Okay, let's talk about predestination

MennoSota

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Hi MennoSota

Thanks for sharing that story, it must have been really gut-wrenching, and Im glad the Lord gave you more grace to bear and mercy and pulled you out of that despair (I can relate to it sooo much, though for diff reasons, but I know those depths of seeming hopelessness.

And I know if I dwell on the way things and myself were, the enemy can exploit that thinking and pull right me back into it, if only for a temporory time, but yes, depression and sorrow can really throw you into a tailspin). Thank God for His saving grace and His mercies being new every morning.

Im interested in knowing from your perspective now, (and believe me, I dont understand all the catagories and definitions of all the groups and sub-groups, so Im not sure on any given day what box some person or another might put me in)

But for yourself, you said you were once on a 'free-will church environment' ... I dont know what that really means ... Is that like charismatic, like free-will worship environment?
Or free to believe different things about who God is?
Or is that what some ppl argue about saying there are ppl claiming to save themselves and Jesus isnt their Saviour, self is. (Ive never understood that one.)

Or is it something else? (I think I said before, I may have had Mennonites as some ancestors were PA Dutch, but I dont know the religion much, except I thought they were like Amish.
I read a bit more of it recently.)

But my question is, now that you left the free-will church and joined a different one, do you think being in this other church would have helped you with your friend? IOW, do you think there might have been a different outcome (and of course, we dont know it, Id like to think your friend got saved, and maybe the word you planted, (God planted thru you) had effect before he drew his last breath, Gods grace and mercy and love is abundant, abounding.)

Im just trying to understand, unless your church was teaching a false gospel, like works-righteousness, all these things YOU have TO DO, in order to obtain salvation, and even then there's still have no assurance, (there are denominations, cults and offshoots, big and small, that teach those things), what was the error that you saw in that church that might have been a stumbling block, if any, to your friend.

(And I do share in your hurt over that, .... excuse my language, but, sometimes it really really sucks living in a fallen world, but I confess I added my share of fallenness and hurt to it, and that really grieves me sometimes, I know that feeling of wanting to kill yourself, when I think of the wretchedness of my own heart.)

I'm not sure where to begin. I may miss something.
1) Free-will is what Arminius and Pelagius promoted. It states that God offers salvation to all, but the individual is responsible to pick God's offer from all the other options being offered. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin of unbelief. God gives humans the freedom of their own will to believe or not believe. You can change your mind or act in such a way that leads to hell, even if you claim to be a Christian.
2) Mennonite's get their name from the Anabaptist reformer, Menno Simons a German monk, who questioned Luther, Zwingli and Calvin in regard to infant baptism and in regard to the merger of church and state (Menno called for the church and state to be independent of each other). Amish and Hutterites are spurs that came out of Mennonites. They felt the Mennonite's were becoming too liberal.
3) Would it have helped me to grow up in a Reformed Baptist church in relation to how I processed my grief? I think it would have reduced the self-centered guilt, but the deep grief would have remained. (Interestingly, the historical roots of my present church follow a very similar route to Mennonites. Both fled Germany and ended up in the Ukraine where they eventually fled the Tzar to the United States.)
Ultimately we cannot change the past. God ordained my path exactly as it has progressed. I have been given my path for the glory of God and to comfort those with the comfort by which God has comforted me.
4) The error is in teaching that my actions can somehow thwart the will of God. It produces a subtle pride in my own actions and my efforts to make sure God is not hindered and is well pleased in me. It's man-centered.
The truth is that God is entirely Sovereign and his will is always accomplished. If God desired my friend to be adopted, then he would have done so. And, frankly, only God knows what relationship he had with God. I hope that somehow, by God's gracious favor, my friend was redeemed. But, only God and my friend know. I must be content in God's sovereign choice, knowing God is not obligated to save even one sinner.
In the end, God is good all the time and all the time God is good.
 

psalms 91

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We are born with free will and it is Gods forejnowledge of our choices that predestines us, not God arbitrarily picking and choosing. Even Judas up until he did what he did had the option to turn, of course God knew he wouldnt not because God made him do it but because God knew his choice beforehand.
 

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I'm not sure where to begin. I may miss something.
1) Free-will is what Arminius and Pelagius promoted. It states that God offers salvation to all, but the individual is responsible to pick God's offer from all the other options being offered. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin of unbelief. God gives humans the freedom of their own will to believe or not believe. You can change your mind or act in such a way that leads to hell, even if you claim to be a Christian.
2) Mennonite's get their name from the Anabaptist reformer, Menno Simons a German monk, who questioned Luther, Zwingli and Calvin in regard to infant baptism and in regard to the merger of church and state (Menno called for the church and state to be independent of each other). Amish and Hutterites are spurs that came out of Mennonites. They felt the Mennonite's were becoming too liberal.
3) Would it have helped me to grow up in a Reformed Baptist church in relation to how I processed my grief? I think it would have reduced the self-centered guilt, but the deep grief would have remained. (Interestingly, the historical roots of my present church follow a very similar route to Mennonites. Both fled Germany and ended up in the Ukraine where they eventually fled the Tzar to the United States.)
Ultimately we cannot change the past. God ordained my path exactly as it has progressed. I have been given my path for the glory of God and to comfort those with the comfort by which God has comforted me.
4) The error is in teaching that my actions can somehow thwart the will of God. It produces a subtle pride in my own actions and my efforts to make sure God is not hindered and is well pleased in me. It's man-centered.
The truth is that God is entirely Sovereign and his will is always accomplished. If God desired my friend to be adopted, then he would have done so. And, frankly, only God knows what relationship he had with God. I hope that somehow, by God's gracious favor, my friend was redeemed. But, only God and my friend know. I must be content in God's sovereign choice, knowing God is not obligated to save even one sinner.
In the end, God is good all the time and all the time God is good.
Thanks for that!
I have a hat that says the last line, 'God is good all the time', and the full saying is a popular one among friends in a ministry I support. (On retreat, we'll often hear one person yell the first part, God is good, and then hear another voice answer with the second part, then the 1st person says the third part and the 2nd person answers back with the last. From diff areas of the woods, you might hear it yelled out, lol. Sort of a tradition!

In reading, I think I agree with PART of point-1, but not all, and def not the last sentence.
I do believe the sin of unbelief, in the sense of deliberate, ultimate rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ and His substitutionary atoning sacrifice of Himself for our sins, cant be forgiven.
I do believe there is more of Gods grace, goodness mercy and love, than we will ever know, but no, should we sin more that grace might abound? God forbid. (But I never really met anyone that says that we should, lol).

Anyway, I wasnt really asking about how you might have assessed the grief differently if you were in the different church or set of beliefs, I was more wondering if you thought it would have had a different influence on your friends faith, or lack of it.

I agree with you, that we're not responsible for another person getting saved, like you said, one plants, another waters, God gives the increase. So we have the 'Whos to thank/Whos to blame' thing, but, as you said, the Lord is sovereign over all the affairs of men. Maybe we can influence things, though?

But I know I had alot of religion/religious types in my family, its just the way it was for most of their generation, you went to church on Sunday, you raised the kids in all the traditional religious works stuff, baptism, communion, confirmation, etc, and you lived a decent life as best as you could.

But through the 60s and 70s alot changed, and formalized, liturgical church stuff was just...stuffy, and the times were ripe for all kinds of crazy things to explode.
Along with that was the Jesus People Movement, where the first guitars and other instruments began being used in a new contemporary style worship, leading to alot of what you see today in non-denom churches, and alot of mainline ones too, and the youth really brought new life to things that had grown pretty stale and the 'generation gap' was a big problem. Much of that was overcome through the years, praise the Lord. (But may be creeping back in, sadly, I hope not).

So, Im just wondering if certain doctrines and practices are a sort of 'turn-off' to some ppl, where they might otherwise at least consider the message of salvation.
But of course, as I write this Im sounding to myself very '70's-ish-American' and its now near 2018, and the gospel is going out thru electronic devices and there are places where ppl are getting saved that most ppl didnt even know existed 50 years ago. So much has changed, but the Lord is still on His throne, and He's the same yesterday, today, and forever.
God bless you, brother.
 

MennoSota

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Thanks for that!
I have a hat that says the last line, 'God is good all the time', and the full saying is a popular one among friends in a ministry I support. (On retreat, we'll often hear one person yell the first part, God is good, and then hear another voice answer with the second part, then the 1st person says the third part and the 2nd person answers back with the last. From diff areas of the woods, you might hear it yelled out, lol. Sort of a tradition!

In reading, I think I agree with PART of point-1, but not all, and def not the last sentence.
I do believe the sin of unbelief, in the sense of deliberate, ultimate rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ and His substitutionary atoning sacrifice of Himself for our sins, cant be forgiven.
I do believe there is more of Gods grace, goodness mercy and love, than we will ever know, but no, should we sin more that grace might abound? God forbid. (But I never really met anyone that says that we should, lol).

Anyway, I wasnt really asking about how you might have assessed the grief differently if you were in the different church or set of beliefs, I was more wondering if you thought it would have had a different influence on your friends faith, or lack of it.

I agree with you, that we're not responsible for another person getting saved, like you said, one plants, another waters, God gives the increase. So we have the 'Whos to thank/Whos to blame' thing, but, as you said, the Lord is sovereign over all the affairs of men. Maybe we can influence things, though?

But I know I had alot of religion/religious types in my family, its just the way it was for most of their generation, you went to church on Sunday, you raised the kids in all the traditional religious works stuff, baptism, communion, confirmation, etc, and you lived a decent life as best as you could.

But through the 60s and 70s alot changed, and formalized, liturgical church stuff was just...stuffy, and the times were ripe for all kinds of crazy things to explode.
Along with that was the Jesus People Movement, where the first guitars and other instruments began being used in a new contemporary style worship, leading to alot of what you see today in non-denom churches, and alot of mainline ones too, and the youth really brought new life to things that had grown pretty stale and the 'generation gap' was a big problem. Much of that was overcome through the years, praise the Lord. (But may be creeping back in, sadly, I hope not).

So, Im just wondering if certain doctrines and practices are a sort of 'turn-off' to some ppl, where they might otherwise at least consider the message of salvation.
But of course, as I write this Im sounding to myself very '70's-ish-American' and its now near 2018, and the gospel is going out thru electronic devices and there are places where ppl are getting saved that most ppl didnt even know existed 50 years ago. So much has changed, but the Lord is still on His throne, and He's the same yesterday, today, and forever.
God bless you, brother.
No, it would not have changed the outcome, which God ordained. If God were to choose him, it may have been another who watered, but it is always Jesus who makes the dead seed come to life.
 

user1234

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No, it would not have changed the outcome, which God ordained. If God were to choose him, it may have been another who watered, but it is always Jesus who makes the dead seed come to life.
Okay, but again, we dont know the outcome. We'll lean towards Gods grace and mercy for your friend and for you too for comfort, and after all, He loves your friend more than you do. (Im not being starry-eyed or dodging reality for fantasyland, just believing in Gods power and love and ability to do wonderful things). Keep the faith, as I know you will, and thx for your sound thinking and care.
 

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"Predestined" is mentioned once in the Catechism of the Catholic Church Compendium in answer 67.

67. For what purpose did God create man and woman?

God has created everything for them; but he has created them to know, serve and love God, to offer all of creation in this world in thanksgiving back to him and to be raised up to life with him in heaven. Only in the mystery of the incarnate Word does the mystery of the human person come into true light. Man and woman are predestined to reproduce the image of the Son of God made Man, who is the perfect “image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15).​

358-359 (CCC sections)
Paragraph 6. MAN

355 "God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them."[SUP](Gen 1:27)[/SUP] Man occupies a unique place in creation:
(I) he is "in the image of God";
(II) in his own nature he unites the spiritual and material worlds;
(III) he is created "male and female";
(IV) God established him in his friendship.​

I. "IN THE IMAGE OF GOD"

356 of all visible creatures only man is "able to know and love his creator". He is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake", and he alone is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God's own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity:
What made you establish man in so great a dignity? Certainly the incalculable love by which you have looked on your creature in yourself! You are taken with love for her; for by love indeed you created her, by love you have given her a being capable of tasting your eternal Good.​

357 Being in the image of God the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. and he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead.

358 God created everything for man, but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to him:
What is it that is about to be created, that enjoys such honour? It is man that great and wonderful living creature, more precious in the eyes of God than all other creatures! For him the heavens and the earth, the sea and all the rest of creation exist. God attached so much importance to his salvation that he did not spare his own Son for the sake of man. Nor does he ever cease to work, trying every possible means, until he has raised man up to himself and made him sit at his right hand.​

359 "In reality it is only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of man truly becomes clear."

St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men:
Adam and Christ. . . the first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. the first Adam was made by the last Adam, from whom he also received his soul, to give him life... the second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him. That is why he took on himself the role and the name of the first Adam, in order that he might not lose what he had made in his own image. the first Adam, the last Adam: the first had a beginning, the last knows no end. the last Adam is indeed the first; as he himself says: "I am the first and the last."​
380-381 (CCC sections)
380 "Father,. . . you formed man in your own likeness and set him over the whole world to serve you, his creator, and to rule over all creatures" (Roman Missal, Eucharistic Prayer IV, 118).

381 Man is predestined to reproduce the image of God's Son made man, the "image of the invisible God" (⇒ Col 1:15), so that Christ shall be the first-born of a multitude of brothers and sisters (cf ⇒ Eph 1:3-6; ⇒ Rom 8:29).
 

MennoSota

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Okay, but again, we dont know the outcome. We'll lean towards Gods grace and mercy for your friend and for you too for comfort, and after all, He loves your friend more than you do. (Im not being starry-eyed or dodging reality for fantasyland, just believing in Gods power and love and ability to do wonderful things). Keep the faith, as I know you will, and thx for your sound thinking and care.
God hates sin. Yes, he loves his creation, but sin is hated by God. He is not obligated to extend grace to us who are justly damned by our sin. I accept God's righteous decision as the Sovereign King and Judge.
 

MennoSota

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"Predestined" is mentioned once in the Catechism of the Catholic Church Compendium in answer 67.

67. For what purpose did God create man and woman?

God has created everything for them; but he has created them to know, serve and love God, to offer all of creation in this world in thanksgiving back to him and to be raised up to life with him in heaven. Only in the mystery of the incarnate Word does the mystery of the human person come into true light. Man and woman are predestined to reproduce the image of the Son of God made Man, who is the perfect “image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15).​

358-359 (CCC sections)
Paragraph 6. MAN

355 "God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them."[SUP](Gen 1:27)[/SUP] Man occupies a unique place in creation:
(I) he is "in the image of God";
(II) in his own nature he unites the spiritual and material worlds;
(III) he is created "male and female";
(IV) God established him in his friendship.​

I. "IN THE IMAGE OF GOD"

356 of all visible creatures only man is "able to know and love his creator". He is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake", and he alone is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God's own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity:
What made you establish man in so great a dignity? Certainly the incalculable love by which you have looked on your creature in yourself! You are taken with love for her; for by love indeed you created her, by love you have given her a being capable of tasting your eternal Good.​

357 Being in the image of God the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. and he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead.

358 God created everything for man, but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to him:
What is it that is about to be created, that enjoys such honour? It is man that great and wonderful living creature, more precious in the eyes of God than all other creatures! For him the heavens and the earth, the sea and all the rest of creation exist. God attached so much importance to his salvation that he did not spare his own Son for the sake of man. Nor does he ever cease to work, trying every possible means, until he has raised man up to himself and made him sit at his right hand.​

359 "In reality it is only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of man truly becomes clear."

St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men:
Adam and Christ. . . the first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. the first Adam was made by the last Adam, from whom he also received his soul, to give him life... the second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him. That is why he took on himself the role and the name of the first Adam, in order that he might not lose what he had made in his own image. the first Adam, the last Adam: the first had a beginning, the last knows no end. the last Adam is indeed the first; as he himself says: "I am the first and the last."​
380-381 (CCC sections)
380 "Father,. . . you formed man in your own likeness and set him over the whole world to serve you, his creator, and to rule over all creatures" (Roman Missal, EP IV, 118).

381 Man is predestined to reproduce the image of God's Son made man, the "image of the invisible God" (⇒ Col 1:15), so that Christ shall be the first-born of a multitude of brothers and sisters (cf ⇒ Eph 1:3-6; ⇒ Rom 8:29).
Hinestly, MC, no one should care whether the Roman church catechism mentions predestination.
 

MoreCoffee

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Hinestly, MC, no one should care whether the Roman church catechism mentions predestination.

I care and maybe some others want to see and understand for themselves what Catholics teach. It is a courtesy to offer the information and, God willing, a mercy to show God's grace in Christianity Haven.
 

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I care and maybe some others want to see and understand for themselves what Catholics teach. It is a courtesy to offer the information and, God willing, a mercy to show God's grace in Christianity Haven.
The Holy scriptures speak of predestination. If your church fails to teach what the Bible teaches then it should be a red flag regarding your church.
 

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The Holy scriptures speak of predestination. If your church fails to teach what the Bible teaches then it should be a red flag regarding your church.


Trying to be nice, the latest current-edition of the ever-changing RC Denomination Catechism is just a summery of what the Bishops would like the laity to know right now.... it's not meant to be all-inclusive by any means. Historically, the RCC has had MUCH to say on this - indeed, at least 2 of the 7 Ecumenical Councils were about this, and at least up to the time of the Reformation, it was clear on this. BTW, it was an issue that Luther and the RC Denomination largely agreed upon, both distancing themselves from Theodore Beza and from Pelagianism but leaving much to mystery.

But yes, IMO, the modern RCC has well drifted back into semi-Pelagianism (at least commonly even if officially it's just a mess), with this semi-Pelagianism has come a desire to just forget about Election. And I think that's what the modern RC Denomination has done. Again, in defense, so has a lot of Protestantism. You and I, MennoSota, are Monergists but the tide has been moving against that position for some centuries now... and a fruit of that is the lost of this teaching (which non-Lutherans have often framed as against synergism but which Lutherans simply present as an aspect of the Gospel).
 

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The Holy scriptures speak of predestination. If your church fails to teach what the Bible teaches then it should be a red flag regarding your church.

The holy scriptures in some English translations have the word "predestination" but that is not the same thing as teaching a doctrine of predestination that is like the one that John Calvin taught. The Catholic Church does a fine job of teaching what the holy scriptures teach.

Some take a passage such as this one

Romans 8:28-30 We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. [29] For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.

and construe it to teach that God predestines some to eternal life and that God also predestines some to eternal punishment. Is that your view MennoSota?
 

NewCreation435

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Trying to be nice, the latest current-edition of the ever-changing RC Denomination Catechism is just a summery of what the Bishops would like the laity to know right now.... it's not meant to be all-inclusive by any means. Historically, the RCC has had MUCH to say on this - indeed, at least 2 of the 7 Ecumenical Councils were about this, and at least up to the time of the Reformation, it was clear on this. BTW, it was an issue that Luther and the RC Denomination largely agreed upon, both distancing themselves from Theodore Beza and from Pelagianism but leaving much to mystery.

But yes, IMO, the modern RCC has well drifted back into semi-Pelagianism (at least commonly even if officially it's just a mess), with this semi-Pelagianism has come a desire to just forget about Election. And I think that's what the modern RC Denomination has done. Again, in defense, so has a lot of Protestantism. You and I, MennoSota, are Monergists but the tide has been moving against that position for some centuries now... and a fruit of that is the lost of this teaching (which non-Lutherans have often framed as against synergism but which Lutherans simply present as an aspect of the Gospel).

why do you think the tide as you put it has moved away from monergists? Do you think perhaps it is human pride that we feel in some way that we must earn salvation rather than freely accept it?
 

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The holy scriptures in some English translations have the word "predestination" but that is not the same thing as teaching a doctrine of predestination that is like the one that John Calvin taught. The Catholic Church does a fine job of teaching what the holy scriptures teach.

Some take a passage such as this one

Romans 8:28-30 We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. [29] For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.

and construe it to teach that God predestines some to eternal life and that God also predestines some to eternal punishment. Is that your view MennoSota?

Human sin predestined all to eternal punishment. This was established at the fall. The fact that out of an entire human race of rebels, bent on displacing God, God chooses some to redeem, is amazing grace. That is what the Bible very clearly teaches. Yet, your church perverts the teachings of the Bible for its own power. Such corruption in one church is truly from hell and yet you remain in such a corrupt environment. Why? Why not live out the scriptures rather than a corrupt catechism?
 

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why do you think the tide as you put it has moved away from monergists? Do you think perhaps it is human pride that we feel in some way that we must earn salvation rather than freely accept it?


A good theory....
 

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God hates sin. Yes, he loves his creation, but sin is hated by God. He is not obligated to extend grace to us who are justly damned by our sin. I accept God's righteous decision as the Sovereign King and Judge.
No, not obligated, no.
But He gives it anyway. Yes, He hates sin so much, He had to look away when Jesus was paying the penalty for our sin upon the cross.
He became sin for us. Gods wrath was poured out on Him. And by His grace, we stand clothed in the righteousness of Christ. Amazing, awesome, love!

Hinestly, MC, no one should care whether the Roman church catechism mentions predestination.
Im glad they mention these things, but I just wish they would encourage their members to read the bible more, not the catechisms, and teach them salvation by grace. There are RCatholic raised ppl that get saved, and thats wonderful, but the hierarchy has the bible, they know what it says...I still dont understand how they can teach some of the things they do in light of Gods Word staring right at them.
But I dont blame the members...the leaders are held more accountable, imo.
I think many of the ppl get saved, not because of the denomination, but in spite of it,
and I believe thats true for them all, in the sense that there is only One Body of Christ.
Im not sure why we have denominations at this point, but God allows it, so Im sure theres a good reason. Maybe to keep each other in check, in a certain way. Maybe we're not ready for the 'That they all may be one' yet?
I think some of the denominational catechisms and instructions might be helpful for some for practical, disciplined living, but thats a separate issue from salvation by grace.

We're justified by faith, and we have peace with God because of Jesus, not because of keeping rules. But some of those other things might help ppl to walk and grow in some areas of life, but ... Salvation first.
 

MoreCoffee

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Human sin predestined all to eternal punishment. This was established at the fall. The fact that out of an entire human race of rebels, bent on displacing God, God chooses some to redeem, is amazing grace. That is what the Bible very clearly teaches.

It doesn't look so clear, but okay you think it is.
 

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... but the hierarchy has the bible, they know what it says...

I read the bible from cover to cover most years. I am not a member of the hierarchy. I know a lot of Catholics who read the bible regularly.
 

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No, not obligated, no.
But He gives it anyway.
No, God doesn't give it away.
God chooses exactly to whom He displays His grace.
His reason for choosing someone is a mystery because all humanity is equally sinful and fallen. God is Sovereign. He does what He chooses. He makes the laws. He chooses whom He will pardon as He wills.
It is our nature to demand that God explain His choices. He has no reason to explain Himself. He is God is all the reason that is needed.
 

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