Okay, let's talk about predestination

[user1234]

No, God doesn't give it away.
God chooses exactly to whom He displays His grace.
His reason for choosing someone is a mystery because all humanity is equally sinful and fallen. God is Sovereign. He does what He chooses. He makes the laws. He chooses whom He will pardon as He wills.
It is our nature to demand that God explain His choices. He has no reason to explain Himself. He is God is all the reason that is needed.

You said God is not OBLIGATED to give grace. I agreed, He's not OBLIGATED, but He does anyway. (Not bc He's obligated, but bc He chooses to) He's a good good Father. I dont know why you turned it to say God doesnt give it away or that I was somehow demanding that God explains His choices.
I neither said nor even implied such a thing.
I was merely stating the fact that God is under No Obligation to give His grace to us, but He does so anyway. He CHOSE to give us Jesus ... Not by OBLIGATION, but BY HIS LOVE.

 

[NewCreation435]

You said God is not OBLIGATED to give grace. I agreed, He's not OBLIGATED, but He does anyway. (Not bc He's obligated, but bc He chooses to) He's a good good Father. I dont know why you turned it to say God doesnt give it away or that I was somehow demanding that God explains His choices.
I neither said nor even implied such a thing.
I was merely stating the fact that God is under No Obligation to give His grace to us, but He does so anyway. He CHOSE to give us Jesus ... Not by OBLIGATION, but BY HIS LOVE.

The very definition of grace is "unmerited favor". By definition it is unearned.

 

[MennoSota]

You said God is not OBLIGATED to give grace. I agreed, He's not OBLIGATED, but He does anyway. (Not bc He's obligated, but bc He chooses to) He's a good good Father. I dont know why you turned it to say God doesnt give it away or that I was somehow demanding that God explains His choices.
I neither said nor even implied such a thing.
I was merely stating the fact that God is under No Obligation to give His grace to us, but He does so anyway. He CHOSE to give us Jesus ... Not by OBLIGATION, but BY HIS LOVE.

Perhaps I misunderstood you.
When you said God gives it away, I took it as saying that God gives his gift of grace in an unlimited way.
God does not provide unlimited grace. This is because Jesus atoning work and payment for sin is limited only to those whom Jesus death effectually pardons. That being the chosen, elect, persons whom God ordains to save.

 

[user1234]

The very definition of grace is "unmerited favor". By definition it is unearned.

Yes, I know! What is it that I'm writing that is all the sudden being misunderstood as if Im one of the ones here who believes salvation is earned or our works OF ANY KIND has anything to do with being saved?
Has everyone gone nuts? :spinningsmilie: Just kidding jsimms435 . But really, I've gone so far as to put osas•sofa in my sig (and cant believe no one has blasted me for it yet) Yes, grace is a gift, salvation is a gift. Not earned, not merited, not obligated, not deserved.

Perhaps I misunderstood you.
When you said God gives it away, I took it as saying that God gives his gift of grace in an unlimited way.
God does not provide unlimited grace. This is because Jesus atoning work and payment for sin is limited only to those whom Jesus death effectually pardons. That being the chosen, elect, persons whom God ordains to save.

No problem, I was merely saying (in agreement with you) that God is not OBLIGATED to give us His grace. He gives us His grace because He's good and He loves us.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

"Predestined" is mentioned once in the Catechism of the Catholic Church Compendium in answer 67.

It's a bit of a surprise that's the only mention. Is the subject somehow addressed another way, just not as "predestination" (the term)?

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's a bit of a surprise that's the only mention. Is the subject somehow addressed another way, just not as "predestination" (the term)?

Grace and calling and election are all addressed but the specifics of John Calvin's ideas of predestination are not a part of Catholic faith - some Catholic theologians have discussed it at length and arrive at various views but the Church has (wisely I think) kept a distance from the theological speculations regarding predestination as a mystery revealed but not explained. "God knows but I do not" is a good answer to the matter.

 

[user1234]

Perhaps I misunderstood you.
When you said God gives it away, I took it as saying that God gives his gift of grace in an unlimited way.
God does not provide unlimited grace. This is because Jesus atoning work and payment for sin is limited only to those whom Jesus death effectually pardons. That being the chosen, elect, persons whom God ordains to save.

Ahhh, it took reading two diff posts, but I think I saw the misunderstanding.

I had said God is not obligated, but He gives it anyway.
And you thought I said God gives it away.

I even misread my own post once.
But I was saying He gives it (His grace) ANYWAY, (despite not being obligated)
Not AWAY (as in, without purpose).

 

[Imalive]

Perhaps I misunderstood you.
When you said God gives it away, I took it as saying that God gives his gift of grace in an unlimited way.
God does not provide unlimited grace. This is because Jesus atoning work and payment for sin is limited only to those whom Jesus death effectually pardons. That being the chosen, elect, persons whom God ordains to save.

The Bible teaches universal atonement. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” 2nd Corinthians 5:15, “And that he died for all...” We read in 1st Timothy 1:15, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” The Word of God proclaims that Christ came to save sinners, not just certain sinners.

Listen to the plain teaching of 2nd peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” This Scripture clearly reveals that it is possible for ALL men to repent. God is NOT willing for any to perish. If Calvinism is correct, then how can you reconcile God's desire for all men to repent if He only predestinates certain of them to salvation? Calvinism makes no sense at all.

Titus 2:11 clearly teaches, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."

John 3:16 proclaims that God loved the WORLD enough to send His only begotten Son to pay for our sins.

Romans 10:13 plainly teaches, "For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

 

[NewCreation435]

The Bible teaches universal atonement. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” 2nd Corinthians 5:15, “And that he died for all...” We read in 1st Timothy 1:15, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” The Word of God proclaims that Christ came to save sinners, not just certain sinners.

Listen to the plain teaching of 2nd peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” This Scripture clearly reveals that it is possible for ALL men to repent. God is NOT willing for any to perish. If Calvinism is correct, then how can you reconcile God's desire for all men to repent if He only predestinates certain of them to salvation? Calvinism makes no sense at all.

Titus 2:11 clearly teaches, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."

John 3:16 proclaims that God loved the WORLD enough to send His only begotten Son to pay for our sins.

Romans 10:13 plainly teaches, "For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

No, it does not teach universal atonement. Read Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus said that when he comes in his glory he will separate them from one another, the sheep on the right and the goats on the left. One has as its end result eternal glory and one eternal punishment vs.46
Jesus actually spoke quite a lot about hell to warn people.

 

[MennoSota]

The Bible teaches universal atonement. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” 2nd Corinthians 5:15, “And that he died for all...” We read in 1st Timothy 1:15, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” The Word of God proclaims that Christ came to save sinners, not just certain sinners.

Listen to the plain teaching of 2nd peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” This Scripture clearly reveals that it is possible for ALL men to repent. God is NOT willing for any to perish. If Calvinism is correct, then how can you reconcile God's desire for all men to repent if He only predestinates certain of them to salvation? Calvinism makes no sense at all.

Titus 2:11 clearly teaches, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."

John 3:16 proclaims that God loved the WORLD enough to send His only begotten Son to pay for our sins.

Romans 10:13 plainly teaches, "For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Once again you wrongly take the word "all" and make it universal.
When I address my friends and say, "You all are invited to my place" am I speaking of the entire world or just all of my friends?
The Bible clarifies the "all" as being all those whom God has chosen. Any suggestion otherwise is a heretical teaching that preaches universal salvation for all. Either you make God weak or you make God a liar with that claim. Why? Because it is very clear that not all humans are saved. Many go to hell.
Thus, limited atonement must be the teaching of scripture.
However, to give you an out...there is a teaching that God's atonement is potentially for all humans, but effectually only for the elect. It's a philosophical play on God's atoning work. I prefer the straight up teaching that God's atonement is only for the elect, which only God knows.

 

[Imalive]

Once again you wrongly take the word "all" and make it universal.
When I address my friends and say, "You all are invited to my place" am I speaking of the entire world or just all of my friends?
The Bible clarifies the "all" as being all those whom God has chosen. Any suggestion otherwise is a heretical teaching that preaches universal salvation for all. Either you make God weak or you make God a liar with that claim. Why? Because it is very clear that not all humans are saved. Many go to hell.
Thus, limited atonement must be the teaching of scripture.
However, to give you an out...there is a teaching that God's atonement is potentially for all humans, but effectually only for the elect. It's a philosophical play on God's atoning work. I prefer the straight up teaching that God's atonement is only for the elect, which only God knows.

You can deny Him or accept Him. Choose life. It's already in the O.T. Grace is for all. He doesn't cast anyone out who comes to Him. We have to pray for all man cause God wants everyone saved. 1 Timothy.
Election has nothing to do with salvation.

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

http://www.douglashamp.com/why-god-...vation-and-commonly-is-a-reference-to-israel/

Weak? Because the devil chooses to rebel and because ppl choose they don't want Him? So strong would be: I want all this to happen, I want ppl and angels to hate Me? Thats strong yes, but immoral. Then God is the creator of evil. Lots of ex calvinist atheists now who say God is a monster. That Jew was right. Calvin made a monster from God.

 

[MennoSota]

You can deny Him or accept Him. Choose life. It's already in the O.T. Grace is for all. He doesn't cast anyone out who comes to Him. We have to pray for all man cause God wants everyone saved. 1 Timothy.
Election has nothing to do with salvation.

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

http://www.douglashamp.com/why-god-...vation-and-commonly-is-a-reference-to-israel/

Weak? Because the devil chooses to rebel and because ppl choose they don't want Him? So strong would be: I want all this to happen, I want ppl and angels to hate Me? Thats strong yes, but immoral. Then God is the creator of evil. Lots of ex calvinist atheists now who say God is a monster. That Jew was right. Calvin made a monster from God.

You misread Joshua 29. It's not about being Redeemed.
The OT oozes with God choosing an elect people with no reason other than...He can. Look at how utterly corrupt Jacob and his children are. They deserved nothing, yet God chose them anyway. Even look at Abraham. He lied about his wife...twice...in order to save his own skin. No, there is nothing in the OT that speaks of men choosing God. It is and has always been the Sovereign God choosing to redeem whom he wills and choosing to let the judgment of sin fall on everyone else.

If God wants all humans saved and that will does not happen...what does that make God? Answer: It either makes God a liar or a weak creator. Which one do you choose?
However, God does want all the elect to be saved and he absolutely makes it happen. Not one whom the Father gives Jesus are ever lost.

God leaves satan, fallen angels and rebel humans to their just judgment. He is not obligated to redeem anyone. That he chooses to redeem rebels is an act of amazing grace. Something that chosen humans receive, but are not able to accomplish by their own choice.

 

[Imalive]

You misread Joshua 29. It's not about being Redeemed.
The OT oozes with God choosing an elect people with no reason other than...He can. Look at how utterly corrupt Jacob and his children are. They deserved nothing, yet God chose them anyway. Even look at Abraham. He lied about his wife...twice...in order to save his own skin. No, there is nothing in the OT that speaks of men choosing God. It is and has always been the Sovereign God choosing to redeem whom he wills and choosing to let the judgment of sin fall on everyone else.

If God wants all humans saved and that will does not happen...what does that make God? Answer: It either makes God a liar or a weak creator. Which one do you choose?
However, God does want all the elect to be saved and he absolutely makes it happen. Not one whom the Father gives Jesus are ever lost.

God leaves satan, fallen angels and rebel humans to their just judgment. He is not obligated to redeem anyone. That he chooses to redeem rebels is an act of amazing grace. Something that chosen humans receive, but are not able to accomplish by their own choice.

If?

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

It makes Him good and good overcomes evil.

 

[MennoSota]

If?

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

It makes Him good and good overcomes evil.

Let's take a look at the context.
Paul tells his audience to pray for all peoples. He then clarifies a specific social group...kings and all who are in authority. Paul wants the readers to know that God may choose from any social status and any background. Paul wants the readers to pray that God might save kings and leaders just like God saved them. Paul says that these prayers are a good thing because God desires people from all areas of society. God is not a racist. God is not just the God of the peasantry. God is the God of all social groups and will choose from any group of society as He wills. So...pray for the leaders just as you pray for your families and neighbors, that they might be saved. God will reach into all groups and save some as He wills.
The passage is not teaching universal atonement at all.
God does not find pleasure in sending people to hell, but God is a holy God and He justly sends people to hell because they have broken His laws. It would be an unjust Judge who did not declare guilt on a lawbreaker. God is not unjust. God condemns us for our lawbreaking. God also chooses to pardon whom He wills because Jesus has taken the judgment for the elect.
Why just some? God doesn't tell us. We are all equally guilty. God does so because, as the Sovereign King, He can. No reasons given. Unmerited favor by God's own choising. Thus we work out this salvation (unmerited favor) with out arrogance, but instead with a sense of fear and trembling at God’s act of mercy and grace. We stand in complete and utter awe at the unmerited favor God has given to those whom He chooses...from all walks of life.

 

[Lamb]

No, it does not teach universal atonement. Read Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus said that when he comes in his glory he will separate them from one another, the sheep on the right and the goats on the left. One has as its end result eternal glory and one eternal punishment vs.46
Jesus actually spoke quite a lot about hell to warn people.

Universal atonement is not the same thing as universalism which says that all are saved.

 

[Josiah]

Universal atonement is not the same thing as universalism which says that all are saved.

Yup.

Universal atonement (accepted by every denomination known to me accept for very conservative Calvinists ones) is that God loves all and that Jesus died for the sins of all. It embraces the Sola Gratia and Solus Christus aspects.

Universalism is the view (accepted by the Unitarian Universalist denomination and also by some liberals scattered here and there) denies the Sola Fide aspect, insisting that all are saves REGARDLESS of their faith/trust/reliance so that all humans are justified.

Predestination (either in the uber-Calvinist/TULIP sense or in the Greek Philosphy sense) or Election has nothing to do with either and to my knowledge all that accept Predestination/Election reject universalism (after all, universalism teaches that all are justified REGARDLESS of anything)

 

[MennoSota]

Universal atonement is not the same thing as universalism which says that all are saved.

Universal atonement places the effort of salvation or no salvation upon the human. It is human-centered, making God subject under the will of man.
Go read my thread on the Arminian creed, because that is the essence of universal atonement/unlimited atonement.

 

[MennoSota]

A Particular Baptist will try to merge unlimited atonement and limited atonement by stating that Jesus atonement had the potential to save all humanity (unlimited), but it only effectually saves the elect (limited).

 

[user1234]

A Particular Baptist will try to merge unlimited atonement and limited atonement by stating that Jesus atonement had the potential to save all humanity (unlimited), but it only effectually saves the elect (limited).

This may sound arrogant but I dont mean it to be, but I'm guessing this has been debated for hundreds of years with no definitive answer, and Im starting to wonder how important it really is to have the exact right answer, or will be, in the bigger scheme of things.

 

[MennoSota]

This may sound arrogant but I dont mean it to be, but I'm guessing this has been debated for hundreds of years with no definitive answer, and Im starting to wonder how important it really is to have the exact right answer, or will be, in the bigger scheme of things.

It's importance is not in regard to salvation, but it instead it is in regard to Lordship. It is important in relation to whose will is greater, yours or God's.
Josiah has touched on synergism where the thought is that salvation is a dual action of man and God. Essentially humans are equal rulers with God.
This is a very subtle power grab by humans as a means of having control over their lives. God is not so much Lord as He is the top level consultant for the team.