Pelosi not for impeachment, saying Trump isn't worth it

MoreCoffee

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There are no grounds for impeachment just wishful thinking on the partisan left

There are grounds for impeachment but little likelihood of a senate conviction at this time. It is not mere partisanship that makes Nancy Pelosi hesitate about impeachment in the house it is the sure knowledge that conviction cannot come until the republicans in the senate indicate their willingness to convict.
 

Andrew

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There are grounds for impeachment but little likelihood of a senate conviction at this time. It is not mere partisanship that makes Nancy Pelosi hesitate about impeachment in the house it is the sure knowledge that conviction cannot come until the republicans in the senate indicate their willingness to convict.
Explain the grounds then please, what has Trump specifically done that he deserves impeachment over it?
 

Andrew

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Explain the grounds then please, what has Trump specifically done that he deserves impeachment over it?
I never get a straight answer for this btw
 

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tango

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The list is pretty ridiculous and stretching it but I googled and found this
https://www.needtoimpeach.com/impeachable-offenses/
Donald Trump's 10 Impeachable Offenses

At least some of that looks like it's really struggling to join the dots. Without specifically looking to verify the truth of the claims behind them all, my thoughts were"

1. If he has interfered in a judicial process that's really not good. That said the investigation into Russia has been going on for two years now and despite endless press reports that this person or that person is "talking" there still seems to be nothing tangible coming from it.

2. I'm not familiar with the wording of the "foreign emoluments" clause although there is clearly a large difference between accepting something as a gift from a foreign official and accepting payment for services rendered. Perhaps the wording of the constitution does technically render receiving payment for servces rendered unacceptable just because it happened to be from a foreign government official but unless there are claims that a foreign official staying in a hotel and paying the going rate is somehow an unusual process this seems like clutching at straws.

3. A big mix-n-match of loosely related things that don't support each other. Being invited to a meeting isn't the same as soliciting something of value. If a meeting offering the dirt on Hillary Clinton is considered to be "something of value" perhaps the bigger problem is the amount of dirt on Clinton, rather than Trump's son accepting an invite to discuss it.

4. Encouraging the police to rough up suspects is bad. Without seeing the "anti-Muslim" content it's hard to comment - something that genuinely calls anyone who worships Allah a terrorist is obviously a very different proposition from wanting to be careful we don't let Islamic terrorists slip into the country on the pretense of being tourists or refugees.

5. The third paragraph talks of "allowing" rather than "requiring" issuing and enforcing, so on that basis use of a pardon doesn't seem like a violation. Bad form perhaps, but not a clear violation.

6. Little more than an opinion piece. On the face of it his little Twitter-spat with Kim Jong-un seemed provocative but it's not as if he's the child throwing rocks at the battalion of tanks. He's the one with the power to annihilate the other, and he's the one who got Kim Jong-un to the negotiating table unlike many of his predecessors.

7. Given the concerns about Hillary Clinton's private email server and the potential to have stored highly classified material in an insecure manner it's not as clear-cut as a simple claim his motives were political. Maybe there were motivated in part by politics but given the admissions by the investigators (Comey? I forget) it seems like her being cleared was a coverup on a much larger scale than anything Trump is accused of doing.

8. These days it's all but impossible to gather what is fake news and what is genuine. If you look at CNN and Fox you'd wonder whether they are talking about the same things but apparently they are. Saying that critical articles are untrue doesn't seem like grounds for impeachment. I'm not sure you can sensibly get from the claims in (8) to a reasonable argument that the constitution is under threat.

9. Separating children from their bona fide parents seems excessive. But let's not forget that an adult coming to the country illegally made a choice to break the law and it doesn't necessarily follow that the child is their child. Perhaps people would be happier if the children were locked up in adult facilities, even if the "parent" was an adult trying to traffic the child into a prostitution ring or something. Or should children be given a free pass where breaking the law is concerned, just because they didn't make an active decision? If we're going there, does the child who grew up wealthy because Daddy was a drug lord get to keep their lifestyle when Daddy goes to prison and has his assets seized?

10. If he truly committed a felony then by all means have at it. Personally I'd have thought such clear-cut evidence would be used early on rather than being left at the bottom of a list somewhere behind allegations, investigations and things that drag on for so long the public memory has all but forgotten stuff.

As you say, it's a pretty lame list.
 

Josiah

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There are grounds for impeachment


That's an UNKNOWN....

The Constitution doesn't give any "grounds" so anyone can claim that there is or is not "grounds." But as I understand it, it has been the understanding for over 100 years that this cannot be for political reasons but must be for s felony committed while in office. For both Nixon (who resigned before any formal charge was made) and for Clinton, it was lying under oath. But of course, while the House impeached Clinton (which is simply a formal slap on the hand), the Senate choose to not remove him from office (lots of Americans don't understand that impeachment does NOT remove the person from office, it simply can be used as CAUSE to do so).

The libs have been OBSESSED with this "witch hunt" for over 2 years, starting before he was even elected. And they have found NOTHING.... certainly not a serious felony while in office. Yes, they HATE him with a passion, and it is intensely personal, but it seems that's NOT understood as grounds to overturn an election and remove a disliked politian. If it was, we'd no longer be a democracy and no longer would elections matter. But I suspect this doesn't matter to the libs who HATE this man and HATE that he beat Hilary.




- Josiah
 

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Yeh, I have to say that I was impressed that our colleague knows that there are grounds for impeachment when no one else does.

Even the two most outspoken proponents of impeachment that the House of Representatives has--Al Green and Maxine Waters--have not come up with any. He says that being a bigot is good enough (which of course it is not) and she just says that if the votes are there it doesn't matter if there are no valid grounds.
 

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Yeh, I have to say that I was impressed that our colleague knows that there are grounds for impeachment when no one else does.

Even the two most outspoken proponents of impeachment that the House of Representatives has--Al Green and Maxine Waters--have not come up with any. He says that being a bigot is good enough (which of course it is not) and she just says that if the votes are there it doesn't matter if there are no valid grounds.


So much for democracy.... so much for respecting our elections..... so much for the Rule of Law....
 

tango

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So much for democracy.... so much for respecting our elections..... so much for the Rule of Law....

Like I said, things would be so much easier if we could simply move from the inauguration straight to the impeachement and select the next puppet for the show.
 

NewCreation435

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There are grounds for impeachment but little likelihood of a senate conviction at this time. It is not mere partisanship that makes Nancy Pelosi hesitate about impeachment in the house it is the sure knowledge that conviction cannot come until the republicans in the senate indicate their willingness to convict.

So, do you think she is right that starting the impeachment process would further divide the country and he isn't worth it?
 

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Well, honestly, regardless of politcal fallout, or what seems to be a waste, Congress has a duty to enforce the law. They have to impeach him for obstruction of justice. That's all there is to it! I say, this while not saying if I support Trump or not.
 

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There is no *duty* to impeach anyone unless he has committed a high crime or misdemeanor. :eek:hnoes:
 

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So, do you think she is right that starting the impeachment process would further divide the country and he isn't worth it?

If she thought impeachment were possible, she would be all for it.
 

MoreCoffee

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Well, honestly, regardless of politcal fallout, or what seems to be a waste, Congress has a duty to enforce the law. They have to impeach him for obstruction of justice. That's all there is to it! I say, this while not saying if I support Trump or not.

Donald is safe for the time being, the Republicans do not yet believe that supporting him will damage them in an election more than turning against him would. As long as the calculation is positive for supporting him most of the Republican party members of congress will support him.
 

MoreCoffee

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So, do you think she is right that starting the impeachment process would further divide the country and he isn't worth it?

I do not know what Donald is worth morally speaking and the USA seems very internally divided anyway so an impeachment from the house and a not guilty verdict from the Senate would not do a lot to make the country more divided but it might make Donald more popular with Republican leaning people and some swing voters, maybe. Nancy is calculating the electoral value of impeachment and so far she is not convinced it is a net positive for her party. I think it is a cynical exercise for both Republicans and Democrats even though I personally think that Donald is a terrible person and a very bad president.
 

tango

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I personally think that Donald is a terrible person and a very bad president.

Really? From your endless previous posts I wasn't sure what you thought about The Donald.
 

FredVB

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Any other president before could be impeached for less things. Obstruction of justice alone would call for it. Prior to his election, which had this behind him winning the electoral vote, he was calling "Lock her up!" with far less basis. He serves really his own interest, it isn't the country's, and immediate goals of big businesses are all that any changes from him have served, with benefiting the finances of rich people. He just works against the interests of poor people, disabled people, minorities, immigrants and their children, and without question his changes are completely at the cost of environment and global concerns. His selfserving interest while blind to many other things does not have him worthy of respect as a leader, I see this use of the office is despicable. And the wall he sees need of building at the expense of anything is not shown to be effectively helpful for anything.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=-26ddqZHXUk
 

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Totally agree Fred
 

Albion

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Any other president before could be impeached for less things.

The truth is that no president before Trump had articles of impeachment brought against him for something like Trumps enemies are claiming justifies it now.

Obstruction of justice alone would call for it.
If there were any.

Prior to his election, which had this behind him winning the electoral vote, he was calling "Lock her up!" with far less basis. He serves really his own interest, it isn't the country's, and immediate goals of big businesses are all that any changes from him have served, with benefiting the finances of rich people. He just works against the interests of poor people, disabled people, minorities, immigrants and their children, and without question his changes are completely at the cost of environment and global concerns. His selfserving interest while blind to many other things does not have him worthy of respect as a leader, I see this use of the office is despicable. And the wall he sees need of building at the expense of anything is not shown to be effectively helpful for anything.
You cannot make a case for impeachment simply because of a personal hatred towards the president. Nor has it ever been accomplished before (since you referred us to prior presidents in your opening remarks).
 

tango

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Any other president before could be impeached for less things. Obstruction of justice alone would call for it. Prior to his election, which had this behind him winning the electoral vote, he was calling "Lock her up!" with far less basis. He serves really his own interest, it isn't the country's, and immediate goals of big businesses are all that any changes from him have served, with benefiting the finances of rich people. He just works against the interests of poor people, disabled people, minorities, immigrants and their children, and without question his changes are completely at the cost of environment and global concerns. His selfserving interest while blind to many other things does not have him worthy of respect as a leader, I see this use of the office is despicable. And the wall he sees need of building at the expense of anything is not shown to be effectively helpful for anything.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=-26ddqZHXUk

Far less basis? If you or I kept classified material on an unsecured server on our own premises we'd most likely face jail time for it. But Queen Hillary apparently thought that a (C) on a classified document merely meant it was copyrighted. Bless her naive little heart.

I've never enjoyed anything like the level of security clearance Hillary Clinton must have had as Secretary of State but apparently I know more than she does about how classified information is supposed to be handled and protected.
 
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