Salvation

[MennoSota]

Seems that those on the Lord's right inherit eternal life; that's about salvation isn't it?

Which nations are on the right?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Which nations are on the right?

Nation, people, or individuals who are "the just" are on the right. They inherit eternal life. The passage is about eternal life and eternal punishment so it gives every appearance of being about salvation, does it not?

 

[TurtleHare]

Nation, people, or individuals who are "the just" are on the right. They inherit eternal life. The passage is about eternal life and eternal punishment so it gives every appearance of being about salvation, does it not?

We are just on account of the Savior and not on account of our own merit is that something you could agree with or do you reject it?

 

[MennoSota]

Nation, people, or individuals who are "the just" are on the right. They inherit eternal life. The passage is about eternal life and eternal punishment so it gives every appearance of being about salvation, does it not?

It is about entering the Kingdom when Jesus returns. Depending upon your eschatology this may be in reference to the 1000 year reign of Christ.
What we know is that neither had a clue about what God was looking for. God chose one and rejected the other because the ones on the right had helped the elect.
Matthew 25:31-46
[31]“But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne.
[32]All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
[33]He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.
[34]“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.
[35]For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home.
[36]I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
[37]“Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink?
[38]Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing?
[39]When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
[40]“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’
[41]“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.
[42]For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink.
[43]I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
[44]“Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’
[45]“And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’
[46]“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is about entering the Kingdom when Jesus returns. Depending upon your eschatology

What you say may depend on "your eschatology" but it is evident that what Jesus said does not depend on your eschatology. Jesus will separate the righteous from the cursed ones giving eternal life to the righteous ones and the cursed one will go into eternal punishment.

this may be in reference to the 1000 year reign of Christ.
What we know is that neither had a clue about what God was looking for. God chose one and rejected the other because the ones on the right had helped the elect.
Matthew 25:31-46
[31]“But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne.
[32]All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
[33]He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.
[34]“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.
[35]For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home.
[36]I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
[37]“Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink?
[38]Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing?
[39]When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
[40]“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’
[41]“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.
[42]For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink.
[43]I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
[44]“Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’
[45]“And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’
[46]“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

I added the bold and underline to some salient words in the passage, to draw your attention to them because it is self evident in the words of the Lord that the passage is the scene of the last judgement in which men and women will be separated to face their reward of eternal life or eternal punishment.

 

[MennoSota]

What you say may depend on "your eschatology" but it is evident that what Jesus said does not depend on your eschatology. Jesus will separate the righteous from the cursed ones giving eternal life to the righteous ones and the cursed one will go into eternal punishment.



I added the bold and underline to some salient words in the passage, to draw your attention to them because it is self evident in the words of the Lord that the passage is the scene of the last judgement in which men and women will be separated to face their reward of eternal life or eternal punishment.

Those whom God has elected to make righteous will be chosen.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Those whom God has elected to make righteous will be chosen.

What you wrote above is true. Now back the the passage. It is about eternal life and eternal punishment. You asked if it was about salvation. The answer is yes. It is about salvation. The ones who are given eternal life are the ones of whom Jesus says "35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: 36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink? 38 Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee? 40 And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me." (Matthew 25:35-40)

 

[Albion]

What you say may depend on "your eschatology" but it is evident that what Jesus said does not depend on your eschatology. Jesus will separate the righteous from the cursed ones giving eternal life to the righteous ones and the cursed one will go into eternal punishment.



I added the bold and underline to some salient words in the passage, to draw your attention to them because it is self evident in the words of the Lord that the passage is the scene of the last judgement in which men and women will be separated to face their reward of eternal life or eternal punishment.

Your view is a common if errant one. It suggests that God has not decided the fate of each of us until the Judgment when he hears our pleas...and that he then considers the evidence like a judge in small claims court, and makes a decision. “Okay...you to eternal life, him to hellfire. Next case?!“

Its part of the standard Roman Catholic teaching that none of us can know whether we will make the cut or not, right up to the minute of our deaths, and that, in addition, it isn't final even then since there is a Purgatory awaiting every one of us who escapes Hell.

None of the language of scripture that you underlined in your post refers to that, although it might seem at a glance that it does.

At the Judgment, our deeds, our failings, our trust in the promises of Christ, etc. are presented--thrown up to us, we might say--and justice is administered accordingly. God certainly has known from all eternity what the fate of each of us will be.








.

 

[Arsenios]

One such Scripture is Ephesians 2:8


Also see 1 Corinthians 2:14 Ephesians 2:8-9 1 Corinthians 12:3, 1 Corinthians 6:11


Read the words.

Let me reply in kind:

Read Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Revelation...

And the Psalms, especially the first 10...

Read the words...

See my problem?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Already answered (several times). See post 538 for example.






Thank you!

There is ONE NAME under heaven by which we may be saved.... there is ONE SAVIOR (hint: it can't the one any see in the mirror.... you might consider the first 6 letters of the name of our religion for a clue)




.

The answer you gave is BOTH...

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Let me reply in kind:

Read Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Revelation...

And the Psalms, especially the first 10...

Read the words...

See my problem?

Arsenios

No. I assumed you could read. I gave you ONE verve - with 4 others to support it. ALL you need do is put your curser over the verse and bingo, up come the few words. Which state what I did.


No. I didn't not assign you two million verses to read on your own (although reading the Bible would be a good thing in understanding that each of us keeping the law does not save, Jesus does).

 

[Josiah]

The answer you gave is BOTH...

Correct. Jesus' works "count" in justification, ours do in sanctification.



.

 

[Arsenios]

Jesus will separate the righteous from the cursed ones
giving eternal life to the righteous ones
and the cursed one will go into eternal punishment.

The passage is the scene of the last judgement
in which men and women will be separated to face their reward
of eternal life
or
eternal punishment.

This is the full and final Salvation, of which in this life we receive but an earnest...

So that in one sense, Justification, being an intermediary Gift from God between the Call of God and the Glorificaiton of God is then seen as perhaps, may we say, provisional Salvation? eg It has to be thrown away to be lost... The Salvation of the Call of God has to be repented for to be attained... And the Salvation of the Glorification of God is nigh unto impossible to lose...

It is the teaching of the Church, as I understand it, even if only a pious opinion, a theologoumenon, that those Glorified by God bypass the Dread and Last Judgement... These are few... As our Lord teaches us:

Mat 7:14
Because strait is the gate,
and narrow is the way,
which leadeth unto Life,
and few there be that find it.

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Jesus' works "count" in justification, ours do in sanctification.

God Justifies...
God Sanctifies...
God Judges...

So does God Justify, Sanctify, and Judge based on God's actions?
Or does He do so on the basis of what are man's actions?

Does God Justify man on the basis of God's actions?
Or...
Does God Justify man on the basis of man's actions?

Did God Justify Cain on the basis of Cain's Actions?
Or did God NOT Justify Cain on the basis of Cain's Actions?

OR...
As you seem to say...
Did Cain's actions have nothing to do with God's granting or witholding his Justification...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

No. I assumed you could read. I gave you ONE verve - with 4 others to support it. ALL you need do is put your curser over the verse and bingo, up come the few words. Which state what I did.


No. I didn't not assign you two million verses to read on your own (although reading the Bible would be a good thing in understanding that each of us keeping the law does not save, Jesus does).

I ran the cursor and did not see your point being made...

So I asked...

And got rebuked...

I deserve worse!

But not for asking...

Arsenios


Arguing from Scripture is not mere citation of Scripture...

 

[Arsenios]

God certainly has known from all eternity what the fate of each of us will be
.

Indeed...

And at that Dread and Last of Times...

We too will face our eternity...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Complacency begins
when we no longer see the gift of each new day,
when we lose our gratitude for what we have been given.
God gives us all things simply because He loves us,
yet He lets us work for these things
so we will appreciate them more.

His Eminence, Metropolitan JOSEPH

 

[MoreCoffee]

Your view is a common if errant one. It suggests that God has not decided the fate of each of us until the Judgment when he hears our pleas...and that he then considers the evidence like a judge in small claims court, and makes a decision. “Okay...you to eternal life, him to hellfire. Next case?!“

You've painted an imaginative picture. One entirely of your own, having nothing whatever to do what anything I said and nothing to do with anything that I believe, nor is it even remotely related to the teaching of Christ in the passage quoted by Mennosota.

Matthew 25:31-46
[31]“But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne.
[32]All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
[33]He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.
[34]“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.
[35]For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home.
[36]I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
[37]“Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink?
[38]Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing?
[39]When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
[40]“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’
[41]“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.
[42]For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink.
[43]I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
[44]“Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’
[45]“And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’
[46]“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”​

In Mennosota's quote the judgement follows separation of the righteous from the cursed ones and then the judgement is pronounced on the separate groups - those on the right are, as a group, judged as Christ's own people who receive eternal life in recognition of their righteousness towards "the least of these my brethren" and those on the left, as a group, are judged as cursed ones who receive eternal punishment in consequence of their not doing righteously towards "these least".

Its part of the standard Roman Catholic teaching

It is not Catholic teaching it's a contrivance of your own, an invention with a background in some religious groups within Protestantism.

that none of us can know whether we will make the cut or not, right up to the minute of our deaths

Are you worried by that? Is the idea of being in the hands of God regarding your final salvation a scary prospect for you? It ought not to be. God is just and the justifier of those who believe in Jesus (Romans 3:26). It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

, and that, in addition, it isn't final even then since there is a Purgatory awaiting every one of us who escapes Hell.

None of the language of scripture that you underlined in your post refers to that, although it might seem at a glance that it does.

At the Judgment, our deeds, our failings, our trust in the promises of Christ, etc. are presented--thrown up to us, we might say--and justice is administered accordingly. God certainly has known from all eternity what the fate of each of us will be.

Your final comments are right to say that purgatory, nor might I add is the imaginary scene that you painted earlier, is not contained in Jesus teaching about the last judgement in Matthew 25. So let's continue to deal with what Jesus teaches and abandon the irrelevant matters that you've mentioned.

 

[MoreCoffee]

This is the full and final Salvation, of which in this life we receive but an earnest...

So that in one sense, Justification, being an intermediary Gift from God between the Call of God and the Glorificaiton of God is then seen as perhaps, may we say, provisional Salvation? eg It has to be thrown away to be lost... The Salvation of the Call of God has to be repented for to be attained... And the Salvation of the Glorification of God is nigh unto impossible to lose...

It is the teaching of the Church, as I understand it, even if only a pious opinion, a theologoumenon, that those Glorified by God bypass the Dread and Last Judgement... These are few... As our Lord teaches us:

Mat 7:14
Because strait is the gate,
and narrow is the way,
which leadeth unto Life,
and few there be that find it.

Arsenios

Another poster, a protestant one, observed that salvation has tenses. It does.

There's salvation from dangers in this life. That is present tense. If it is remembered then it is past tense.

There's salvation at the last judgement. That's future tense.

There's salvation from sin. That's present continuous tense; we are saved and are constantly being saved from sins.

There's the salvation worked by Jesus Christ. That's past tense when the cross is considered and present tense when application of its benefits is considered and future tense when its final effect is considered.

Of course all salvation is a consequence of the grace of God in Jesus Christ and the cross is absolutely pivotal in it.

Jesus is the saviour, no one else is, yet every Christian participates in the work of Christ when they spread the gospel, suffer for Christ's sake, and do the good works that he prepared for them to do and to live in.

 

[Josiah]

Jesus is the saviour, no one else is, yet

There's the Roman Catholic problem..... "Jesus is the Savior BUT......"


What comes after the "but" tends to negate the clause before it. For example, things our Catholic teachers taught us:
"Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta yet yourself through it by what YOU do."
"Jesus technically saves no one but He makes it possible for everyone to save themselves."

The "problem" in modern, popular Catholicism (already illustrated by the Indulgence sellers Luther noted) is the mixture of Justifcation with Sanctification, becoming a Christian with living as a Christian.... the extreme watering down of both Law and Gospel, then mixing them up, entangling them, twisting them.... all to make the Law as meaningless as possible, the Gospel as meaningless as possible.... to make Christ as small as possible, self as big as possible... and to give the RC denomination a role (a critical one) in salvation (thus underpinning the POWER it so lusts for).

every Christian participates in the work of Christ when they spread the gospel, suffer for Christ's sake, and do the (Christians) good works that he prepared for them (Christians) to do and to live in.

Again, no one on the planet Earth has ever disagreed with that..... but you (in typical Catholic fashion) simply are trying to confuse, entangle, blend justification with sanctification to make Jesus as irrelevant as possible, to make Jesus little more than a helper (and only one of those) and a possibility-maker. Pop Catholicism does this by changing the topic to Sanctificati0on (one we all agree upon, a topic where Catholics are correct, a topic where Scripture agrees) and then impute it to an entirely different topic, Justification. Because Sanctification is progressive and synergistic does NOT mandate that ERGO justification is. But you are getting to the topic that split western Christianity: Luther (wrongly) tbought the RC denomination would be horrified by the obvious heresy being preached by the Indugence sellers - the semi-Pelagianism, the synergism, the denials of the Gospel, the making Jesus irrelevant and what each person does salvic, all in clear violation of the Council of Orange, etc, etc., etc., etc. But the RCC did something no one could have predicted - it made the heresy of those pitchmen it's new dogma. And you are promoting it. Now, the RCC never deleted the older (correct) soteriology in the process, so we have the mess we see today.