Okay, let's talk about predestination

[NewCreation435]

A Look at Ephesians 1:4-5
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.” NASV

Some key words to pick out from this passage and ideas

Vs.4- “He chose” eklegomai is the transliterated word meaning to pick out, choose, to pick or to choose out for one’s self. He did this it says before the foundation of the world. IN other words, before we could say or do anything to earn it. He did this for the purpose of our being holy and blameless before Him.

Vs.5- The word predestined is mentioned. It is used six times in scripture and his the word proorizo. Most often translated predestined but also determine before and ordain. Used in Acts 4:28, Romans 8:29.30, 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5,11.
Vs.5 He predestined us to adoption as sons- this word adoption as sons is used 5x in Romans 8:15,23, Romans 9:4, Gal 4:5 and Ephesians 1:5.
Vs.5 a key word is “through”. He did this through Jesus Christ. The word through is dia which means the ground or reason by which something is or is not done. He is the reason and the grounds upon which those who are predestined could be chosen.
Vs.5 the kind intention- eudokia most often translated “good pleasure”, will or choice.

So, if God chose us before the foundations of the world then the whole basis on which a person is saved has nothing to do with what we do? Or does it? If God alone predestined a person and we have nothing to do with it then how can a person be sure they were one of the ones who are predestined? What does this imply about evangelistic efforts?

Please remember to share your thoughts in a way that is respectful

 

[Josiah]

See post 15




.

 

[user1234]

Hi jsimms435
In the OP, your last sentence takes all the fun out of it, but I'll try. :disgonbegood::slap:

Can I take some time to look at the passage in context in the bible and reply afterward?

I have some thoughts, but I'm guessing this may be one of those questions that we never seem to get everybody to agree on.

(Keep in mind, I have T-shirt that says, 'Let's assume I'm right, it'll save time') lol

I still owe popsthebuilder a reply in another thread, (sorry pops, I will try to) and it runs a similar course...
Grace alone. Faith alone. Faith apart from works. Faith without works, etc.

God made salvation as easy as He possibly could for us.
Simple child-like faith in Jesus.

We've been the ones complicating it for centuries...partly because of our stubborness and our fallen nature, but alot of times because God is so awesome, salvation including life beyond the grave, the meaning of life overall...and love, is so amazing, it overwhelms us,

and even though we hunger for it so, we have a hard time understanding and accepting that something so profound and complex and beautiful could be so free and easy to receive.

But....just to get the complication ball rolling...I dont think the predestination being talked about here is a simple statement saying "God picked certain ppl to be saved and others not to be". I dont think 'who gets saved or how?' is really the main point Paul is trying to make to the Ephesians.

I think Ive said it elsewhere, this great little letter should really be taken as a whole, imo. I think taking certain verses out to dissect their meaning in isolation or by pairing them with other verses from other letters here and there detract from it a bit.
But Im not criticizing the OP, its an interesting discussion.

Again, just my opinion, if it cant be taken as a whole, at least take it full passage by full passage at a time.
In this case, verses ~3 to14~ (15 starts with a 'wherefore', indicating we should read the preceeding passage to get the whole point in context.) Verses 3-14.

Then, it might lead to the answer of not only the WHO or HOW of predestination, but to the greater answer of WHY, which I believe is found in verse 6, 10, 12, and 17-20.

But again, I find it hard to just read a verse or two of this epistle...I start it and often find I cant stop, or at least the first 3 chapters together.

Thanks jsimms435 for allowing me to toss my opinion into this.

 

[MoreCoffee]

To me predestination seems like a topic that people talk about when they are bored nearly witless.

 

[user1234]

Not like 90% of the other thread topics started on chatforums,
or the ppl who live there :yawning: (I gotta get a life, lol)

Btw, how do you start a thread? Does anyone have permission?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not like 90% of the other thread topics started on chatforums,
or the ppl who live there :yawning: (I gotta get a life, lol)

Btw, how do you start a thread? Does anyone have permission?

if you're in a this thread already then click "christian theology" just above the "reply" button. It in a line of text that looks like this Forum=>Theology=>Christian Theology=>Okay, let's talk about predestination

After that you should see a a button somewhere on the screen that says "Post new thread"

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

To me predestination seems like a topic that people talk about when they are bored nearly witless.

You want to see a real flame war? Try getting Lutherans and Reformed to see eye to eye about predestination. We believe that God leads the saved to Glory, but people select damnation for themselves. The Reformed say that God chooses the elect for salvation and the unsaved for damnation. That's called " double predestination."

 

[MennoSota]

God chose those whom he would "pluck" out of rebellion before the world began. There is no need to predestine humanity to hell. Humans own sin did that for them. The wages of sin is universal. All humanity is judged according to God's law and found guilty. The predestination is only for those whom God chose to write down in the Lambs book of Life as the ones He would adopt.
This presentation of God's Sovereign choosing starts in Genesis 1 and continues to Revelation 22. What Paul shares in Ephesians 1 is not some isolated idea that is foreign to the rest of scripture. No, it is a clear expression of what God has always done. God has always been a gracious God who chooses to spare a remnant as His own expression of kindness to an undeserving creation whom He made in His image.

 

[MennoSota]

The five articles of the Remonstrants (followers of Arminius) in Dordt, which then lead to the 5 point response by Calvinists later established by the acronym, TULIP.
The section on predestination is relevant to this thread as there are some who would agree with the Remonstrants here at the CH.
http://www.crivoice.org/creedremonstrants.html

 

[user1234]

Wow, Im so glad to have been spared so much of the religiosity.
I dont know Lutherists from Calvinites or the strange ecumenical conglomeration where the Roman Catholic denomination is trying to get Lutherans AND Pentecostals AND Episopals, i think it is, or some liberal group, to join hands, out on youtube and other websites, its not even a secret agenda anymore.
And I dont know Reformers from Armenians or even what a Protestant is according to definition supposed to be and is that a good thing or a bad thing.
I only know Jesus saved me by shedding His blood and dying on the cross to pay for my sins, was buried and rose from the grave, is alive forevermore and is Truly God and Saviour, MY God and Saviour and I believe in Him.
And the good news is anyone who puts their faith and trust wholely in Jesus, the same shall be saved. Jesus is the Living Word of God and the bible (particularly the KJV but ppl are free to read what they want) is the Written Word of God, and the bible says believe in Jesus and be saved. Yes!

 

[Imalive]

A Look at Ephesians 1:4-5
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.” NASV

Some key words to pick out from this passage and ideas

Vs.4- “He chose” eklegomai is the transliterated word meaning to pick out, choose, to pick or to choose out for one’s self. He did this it says before the foundation of the world. IN other words, before we could say or do anything to earn it. He did this for the purpose of our being holy and blameless before Him.

Vs.5- The word predestined is mentioned. It is used six times in scripture and his the word proorizo. Most often translated predestined but also determine before and ordain. Used in Acts 4:28, Romans 8:29.30, 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5,11.
Vs.5 He predestined us to adoption as sons- this word adoption as sons is used 5x in Romans 8:15,23, Romans 9:4, Gal 4:5 and Ephesians 1:5.
Vs.5 a key word is “through”. He did this through Jesus Christ. The word through is dia which means the ground or reason by which something is or is not done. He is the reason and the grounds upon which those who are predestined could be chosen.
Vs.5 the kind intention- eudokia most often translated “good pleasure”, will or choice.

So, if God chose us before the foundations of the world then the whole basis on which a person is saved has nothing to do with what we do? Or does it? If God alone predestined a person and we have nothing to do with it then how can a person be sure they were one of the ones who are predestined? What does this imply about evangelistic efforts?

Please remember to share your thoughts in a way that is respectful

He knows everything from the beginning. He knows ppls hearts. He knows who'll be a jerk. John 666.

 

[Imalive]

Btw I dont understand how ppl can think God made ppl He predestined to not accept Him. An enemy of Mine did that.

 

[NewCreation435]

Hi jsimms435
In the OP, your last sentence takes all the fun out of it, but I'll try. :disgonbegood::slap:

Can I take some time to look at the passage in context in the bible and reply afterward?

I have some thoughts, but I'm guessing this may be one of those questions that we never seem to get everybody to agree on.

(Keep in mind, I have T-shirt that says, 'Let's assume I'm right, it'll save time') lol

I still owe popsthebuilder a reply in another thread, (sorry pops, I will try to) and it runs a similar course...
Grace alone. Faith alone. Faith apart from works. Faith without works, etc.

God made salvation as easy as He possibly could for us.
Simple child-like faith in Jesus.

We've been the ones complicating it for centuries...partly because of our stubborness and our fallen nature, but alot of times because God is so awesome, salvation including life beyond the grave, the meaning of life overall...and love, is so amazing, it overwhelms us,

and even though we hunger for it so, we have a hard time understanding and accepting that something so profound and complex and beautiful could be so free and easy to receive.

But....just to get the complication ball rolling...I dont think the predestination being talked about here is a simple statement saying "God picked certain ppl to be saved and others not to be". I dont think 'who gets saved or how?' is really the main point Paul is trying to make to the Ephesians.

I think Ive said it elsewhere, this great little letter should really be taken as a whole, imo. I think taking certain verses out to dissect their meaning in isolation or by pairing them with other verses from other letters here and there detract from it a bit.
But Im not criticizing the OP, its an interesting discussion.

Again, just my opinion, if it cant be taken as a whole, at least take it full passage by full passage at a time.
In this case, verses ~3 to14~ (15 starts with a 'wherefore', indicating we should read the preceeding passage to get the whole point in context.) Verses 3-14.

Then, it might lead to the answer of not only the WHO or HOW of predestination, but to the greater answer of WHY, which I believe is found in verse 6, 10, 12, and 17-20.

But again, I find it hard to just read a verse or two of this epistle...I start it and often find I cant stop, or at least the first 3 chapters together.

Thanks jsimms435 for allowing me to toss my opinion into this.

Please do look at the related passages. That is why I put them there.

 

[NewCreation435]

God chose those whom he would "pluck" out of rebellion before the world began. There is no need to predestine humanity to hell. Humans own sin did that for them. The wages of sin is universal. All humanity is judged according to God's law and found guilty. The predestination is only for those whom God chose to write down in the Lambs book of Life as the ones He would adopt.
This presentation of God's Sovereign choosing starts in Genesis 1 and continues to Revelation 22. What Paul shares in Ephesians 1 is not some isolated idea that is foreign to the rest of scripture. No, it is a clear expression of what God has always done. God has always been a gracious God who chooses to spare a remnant as His own expression of kindness to an undeserving creation whom He made in His image.

So, the last part of my post asks how does that affect evangelism? Because from what I have heard from others if you truly believe that the saved will be saved no matter what then you won't try hard to do evangelism because the saved will be saved no matter what you do. LIkewise, the lost are lost and there is no saving them. In a sense, they were doomed from the very beginning. Which is kinda sad to think about.

 

[Josiah]

.


For Lutherans, "Predestination" (we call it "The Mystery of Election") is pure Gospel.....


The Mystery of Election...



Definitions


MONERGISM. Lutherans and Calvinists both are monergists. This is the affirmation that justification (narrow) is God's miracle and gift. We believe that Jesus IS THE Savior, which means it's Jesus that saves, Jesus does it, if it has to do with salvation Jesus' got it. Thus is it not a matter of how many "hoops" we gotta jump through and how well we do it - so that we create, earn, merit and deserve salvation (and thus Jesus is not the Savior).

JUSTIFICATION. Lutherans and Calvinists agree here, too. Justification is essentially what "Evangelicals" mean by "Born again." It means a changed relationship with God and the forgiveness of our sin. We hold to the Protestant view of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (as one inseparable, united view): John 3:16, "For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia) that He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) that whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) will not parish but has everlasting life (justification). It's because of the unconditional love and mercy of God, which gave to us the God/man Jesus who IS the Savior in His life, death and resurrection, which we apprehend via the divine gift of faith (trust/reliance). Alone. All the divine miracle of God, the divine GIFT of God.

ELECTION The Gospel that God loved us, was merciful to us, and chose us as His own before we did a thing, before we were even born (or even conceived). It flows from a firm embrace of monergism. It is NOT to be confused (at all) with the Greek philosophy of "fate" nor is it to be applied anywhere except, solely, in justification (narrow). It is also not to be confused with foreknowledge (the affirmation that God knows all - even beforehand) for it's not simply that God KNOWS who will justified but that God WORKS this miracle and gift and thus they will be justified. They aren't justified because God knew they would be, God knows they will be because He has chosen to perform his miracle and grant this pure gift. For Lutherans, this is not law and should not be twisted upside down and inside out to convert Gospel into Law, that is to say that God "gets off" on seeing billions fry forever in hell and thus chooses some before time to glory Him by suffering the eternal flames of hell. Election is Gospel, always meant to comfort and assure - never to terrorize. Lutherans do not claim to know why some are not justified/saved - but we do NOT believe it is because God 'gets off' on frying people and seeing them suffer. This is the GOSPEL ('good news') that this Sola Gratia in view of Solus Christus has always been (and will always be) directed to me. Not because self has earned it but because God extends it. Yes, there is mystery here.... but it's wonderful if we embrace this as it is presented: as Gospel to comfort CHRISTIANS.




A Hopefully Helpful ILLUSTRATION-


Next February, God willing, my wife and I will be joined by a son. So far, I've only seen him in admittedly hard to distinguish photos of him still in the womb - but that's all I know about him (oh, he is a boy!). We chose to not to any of the texts of possible birth issues (doesn't matter, we aren't going to abort him). We don't know if he'll be handsome or ugly, smart or dumb, good or bad. And so far, all he's done is cost a lot of money, kicked his mother a lot, and made her physically ill (she's better now, however). He hasn't done any good work to merit the life he obviously has (he does all kinds of gymnastics in there; I can now feel it).

And we are already "nesting" (as my wife puts it). We bought a new car (a Honda Pilot SUV), repainted the nursery and already have it all decorated, we have the car seat and rocker and dresser/changing table and LOTS of other things already in the nursery and ready to go (although it's still some months before his scheduled entrance). And there's LOTS of clothes and other things - even before the 3 upcoming baby showers - some from us, most from the two sets of soon-to-be grandparents (a first grandchild for them both). We've both arranged for leave with our employers

And we already LOVE that little boy to pieces. We pray for him constantly (together and separately). My wife is already singing to him (including "Jesus songs"). I suspect only the parents out there know what I'm talking about.... Crazy, absolutely crazy, how much you can be in love (and all that means) with one you've never seen and has done absolutely nothing whatsoever to earn all this (quite the opposite - he's cost us a lot).

And years from now.... perhaps because of the brokenness of this world and of sin..... he may wander to a place.... and wonder about Mom and Dad..... wonder about our love and dedication to him.... wonder if our love has disappeared because he isn't earning it..... and we can remind him of this time when all he did was kick his mother, make her sick and cost us a bunch of time, effort and money - and we loved him: more than we can convey, more than we can understand.... not because of what he did but because of who he is: our son, our heart.

.... THAT is essentially the "Mystery of Election" from the Lutheran perspective....




Some Scriptures -

Ephesians 1:3-11

Romans 8:28-30

Romans 8:33

Romans 9:15-16

1 Thessalonians 1:4

2 Thessalonians 2:13

Psalm 65:4


OBVIOUSLY there is much mystery here, but Lutherans prefer to leave mystery as mystery... and to leave gospel as gospel.



Links for more information -
A more formal and confessional look from a Lutheran seminary professor of Theology: http://www.issuesetcarchive.org/issues_site/resource/archives/scaer2.htm
Calvinist Predestination vs. Lutheran Predestination http://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2013/10/calvinist-predestination-vs-lutheran-predestination/




Soli DEO Gloria!


- Josiah





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[MennoSota]

So, the last part of my post asks how does that affect evangelism? Because from what I have heard from others if you truly believe that the saved will be saved no matter what then you won't try hard to do evangelism because the saved will be saved no matter what you do. LIkewise, the lost are lost and there is no saving them. In a sense, they were doomed from the very beginning. Which is kinda sad to think about.

Person's who would say that, fail to read the scripture and jump to a conclusion.
God commands us to go, make disciples, baptize and teach. We are given the role of Ambassadors. We are commissioned to reach out to every tongue and tribe. We are to be obedient.
God could do all the work himself, but he has ordained the work of evangelism to his saints. We have a task to do. There are people, chosen of God, who need to hear. God commissions me to go.
The story of the rich man who gives money to his servants and then leaves may be helpful. Recall how the two end up doubling their earnings for the master while the one hides the money. Our task is to use what God gives us to grow the kingdom by being ambassadors.
What is different about knowing God chooses and adopts is that the burden of changing a person's mind and convincing them to accept God is not on me. That is God's role. In Ephesians 2, God says that He takes dead men and makes them alive in Christ. I have no power to raise the dead. That job is God's. I can only preach to the dead and hope that God raises some to new life.
A story from my past is helpful. Recall, I grew up in a free-will church environment (Mennonite). When I was 15 my best friend died from cancer. He was not Mennonite and had no church background. I had shared my faith, but there was no commitment from him. No repentance. No sign of being made alive in Christ. He died and I consider he may have died in his trespasses and sins.
This devastated me. I blamed myself for his eternal damnation. I should have been a better testimony. I should have shared more. I should have...
I went into severe depression, considering myself to be wretched beyond forgiveness for my failure to save my best friend. How could God ever forgive such a worthless servant as me. I had 4 years of depression where I fought the demon of suicide and started to wonder if Christianity was any different than any other religion. I stayed in church, but I also read other books of other religions alongside the Bible. It was in reading that I started noticing that God was sovereign and I was not responsible for another person's salvation. I read through the entire book of Hebrews and understood the theme that Jesus is greater than all things. I saw that Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith. I saw that I was to bring a sacrifice of praise into the house of God.
I then read Jesus words where he said to give him my burden for it was light and easy for him and he would give me rest. I gave him the burden of my friends death and I entrusted his eternal soul to God's will. I read that God does the work of choosing and I do the work of evangelism.
God crushed the demonic guilt trip, which the demon was using to incapacitate my faith. He lifted my burden and sorrows. He gave me freedom to trust Him with all things that come in His ordained will.
I cannot save on person, but, I can be the one who tells them of my Savior. If they listen...awesome. If they don't...then I planted and someone else may water...but God and only God will make a dead seed come to life. That's his task.
Sorry for the long response, but that's my story in a nutshell. I understand both sides of this argument and I know how the Bible gave me freedom from my guilt. I cannot go back to a belief that is not biblical.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You want to see a real flame war? Try getting Lutherans and Reformed to see eye to eye about predestination. We believe that God leads the saved to Glory, but people select damnation for themselves. The Reformed say that God chooses the elect for salvation and the unsaved for damnation. That's called " double predestination."

Catholics think that God sees things differently from human beings so if God sees everything all at once what does it matter? We don't see that way and we are stuck with our way of seeing. We can't really figure out what seeing all of time all at once and being able to shape it is like, it is far beyond our current capability. In short we do not predestine anything and if God does we don't know what it is anyway.

 

[user1234]

Hi MennoSota

Thanks for sharing that story, it must have been really gut-wrenching, and Im glad the Lord gave you more grace to bear and mercy and pulled you out of that despair (I can relate to it sooo much, though for diff reasons, but I know those depths of seeming hopelessness.

And I know if I dwell on the way things and myself were, the enemy can exploit that thinking and pull right me back into it, if only for a temporory time, but yes, depression and sorrow can really throw you into a tailspin). Thank God for His saving grace and His mercies being new every morning.

Im interested in knowing from your perspective now, (and believe me, I dont understand all the catagories and definitions of all the groups and sub-groups, so Im not sure on any given day what box some person or another might put me in)

But for yourself, you said you were once on a 'free-will church environment' ... I dont know what that really means ... Is that like charismatic, like free-will worship environment?
Or free to believe different things about who God is?
Or is that what some ppl argue about saying there are ppl claiming to save themselves and Jesus isnt their Saviour, self is. (Ive never understood that one.)

Or is it something else? (I think I said before, I may have had Mennonites as some ancestors were PA Dutch, but I dont know the religion much, except I thought they were like Amish.
I read a bit more of it recently.)

But my question is, now that you left the free-will church and joined a different one, do you think being in this other church would have helped you with your friend? IOW, do you think there might have been a different outcome (and of course, we dont know it, Id like to think your friend got saved, and maybe the word you planted, (God planted thru you) had effect before he drew his last breath, Gods grace and mercy and love is abundant, abounding.)

Im just trying to understand, unless your church was teaching a false gospel, like works-righteousness, all these things YOU have TO DO, in order to obtain salvation, and even then there's still have no assurance, (there are denominations, cults and offshoots, big and small, that teach those things), what was the error that you saw in that church that might have been a stumbling block, if any, to your friend.

(And I do share in your hurt over that, .... excuse my language, but, sometimes it really really sucks living in a fallen world, but I confess I added my share of fallenness and hurt to it, and that really grieves me sometimes, I know that feeling of wanting to kill yourself, when I think of the wretchedness of my own heart.)

 

[Josiah]

Catholics think that God sees things differently from human beings so if God sees everything all at once what does it matter? We don't see that way and we are stuck with our way of seeing. We can't really figure out what seeing all of time all at once and being able to shape it is like, it is far beyond our current capability. In short we do not predestine anything and if God does we don't know what it is anyway.

My readings and conversations with Catholic teachers suggests the the RCC essentially agrees with the Lutheran position - pointing to the Council of Orange. Catholic teachers largely agree with Theodora Beza (and thus Calvin) in terms of "positive election" but (agreeing with Orange) insist that Beza (and Calvin) was too influenced by Greek philosophy and went too far (as Lutherans also believe). http://www.crivoice.org/creedorange.html


I agree that many Catholics have abandoned any thought of "Election" as they have wandered into semi-Pelagianism (which the Councils of Orange condemned). But it is notable that this is NOT AT ALL an issue between Lutherans and Catholics in the Reformation, they both were largely in agreement in what Lutherans call "The Mystery of Election" and later, both disagreed with the uber-Calvinist view.



- Josiah




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

My readings and conversations with Catholic teachers suggests the the RCC essentially agrees with the Lutheran position - pointing to the Council of Orange. Catholic teachers largely agree with Theodora Beza (and thus Calvin) in terms of "positive election" but (agreeing with Orange) insist that Beza (and Calvin) was too influenced by Greek philosophy and went too far (as Lutherans also believe). http://www.crivoice.org/creedorange.html


I agree that many Catholics have abandoned any thought of "Election" as they have wandered into semi-Pelagianism (which the Councils of Orange condemned). But it is notable that this is NOT AT ALL an issue between Lutherans and Catholics in the Reformation, they both were largely in agreement in what Lutherans call "The Mystery of Election" and later, both disagreed with the uber-Calvinist view.

I have no idea what Lutherans teach on the matter. Do all Lutherans teach the same thing? I get the impression that there are differences between "confessional" and other Lutherans.

Catholic theologians write all sorts of things and they speculate about all sorts of things but their writings and speculations are not necessarily what the Catholic Church teaches.