Name those sins Christ didn't die for

[psalms 91]

Work out. Not work for your salvation. Only man can be so arrogant enough to think that he could do the job better than Christ.

Staying faithful and trusting in the Savior is working out our salvation.

Work out yes. Also it says to be obedient and some of what we are to be obedient to involves works. Feed the hungry, help the poor, the widow.

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #183 on Page 19, with reference to my Post #174 on Page 18 and Post #182 on Page 19, Lämmchen said:

Pedrito, I would be willing to discuss with you if you ask one question at a time and ask it as clearly as you can. I find your wording to be confusing and I'm not sure what direction your questions are going in. You also have this tendency to want to lead in with a question and hint at another topic and I don't follow tangents. I prefer to stick to the topic here.

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In response to:

You also have this tendency to want to lead in with a question and hint at another topic and I don't follow tangents. I prefer to stick to the topic here.

may I point out that it was Lämmchen who invoked Matthew 25:41,46 in support of her statement:

The Law states that the sinful deserve eternal punishment

But in the passage from which those two verses were extracted, Matthew 25:31-46 (quoted in my two posts mentioned above), there is no mention of repentance, nor of faith, nor even of the Law. Jesus divides people into two camps – those to be blessed, and those to be cursed – based on works alone – works specifically defined by Jesus then and there.

I simply asked for clarification regarding the validity of the Scripture that Lämmchen had extracted from that passage, as support for her statement.

To prompt precision in that clarification, I asked six highly specific, highly relevant, and clearly related questions. I felt the need to do that because there is an abundance of generalisation and imprecision to be found in the posts in this forum (and other “Christian” forums that I have happened to look at) – generalisation and imprecision which are often used to avoid facing inconvenient Scripture, and to avoid owning up to the questionable use of Scripture.

So it was Lämmchen who started the “tangent”, if it was one. I simply asked for clarification regarding her extraction of two verses from a passage of Scripture which appears to say something totally different from the proposition she was attempting to support.


Continued ...

 

[Pedrito]

... Continued

In response to Lämmchen's:

I would be willing to discuss with you if you ask one question at a time

I simply point out that it saved space to ask the six related questions together, rather than reproduce the passage in six posts to ask one question in each.

Also, because they were related, it made sense to have them presented together.

If Lämmchen (or anyone else) finds it difficult to address six related questions about the same Scripture passage at the one time, then I suggest that that person simply answer one question at a time, in six posts containing one answer each.

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And as for:

...and ask it as clearly as you can. I find your wording to be confusing and I'm not sure what direction your questions are going in.

I believe that each of my six questions was stated very clearly, and that their meaning is also clear.

I do perceive however, that those questions may tend to make people uncomfortable, because:
- The answers that are obvious could be perceived as threatening to treasured church doctrine;
- The answers that may not be obvious, may require thinking that is outside the normal constraints that church-goers are taught to confine themselves to.

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Each question is clear.

For instance, question 1 asks:

Is not the “Evangelical” Gospel as normally expressed, incompatible with those words from the mouth of Jesus?

A simple “yes or no style” answer is all that is required, maybe with a little expansion.

To make it easy for people, I will answer that question for them.

The answer is: Yes, the “Evangelical” Gospel as normally expressed, is definitely and totally incompatible with those words from the mouth of Jesus.

(In fact, is not Jesus' proclamation also incompatible with the teachings of the ritualistic churches?)

There. Wasn't that easy. The answer is simple and obvious. The question is, is that answer "acceptable"?

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Now, who will be willing to address questions 2 to 6, and either provide a sensible answer for each question, or for each question for which they have no answer, simply admit it?

Silence (as it were) will indicate without question, an inability to provide answers, coupled with an unwillingness to “fess up”.

 

[Lamb]

Define what you mean by "Evangelical" gospel since I see a lot of "gospel" that is considered LAW!

 

[Lamb]

Work out yes. Also it says to be obedient and some of what we are to be obedient to involves works. Feed the hungry, help the poor, the widow.

Feeding the hungry and helping he poor and widows will not get you to heaven, bill. Does your pastor teach you that it does? Does he not teach you that Jesus is the way to heaven?

 

[Lamb]

Just jumping in here, but I think I heard someone say that works compliment salvation?

They do not contribute to salvation though.

I'm not sure why this thread has turned into a works righteousness thread instead of naming those sins Christi didn't die for?

 

[psalms 91]

They do not contribute to salvation though.

I'm not sure why this thread has turned into a works righteousness thread instead of naming those sins Christi didn't die for?

Maybe because there are none so the thread would die after the first post I think

 

[visionary]

Feeding the hungry and helping he poor and widows will not get you to heaven, bill. Does your pastor teach you that it does? Does he not teach you that Jesus is the way to heaven?

Yeshua seemed to think that it was a sure sign of His spirit working within them.

Matthew 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,...

It is a very much a part of living the believer's life.

Isaiah 58:10 If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday.

James 2:14-18 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Proverbs 28:27 Whoever gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.

Luke 3:11 And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

1 John 3:17-18 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

Proverbs 14:31 Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Matthew 25:37-40 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Proverbs 31:20 She opens her hand to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy.

Proverbs 22:9 Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor.

And on and on goes the list.... You may say that it will not get you in, but I say it will make the difference as to whether you get to stay in.

 

[Cassia]

I think there's as many positions in eternity as there are members of the body. Jesus said that He held no right to where those positions are for the sons of thunder Mark 10:40.

But the rewards and curses are from the judgement of Christ so obviously it's not talking about eternity. Revelation 20:4-6

 

[Cassia]

On topic to sin(s) this is an exerpt from the last link I gave a few posts back.............

Unconfessed sin relates to fellowship in this life, not one’s relationship or standing with God. Unconfessed sin stands as a barrier to fellowship with the Lord and His control over one’s life. As Amos 3:3 says, “can two walk together unless they be agreed?” Obviously the answer is no. Confession means we agree with God concerning our sin and want to get back under God’s control. “Daily forgiveness of those who are within the family of God is distinguished from judicial and positional forgiveness which was applied forensically to all of a person’s sins the moment he believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.”8 We need to distinguish between fellowship forgiveness and legal or forensic forgiveness that justifies us and gives us a standing before God through Christ.

Key Scriptures: Hebrews 12:5 and 1 Corinthians 11:28-32. These passages:

Explain the nature of God’s judgment of believers in this life. It is discipline designed to train and bring believers back to a walk with God.
They teach us the basic cause of discipline is failure to examine and confess known sins because that hinders our fellowship with God.
“Condemned along with the world” in 1 Corinthians 11:32 most likely refers to the judgment of Rom. 1:24f, moral degeneration and the gradual breakdown in the moral fiber of men when they turn away from God. The same thing happens in the life of believers, but God brings discipline to stop the process.
(2) God does not judge us for our sin in the sense of making us pay the penalty for that sin.

Scripture teaches that Christ’s death was all-sufficient, completely satisfying God’s wrath toward sin in the believer. The question of sin in regard to God’s justice has been forever satisfied in the mind of God by the all-sufficient sacrifice of His Son. The penalty for the believer’s sins has been fully paid for by Christ, the believer’s substitute. The Christian has been in court, condemned, sentenced, and executed in his substitute, Jesus Christ. God cannot exact payment for sins twice since payment has been fully and forever paid. The believer is seen by the Father as clothed in the righteousness of Christ. God can therefore find no cause for accusing the Christian judicially any more than He can find cause for accusing Jesus Christ. Therefore, at the judgment seat of Christ forensic punishment will not be meted out for the believer’s sins.9

Rather, God disciplines us as a father disciplines his sons to bring us back into fellowship that we might be conformed to His Son. It is a family matter.

 

[Cassia]

Yeshua seemed to think that it was a sure sign of His spirit working within them.

Matthew 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,...

It is a very much a part of living the believer's life.

Isaiah 58:10 If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday.

James 2:14-18 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Proverbs 28:27 Whoever gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.

Luke 3:11 And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

1 John 3:17-18 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

Proverbs 14:31 Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Matthew 25:37-40 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Proverbs 31:20 She opens her hand to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy.

Proverbs 22:9 Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor.

And on and on goes the list.... You may say that it will not get you in, but I say it will make the difference as to whether you get to stay in.

I agree with all but the "whether you get to stay in" part. God's gift of salvation is irreversable. Those things that Jesus removes rewards for would not include salvation itself.

 

[Cassia]

In Post #183 on Page 19, with reference to my Post #174 on Page 18 and Post #182 on Page 19, Lämmchen said:


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In response to:

may I point out that it was Lämmchen who invoked Matthew 25:41,46 in support of her statement:

But in the passage from which those two verses were extracted, Matthew 25:31-46 (quoted in my two posts mentioned above), there is no mention of repentance, nor of faith, nor even of the Law. Jesus divides people into two camps – those to be blessed, and those to be cursed – based on works alone – works specifically defined by Jesus then and there.

I simply asked for clarification regarding the validity of the Scripture that Lämmchen had extracted from that passage, as support for her statement.

To prompt precision in that clarification, I asked six highly specific, highly relevant, and clearly related questions. I felt the need to do that because there is an abundance of generalisation and imprecision to be found in the posts in this forum (and other “Christian” forums that I have happened to look at) – generalisation and imprecision which are often used to avoid facing inconvenient Scripture, and to avoid owning up to the questionable use of Scripture.

So it was Lämmchen who started the “tangent”, if it was one. I simply asked for clarification regarding her extraction of two verses from a passage of Scripture which appears to say something totally different from the proposition she was attempting to support.


Continued ...

could you perhaps provide links to the posts because I have different settings for page numbers and also maybe start again as to what your point is as I have come in late so am not following the relevance/meaning that your setting forth to the thread?

 

[psalms 91]

Feeding the hungry and helping he poor and widows will not get you to heaven, bill. Does your pastor teach you that it does? Does he not teach you that Jesus is the way to heaven?

Why do you think that I dont know this? My problem is that it seems to be ignored that we are commanded to do certain things and our salvation is not once and done it also is progressive if not so then how could we lose it

 

[Lamb]

Yeshua seemed to think that it was a sure sign of His spirit working within them.

Matthew 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,...

It is a very much a part of living the believer's life.

Isaiah 58:10 If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday.

James 2:14-18 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Proverbs 28:27 Whoever gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.

Luke 3:11 And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

1 John 3:17-18 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

Proverbs 14:31 Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Matthew 25:37-40 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Proverbs 31:20 She opens her hand to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy.

Proverbs 22:9 Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor.

And on and on goes the list.... You may say that it will not get you in, but I say it will make the difference as to whether you get to stay in.

A sign, yes. Cause of salvation? No. Christ died so all our sins are forgiven. Even those where we forget to feed the hungry, or help the poor. We don't do those things in order to have salvation. We do those because we are God's children and our neighbors need our love.

 

[pinacled]

A sign, yes. Cause of salvation? No. Christ died so all our sins are forgiven. Even those where we forget to feed the hungry, or help the poor. We don't do those things in order to have salvation. We do those because we are God's children and our neighbors need our love.

I tend to belive our neighbors needs are to be provided. Water, food, clothing, shelter. Though when a person extorts or even passes by his neighbor without A thought. I have seen pride at work in many circumstances.

I have heard we are stewards.

 

[Lamb]

I tend to belive our neighbors needs are to be provided. Water, food, clothing, shelter. Though when a person extorts or even passes by his neighbor without A thought. I have seen pride at work in many circumstances.

I have heard we are stewards.

Yes, our neighbors needs are to be provided. That doesn't contribute to our salvation. Did Christ die for those sins of overlooking our neighbors? Yes.

 

[pinacled]

Yeshua seemed to think that it was a sure sign of His spirit working within them.

Matthew 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,...

It is a very much a part of living the believer's life.

Isaiah 58:10 If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday.

James 2:14-18 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Proverbs 28:27 Whoever gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.

Luke 3:11 And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

1 John 3:17-18 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

Proverbs 14:31 Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Matthew 25:37-40 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Proverbs 31:20 She opens her hand to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy.

Proverbs 22:9 Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor.

And on and on goes the list.... You may say that it will not get you in, but I say it will make the difference as to whether you get to stay in.

Amen
Beautifull post.

 

[Romanos]

could you perhaps provide links to the posts because I have different settings for page numbers and also maybe start again as to what your point is as I have come in late so am not following the relevance/meaning that your setting forth to the thread?

Post #183 - http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...-sins-Christ-didn-t-die-for&p=48867#post48867
Post #174 - http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...-sins-Christ-didn-t-die-for&p=46939#post46939
Post #182 - http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...-sins-Christ-didn-t-die-for&p=48741#post48741
[MENTION=262]Cassia[/MENTION]

 

[Cassia]

And now I have a request for understanding with respect to something I have always found puzzling.

In Post #161, Lämmchen offered:


The references in that offering were extracted from Jesus' broader proclamation in Matthew 25:31-46:


What puzzles me is, Jesus is here talking about salvation related to works – specific works.


1. Is not the “Evangelical” Gospel as normally expressed, incompatible with those words from the mouth of Jesus?

2. With respect to people who consider themselves Evangelical Christians, as well as people who consider themselves and others to be saved because they have been baptised as infants by an acceptable church, etc.: are those people actually in danger if they are not in the habit of giving meat to the hungry, giving drinks to people who are thirsty, opening their houses to strangers, clothing naked people, visiting sick people, and spending time with people who are in prison?


If the Bible is indeed the Inspired Revelation From God to us (and I believe it to be so), then must it not be inherently consistent in the ideas it presents to us, across the “whole counsel of God”?


3. So just what was Jesus conveying to His hearers in that proclamation?

4. And what did His hearers actually understand Him to be telling them at that particular moment?

5. Don't Jesus' words convey the concept of salvation for anyone and everyone who practices the works nominated, irrespective of any identifiable faith status?

6. And if be said that for Christians in our day, Jesus' proclamation relates to the “works” that are the true expression of a person's having the status “saved” (however expressed), then:

• How can those works be identified?
• What can be concluded if such works appear absent?
• What is our responsibility to people who believe they are saved by some recognised mechanism, if such works appear absent in their lives?

Specific wisdom regarding each of the numbered questions above, would be appreciated.

One kid who had been brought up in the church had all the advantages all of their life was walking down the street waiting for traffic lights, obeying all the laws. In the alley behind was another kid that was angry hurt had every disadvantage imaginable. In front of him ran a kitten and it took everything in him not to kick it out of his way. Which one do you think God was more pleased with? Both did works because just living is a work, whether for good or not.

 

[Rens]

Let the rich help the poor. You give people money and they get fat and you can't eat a decent meal for months yourself. Had a bit enough of it. I still give, but I can because my dad gives me. Don't give so much anymore though if they have more food in the fridge than me. Bye! Poor widows live in India and such. I wanted to help one, but they have money enough and don't use it and don't even give your money to that person. If those people who arrange those charity things earn tons a month they shouldn't think I give them a cent. Insane. One guy on cf got a job to help the poor in Africa. He earned 250000 for that. I wanted to give one girl on Facebook directly, but it was a guy and a scammer. Luckily I could get it back.