks in response, it is desirable to show actual reasoning for conclusions, which are not yet shown. You are not the only one reading all the Bible many times. What is said can be turned around, that you badly mangle 2 Peter 3:9. I see this response to bringing up this passage in previous communication many times with others, it seems like it is standard from those of that position. As if it isn't known, I have indeed seen the context of the passage. Though the context involves other things, the context has nothing at all to define the passage meaning isn't saying it of all people, and that it does mean all people is consistent with other passages in the Bible. If it is to be defended that the passage does not mean that, the evidence for that should be shown. The claim that it has been while I wasn't here on the forum, in other communication, does nothing for just resorting to personal remarks instead.

Scoffers will come in the last days, in other words, "skeptics" (miscalled as such when they don't really look at any evidence that would conflict with their own ideas), doubters, and others who disbelieve. They will satisfy their own desires with their ideas. Some such would say that there shouldn't be faith and hope of Christ's coming for us, all things just continue as they are, they always have, after all.

It is purposely disregarded that the global catastrophe with the worldwide flood was destructive to everything in the world then. Likewise there is coming destruction to this world with fire that will be in judgment for the unrepented wickedness among humanity against Yahweh the one God, and against God's creation. But Yahweh is patient in the extreme, a thousand years making no more difference than a day with God, who would have opportunity for all, which fairness, with love and compassion which is not limited, involves.

Just as when the Lord Jesus will come for taking those of us who are believers suddenly and unexpectedly, so ultimately when all the world will be exposed to the intense heat to do away with all the corrupted creation remaining to have it replaced with new creation without any corruption, in which those who have repented and are redeemed, and the innocent, are included, it will be sudden and unexpected.

We should be earnest and diligent for Yahweh to find purity without compromise, living to be in peace. Yahweh is extremely patient and longsuffering, for the sake of salvation to those who would come to repentance, which Yahweh leads any to, which we should consider. We shouldn't consider what twists the meaning of scripture passages, to not be led astray.

Grow in grace and knowledge.

I have, in the past shown the actual reasons why your position regarding 2 Peter 3 is so horribly incorrect. I will not bother to feed your ego any further. If you die in your sins you can know you have been warned.

 

[Josiah]

We do have choices, in some things

Of course (no one here has defended the Greek philosophy of Fate). But not in justification. Just as I did not choose to gain physical life, nor did I choose to gain spiritual life. Faith - spiritual life - the Holy Spirit (Justification) are gifts, free gifts, blessings GIVEN not stolen or merited.

but there is responsiveness for us from what Yahweh does for us

Of course, but that's sanctification ("discipleship") not justification. EVERYTHING in our spiritual life after justification is in response to having been given that.

All people are provided choice, at some time, anyway

The DEAD, fallen, unregenerate person may be provided with a "choice" (maybe) but it's one they cannot positively make. Jesus said to DEAD Lazarus, "come out!" But of course Lazarus could not "choose" life, he had to be GIVEN life, which is why the Bible presents this as a MIRACLE performed by JESUS - not a good work of a dead person stinking in the tomb. But YES, once GIVEN life, Lazarus (no longer dead, now alive) RESPONDED. Ah, the distinction between justification and sanctification.

I mean for both justification and sanctification. Repentance to sin in anyone's life is always needed. It is not the right gospel that has no need of repentance included.

I disagree.

"You must repent!" is not a Gospel statement, it is a Law statement. Yes, it is a command given to all.... but since it requires faith, only those justified can and will do it. The DEAD, atheistic, enemy of God who rejects that God even exists and that God has any will (must less a wise and good one) isn't going to REPENT (he may feel remorse, but then so does your dog!).... repent means to realize one has offended the wise will of God, stops, turns to God for mercy and forgiveness and then looks to the Holy Spirit for direction and strength to walk in a new way. That's not something DEAD, faithless atheists do. Lazarus stinking in the tomb could not come out of the tomb no matter how often Jesus called him..... he had to be GIVEN life, then he could hear, then he desired to respond, then he could respond, then he did respond.

But it is not possible to effectively be in Christ without there ever having been repentance

Agreed, but again, you are speaking of sanctification, not justification. You are speaking of one who IS "in Christ" rather than how one becomes "in Christ."

There isn't mention of being predestined to be saved. Those that Yahweh knows already personally, that is, they come to Christ and are saved that way, and are known personally, are those that Yahweh predestines to be in the image of Christ.

I disagree.


Actually, the Bible over and over and over again speaks of the Elect and never once says that justification is simply the result of a DEAD atheistic enemy of God meriting it by choosing it. I hold that Jesus is the Savior, and thus Jesus is the Savior and does the saving. I'm not the Savior.... I don't save anyone (including me). It's not "Jesus PLUS me" making ME the "keystone" the actual factor that determines whether I'm heaven-bound or not (making Jesus the Savior of NONE - maybe a door opener, a possibility-maker, a helper, a teacher, an inspirer - but not actually SAVING anyone).


While how this "cranks out" is MYSTERY, the Bible (and historic Christianity) clearly teaches that those saved where CHOSEN ('elected' 'predestined') by God to be saved. It is NOT a case that God simply knows who will save themselves and thus let's them.... it's NOT simply "foreknowledge" but predestination/election. What's the difference? If I say "I know the sun will rise tomorrow morning" is foreknowledge. "I will cause the sun to rise tomorrow" is predestination. Is God the CAUSE of our salvation (because He is the Savior) or does He simply know ahead of time who will be saved (because He knows everything)? Depends on who you think is the Savior - Jesus or self, who brings about/causes our salvation - Jesus or self.

"Who is The SAVIOR?" Answer that and this whole issue comes into focus.....

Now yes, you will be left with some unanswerable questions, some mysteries ("why aren't all saved?" for example) but not having all the answers to all our questions doesn't make the Bible wrong. It says those who are saved were predestined/elected to be saved. Until Calvin and Arminius came along in the 16th Century, all Christians simply accepted what the Bible states.... and left their questions as questions.





- Josiah



.

 

[Albion]

Now I don't believe I agree with you at all about free will and man being able to choose holiness since man wants to be his own god like Adam and Eve and that reigns in us until we're given faith and then it's not a choosing but it's that we're already there with God. Ya know?

People who are strongly convinced of the freewill POV almost always characterize the other side as thinking that God scripts every thought and action that any one of us ever makes or has when, in reality, that is the belief of hardly any Christian. But as you said, when it comes to choosing holiness (or I would add to that choosing the true God) on our own...our mental abilities really and truly are incapable.

 

[atpollard]

Instead of making personal remarks in response, it is desirable to show actual reasoning for conclusions, which are not yet shown. You are not the only one reading all the Bible many times. What is said can be turned around, that you badly mangle 2 Peter 3:9.

Who is the “YOU” in 2 Peter 3:9?
HINT: see 2 Peter 3:8 “ἀγαπητοί”

 

[Josiah]

Who is the “YOU” in 2 Peter 3:9?

Who is the "any?"

HINT: It doesn't say "not wishing that a small minority of people not perish" or "not wishing that only YOU specifically perish."

 

[Arsenios]

"You must repent!" is not a Gospel statement,
it is a Law statement.

Perhaps you will believe our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ:

Mat 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,
"Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Do you know of some OTHER gospel, Josiah, that is APART FROM THIS Gospel, that Jesus Himself proclaimed?

Believing Jesus very words as recorded in Holy Writ is a good thing, don't you agree?


Arsenios

 

[FredVB]

I have, in the past shown the actual reasons why your position regarding 2 Peter 3 is so horribly incorrect. I will not bother to feed your ego any further. If you die in your sins you can know you have been warned.

I have to wonder how old you really are. Is there maturity shown with this response? Must there be personal remarks brought in, and basis to say I or any will die in our sins? I wouldn't tell others they will die in their sins anyway without sharing the way from God's grace to have deliverance from that.

To be clear, nothing I communicated involved my ego. I clearly communicated what is said in the third chapter of the second epistle from Peter.

If there would only be that kind of communication in return, it would be better to not continue with dialogue any further. If such a way of communicating was used before by any, how do they last in these forums with that, I would wonder.

Of course (no one here has defended the Greek philosophy of Fate). But not in justification. Just as I did not choose to gain life, nor did I choose to gain spiritual life. Faith - spiritual life - the Holy Spirit (Justification) are gifts, free gifts, blessings GIVEN not stolen or merited.

Of course, but that's sanctification ("discipleship") not justification. EVERYTHING in our spiritual life after justification is in response to having been given that.

Though there is slight distinction in meaning, what was said applies to justification too. Jesus preached repentance with which there is justification, such as in Luke 18:14. There is response that must happen where God said to choose, even where it was to those among whom were many who perished. The choice is from response to God.

The DEAD, fallen, unregenerate person may be provided with a "choice" (maybe) but it's one they cannot positively make. Jesus said to DEAD Lazarus, "come out!" But of course Lazarus could not "choose" life, he had to be GIVEN life, which is why the Bible presents this as a MIRACLE performed by JESUS - not a good work of a dead person stinking in the tomb. But YES, once GIVEN life, Lazarus (no longer dead, now alive) RESPONDED. Ah, the distinction between justification and sanctification.

"You must repent!" is not a Gospel statement, it is a Law statement. Yes, it is a command given to all.... but since it requires faith, only those justified can and will do it. The DEAD, atheistic, enemy of God who rejects that God even exists and that God has any will (must less a wise and good one) isn't going to REPENT (he may feel remorse, but then so does your dog!).... repent means to realize one has offended the wise will of God, stops, turns to God for mercy and forgiveness and then looks to the Holy Spirit for direction and strength to walk in a new way. That's not something DEAD, faithless atheists do. Lazarus stinking in the tomb could not come out of the tomb no matter how often Jesus called him..... he had to be GIVEN life, then he could hear, then he desired to respond, then he could respond, then he did respond.

Now yes, you will be left with some unanswerable questions, some mysteries ("why aren't all saved?" for example) but not having all the answers to all our questions doesn't make the Bible wrong. It says those who are saved were predestined/elected to be saved. Until Calvin and Arminius came along in the 16th Century, all Christians simply accepted what the Bible states.... and left their questions as questions.

It is the gospel statement to repent, as has been pointed out. I actually don't know how any are missing that. And there isn't basis to say God does not provide for that to some, even if because they never sought God ever before.

Those that are elected, which means those who are chosen, are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. That does not mean that Yahweh does not choose those who respond with repenting, that would be added meaning and it is not biblical meaning with basis.

That doesn't seem like a good perspective of the history of Christians. Christians in general up to the sixteenth century did not have Bibles they studied themselves.

Who is the "any?"
HINT: It doesn't say "not wishing that a small minority of people not perish" or "not wishing that only YOU specifically perish."

This makes the point that I speak for. "Any" means any. The context is saying this is why God is waiting this long time, not meaning it is with inaction, but when God's grace is enough to bring in all that ever do respond and are justified (which actually means being in Christ who bore everything that we live in Christ's righteousness).