Sharing statements on Christian theology

[Josiah]

Free will in our choices is a reality. Over and over we are told in scripture that we are to choose, for something in godliness.

Who is "we?"

IF "we" are Christians - persons to whom God has given spiritual life, the Holy Spirit, faith in Christ, justification - then I agree.

IF "we" means dead, unregenerate enemies of God and atheists void of the Holy Spirit, void of faith, void of life - then I disagree.

In the second epistle of Peter, it is said that God is not willing that any would perish but that all would come to repentance with which there is salvation, with Christ. Not all do, certainly, with being the case from free will. Coming to this is the narrow way, that is with coming to Christ, most choose in resisting that, even if with considering another way right, still.

The Bible says NO ONE is CAPABLE of choosing Jesus..... of giving self life, the Holy Spriit and faith. Jesus said, "you did not choose me but I chose you." Dead folks can't do much.


I agree with you that those who are dead were not made so by God. I agree God actively chooses no one for Hell (take that up with radical Calvinists). But it's unbiblical to twist that upside down, to make the opposite claim, and insist that because God desires all be saved, ergo if they are not they CHOSE that and if they are they CHOSE that. Arminius is just as uniblical as were those radical Calvinists; "free will" just as unbiblical as "double predestination." WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW why some come to faith and some do not, because the Bible NEVER SAYS. Arminius THEORIZED it's because people give self spiritual life, the Holy Spirit, faith, justitication (making Jesus just an OFFERER of salvation, not THE Savior). Problem is, not only does NOT the Bible say that, it actually contradicts lots of Scriptures. Radical Calvinists theorize it's because God WANTS most to fry in hell and so keeps them from faith. Problem is, not only does NOT the Bible say that but it actually contradicts a lot of Scriptures.

This we can say. And this has been the position of orthodox, traditional Christianity for 2000 years (apart from a FEW who echo either Arminius or Calvinists): IF we are saved, it's wholly because of Jesus. IF we are not, it's wholly because of our sin. Now you can ask all the questions about that you want, but you may not answer them with theories that appeal to YOU and then require God agree with you. The Bible is not an answer book. NEVER did God tell us to fill in the blanks, to answer questions for Him, to force Him to make sense to US. He said to believe. He said His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. He told us to be "Stewards of the MYSTERIES of God" never saying "Try your best to clean up what I said and make it make sense and jibe with human thoughts."





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[FredVB]

Who is "we?"

IF "we" are Christians - persons to whom God has given spiritual life, the Holy Spirit, faith in Christ, justification - then I agree.

IF "we" means dead, unregenerate enemies of God and atheists void of the Holy Spirit, void of faith, void of life - then I disagree.

The Bible says NO ONE is CAPABLE of choosing Jesus..... of giving self life, the Holy Spriit and faith. Jesus said, "you did not choose me but I chose you." Dead folks can't do much.

I agree with you that those who are dead were not made so by God. I agree God actively chooses no one for Hell (take that up with radical Calvinists). But it's unbiblical to twist that upside down, to make the opposite claim, and insist that because God desires all be saved, ergo if they are not they CHOSE that and if they are they CHOSE that. Arminius is just as uniblical as were those radical Calvinists; "free will" just as unbiblical as "double predestination." WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW why some come to faith and some do not, because the Bible NEVER SAYS. Arminius THEORIZED it's because people give self spiritual life, the Holy Spirit, faith, justitication (making Jesus just an OFFERER of salvation, not THE Savior). Problem is, not only does NOT the Bible say that, it actually contradicts lots of Scriptures. Radical Calvinists theorize it's because God WANTS most to fry in hell and so keeps them from faith. Problem is, not only does NOT the Bible say that but it actually contradicts a lot of Scriptures.

This we can say. And this has been the position of orthodox, traditional Christianity for 2000 years (apart from a FEW who echo either Arminius or Calvinists): IF we are saved, it's wholly because of Jesus. IF we are not, it's wholly because of our sin. Now you can ask all the questions about that you want, but you may not answer them with theories that appeal to YOU and then require God agree with you. The Bible is not an answer book. NEVER did God tell us to fill in the blanks, to answer questions for Him, to force Him to make sense to US. He said to believe. He said His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. He told us to be "Stewards of the MYSTERIES of God" never saying "Try your best to clean up what I said and make it make sense and jibe with human thoughts."

I would dignify with answering a response to what I last posted in response to you. But this post is responding to the original post in this thread, from me, that you had posted a response to then, with the same points, and I responded to that adequately. It does nothing to advance any discussion to do that, and I won't go back to cover the same ground in the discussion all over again.

You may have missed the significance of my last post previous to this response, it was a response to you just previous to that.

I will study precise meanings, rather than accept being told what they are. I believe any of us should do that. About "foreknowledge",

προγινώσκω proginōskō

From*πρό*and γινώσκω*

γινώσκω ginōskō

I can speak more than english. English has one word "know" that is applied to different things, and so have actually different meanings, that in such other languages have different terms for those meanings.

In the Greek, this word ginōskō carries the idea of knowledge grounded in personal experience. It is to know and to experience, and that means to understand. In the Jewish religious sense of the day, it was used to describe sexual relations between a man and a woman, as in Adam knew Eve. Ginōskō, therefore, is an intimate knowledge of a person, or a thing.

This means that foreknowledge that God expressed he had, meant in the original writing that God personally knows certain individuals, this is distinct from God knowing everything, as God does, foreknowledge of certain individuals is with personal relationship they have with God, and God already knows them before they ever start, and God chooses them. God certainly has basis, and good basis, for choosing, it is not at all arbitrary, and justice that we have a sense of, though it is not a quality of this physical existence, has basis from God's fairness and justice, which would be meaningful for us. So all are given a chance, no one goes to hell without any chance of choosing in ways not to, though the possible way not to is just available from God, according to God's grace. But those chosen are those God foreknows, and God foreknows those because of their relationship with God, in the prayerful relationship through Christ.

 

[Arsenios]

Revelation 3:14,19-22
“Behold, I stand at the door and knock.
If anyone hears my voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him
and eat with him,
and he with me."

Notice that Jesus is addressing Christians...not the unsaved.

By your false theory, God got it wrong...

He did not know what he was saying...

God obviously SHOULD HAVE SAID:

"If ANYONE",
except, of course, those who are unsaved,
whom I have not yet Justified,
and who are not yet in the Church
and may never be in the Church...

I say if ANYONE
EXCEPT those whom Menno mentions...

I say if ANYONE,
except Menno's exceptions to My Word ANYONE...

"Should hear My Voice..."

So IF you hear God's Holy Voice...
And IF you are not saved...
And IF you are not already in a Church..
Then follow Menno's words and depart in shame...

IF you hear God's Holy Voice, do NOT OPEN THE DOOR...
God will NOT come in...
God will NOT eat with you...
UNLESS you are ALREADY SAVED, get it?

I thank Menno for Menno getting God STRAIGHT on this matter...

We might have all falsely gone on thinking God meant what He actually said:

"IF ANYONE SHOULD HEAR MY VOICE AND OPENS THE DOOR..."

We might actually think that HEARING the voice of God and OPENING the door are things a MAN MUST DO...

And that he must do these things in order that God will come in through that door to him...

And that they should eat together...

Thanks to Menno, God has been squared away and corrected...

When are you gonna publish YOUR new Bible, Menno?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

By your false theory, God got it wrong...

He did not know what he was saying...

God obviously SHOULD HAVE SAID:

"If ANYONE",
except, of course, those who are unsaved,
whom I have not yet Justified,
and who are not yet in the Church
and may never be in the Church...

I say if ANYONE
EXCEPT those whom Menno mentions...

I say if ANYONE,
except Menno's exceptions to My Word ANYONE...

"Should hear My Voice..."

So IF you hear God's Holy Voice...
And IF you are not saved...
And IF you are not already in a Church..
Then follow Menno's words and depart in shame...

IF you hear God's Holy Voice, do NOT OPEN THE DOOR...
God will NOT come in...
God will NOT eat with you...
UNLESS you are ALREADY SAVED, get it?

I thank Menno for Menno getting God STRAIGHT on this matter...

We might have all falsely gone on thinking God meant what He actually said:

"IF ANYONE SHOULD HEAR MY VOICE AND OPENS THE DOOR..."

We might actually think that HEARING the voice of God and OPENING the door are things a MAN MUST DO...

And that he must do these things in order that God will come in through that door to him...

And that they should eat together...

Thanks to Menno, God has been squared away and corrected...

When are you gonna publish YOUR new Bible, Menno?


Arsenios

Jesus is speaking to the church of Laodicea in Revelation 3. It has literally nothing to do with salvation.
God did not get it wrong. You got it wrong.

 

[Arsenios]

Jesus is speaking to the church of Laodicea in Revelation 3. It has literally nothing to do with salvation.
God did not get it wrong. You got it wrong.

Well, I think you will agree with me that this would not be the first time, yes?

The pericope indeed does begin: "To the Angel of the Church in Laodokia..."

So we agree that He is addressing this Church...

But nothing to do with Salvation?

Did He not say they are lukewarm in their deeds, neither hot nor cold, and for that reason He is about to spit them OUT?

How do you understand this as being unrelated to Salvation...

Even so, I do agree that God did not get it wrong...

And I say to you your very own words to me:

"You got it wrong."

Because in order to NOT get spat out of the Mouth of God, they had to DO some DEED that is neither hot nor cold...

I took that to mean that in order to not LOSE their Salvation, etc etc...

How does it mean other than that?



Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Well, I think you will agree with me that this would not be the first time, yes?

The pericope indeed does begin: "To the Angel of the Church in Laodokia..."

So we agree that He is addressing this Church...

But nothing to do with Salvation?

Did He not say they are lukewarm in their deeds, neither hot nor cold, and for that reason He is about to spit them OUT?

How do you understand this as being unrelated to Salvation...

Even so, I do agree that God did not get it wrong...

And I say to you your very own words to me:

"You got it wrong."

Because in order to NOT get spat out of the Mouth of God, they had to DO some DEED that is neither hot nor cold...

I took that to mean that in order to not LOSE their Salvation, etc etc...

How does it mean other than that?



Arsenios

Pay attention to verse 19

"Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent."

It is to that group that he says, "Behold I stand at the door and knock."

He is not telling those whom He loves that his atonement was not good enough because their sins were greater than his atoning sacrifice.
Yet, that is precisely what you are claiming in this letter to the angel at Laodicea.

Revelation 3:14-22 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation. “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

 

[Arsenios]

Pay attention to verse 19

"Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent."

It is to that group that he says, "Behold I (always) stand at the door and am knocking."

So because Christ is addressing the Angel of the Church at Laodicea...

Are you concluding that Christ is not standing at the door and knocking for anyone else???

Are you concluding that ONLY the Laodiceans are loved by Him and being disciplined?

Because vs 18 sets the table for vs 19...

Which is why vs 20 means literally ANYONE...

And not merely Laodiceans...

Because Christ is ALWAYS standing at each person's door, and He is always knocking, and nobody EVER hears Him knocking, except on relatively rare occasions...

And notice He does NOT say: "Because I will GIVE you repentance..." (which is, I believe, one of your pet tenets, yes?)...

But instead He COUNSELS them...

And IF...

IF they are overcoming...

IF they are conquering demonic powers and principalities...

ONLY IF, Menno, my young friend...

ONLY IF they are overcoming sin...

Will they THEN eat with Christ and sit on His Throne with Him...

He is not telling those whom He loves that his atonement was not good enough because their sins were greater than his atoning sacrifice.
Yet, that is precisely what you are claiming in this letter to the angel at Laodicea.

You keep hurling this false accusation, yet the simple truth is that it is not the atoning sacrifice that is lacking, but the repenting of the sinner...

Without YOU repenting there is NO Salvation by Christ...

Christ did His Part, and continues to do so...

Everything now predicates on what YOU do...

Everything YOU do matters eternally...

And Repenting is Struggle to the End...


Arsenios

Revelation 3:14-22 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation. “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, Christ is standing at the door of those who are elect. Yes, God loves those whom he chooses. He hates those who do not have their sins atoned for (Read Romans 9).
Revelation and the letters are for the elect, not for the dead.

 

[Arsenios]

Revelation and the letters are for the elect, not for the dead.

Well we can agree on this...

The letters are pastoral, for the most part, and are addressing issues arising in the Churches where the Great Apostle, Paul, is the Angel of those Churches...

Somewhat similarly, the instructions given by Christ are for John to give TO the Angels of the Seven Churches, addressing their particular issues...

Not all the Angels of the Churches, apparently, were "hearing" Christ, hence John's intermediation to them from Christ's Revelation...

Yet more, this IS, after all, Revelation, and the Seven Churches are serving that Revelation as Types as well as severally...

I mean, if God can't speak with His Angels, how can John, right?

Yet He had no problem with Paul's Churches, did he? At least not at this particular time...

And Revelation is about the End Times, about what Christian Life will be, since Christ's Ascension...

And it is, in the 7 Churches, about 7 very generic problems that had and will and do arise in Churches...

Because the members of the Churches have all been Baptized BY these Churches INTO Christ...

They are, as Churches, the Elect...

They also have tares with the Wheat - Goats with the sheep...

And this is how God addresses them, with encouragement...

With what they have done that is right...

With what is wrong in their lives...

And Menno, God is not telling them that He will give them repentance...

He is telling them that they need to change themselves...

Because they are screwing up badly...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Well we can agree on this...

The letters are pastoral, for the most part, and are addressing issues arising in the Churches where the Great Apostle, Paul, is the Angel of those Churches...

Somewhat similarly, the instructions given by Christ are for John to give TO the Angels of the Seven Churches, addressing their particular issues...

Not all the Angels of the Churches, apparently, were "hearing" Christ, hence John's intermediation to them from Christ's Revelation...

Yet more, this IS, after all, Revelation, and the Seven Churches are serving that Revelation as Types as well as severally...

I mean, if God can't speak with His Angels, how can John, right?

Yet He had no problem with Paul's Churches, did he? At least not at this particular time...

And Revelation is about the End Times, about what Christian Life will be, since Christ's Ascension...

And it is, in the 7 Churches, about 7 very generic problems that had and will and do arise in Churches...

Because the members of the Churches have all been Baptized BY these Churches INTO Christ...

They are, as Churches, the Elect...

They also have tares with the Wheat - Goats with the sheep...

And this is how God addresses them, with encouragement...

With what they have done that is right...

With what is wrong in their lives...

And Menno, God is not telling them that He will give them repentance...

He is telling them that they need to change themselves...

Because they are screwing up badly...


Arsenios

Paul was dead by the time Jesus sent the letter. Each letter was for the pastor of that church. The writing is very specific to the respective church. They would clearly understand what Jesus was saying to them. The churches, today, can take general truths from these letters. For example, God would rather we were useful hot water or useful cold water. Lukewarm water quenches no one. Lukewarm coffee? Blech!
It is poor hermeneutics to apply these letters to unsaved person's.

 

[Arsenios]

Paul was dead by the time Jesus sent the letter. Each letter was for the pastor of that church. The writing is very specific to the respective church. They would clearly understand what Jesus was saying to them. The churches, today, can take general truths from these letters. For example, God would rather we were useful hot water or useful cold water. Lukewarm water quenches no one. Lukewarm coffee? Blech!
It is poor hermeneutics to apply these letters to unsaved person's.

Paul was martyred by this time, of course, but none of the Churches he founded, including mine at Antioch, was mentioned by Christ in Revelation...

Look - IF the "Angel" of each Church needed John to TELL HIM, then that Angel was not hearing the risen Christ...

And that Risen Christ stands at their door and is knocking...

And they were not hearing them...

I believe Laodocia was lost...

The Lampstand is a 7 Candle Menora that lives on the Altar of each Church...

Without it one cannot do Christian Services...

And this particular Church, if my history is aright, did have it's Lampstand removed...

Please correct me if I am wrong...

I think I learned it from a Lutheran Pastor on the radio named Dr. Kennedy?


Arsenios

 

[FredVB]

I will study precise meanings, rather than accept being told what they are. I believe any of us should do that. About "foreknowledge",

προγινώσκω proginōskō

From*πρό*and γινώσκω*

γινώσκω ginōskō

I can speak more than english. English has one word "know" that is applied to different things, and so have actually different meanings, that in such other languages have different terms for those meanings.

In the Greek, this word ginōskō carries the idea of knowledge grounded in personal experience. It is to know and to experience, and that means to understand. In the Jewish religious sense of the day, it was used to describe sexual relations between a man and a woman, as in Adam knew Eve. Ginōskō, therefore, is an intimate knowledge of a person, or a thing.

This means that foreknowledge that God expressed he had, meant in the original writing that God personally knows certain individuals, this is distinct from God knowing everything, as God does, foreknowledge of certain individuals is with personal relationship they have with God, and God already knows them before they ever start, and God chooses them. God certainly has basis, and good basis, for choosing, it is not at all arbitrary, and justice that we have a sense of, though it is not a quality of this physical existence, has basis from God's fairness and justice, which would be meaningful for us. So all are given a chance, no one goes to hell without any chance of choosing in ways not to, though the possible way not to is just available from God, according to God's grace. But those chosen are those God foreknows, and God foreknows those because of their relationship with God, in the prayerful relationship through Christ.

Because in order to NOT get spat out of the Mouth of God, they had to DO some DEED that is neither hot nor cold...

I took that to mean that in order to not LOSE their Salvation, etc etc...

It would indeed mean that those spoken to, who God spits out, are unbelievers. It does not mean they lose their salvation. No verse means believers lose their salvation. Those who persist to the end are believers who give evidence of their faith and walk in Christ, which real believers generally do. It distinguishes the false believers from them, as the false believers will not persist. They do not lose salvation they had, the unbelievers, including false believers who are among believers in churches, do not have salvation. If they continue that way they will not persist to the end. Such could be ones God spits out, and then they won't have opportunity that will be left to come to real salvation, the kind that isn't just claimed and professed. Real faith is with repentance, coming to God through Christ for turning from sin and being in relationship with God through Christ and living for him.