LAW and GOSPEL

Josiah

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David knew he was saved by God's grace -- NOT by keeping all the commandments perfectly, but rather by what he says at the beginning of the verse; "Consider how I love your precepts ..." It all leads back to God's loving forgiving nature, who sees past out sins and loves us, justifies us because of what His begotten Son has done for us, and picks us up, dusts us off, and says "Go and sin no more" no one accuses you.


Yup. Law cannot save.... it's why we need the Gospel, mercy, forgiveness, unconditional love, THE Savior (there's only one: hint, it ain't the one you see in the mirror).

Both Law and Gospel are real and powerful (if not watered down to nothing) and have a purpose. But it's not the purpose of the Law to save (unless one keeps it - and only One did: Hint: He was born in Bethlehem over 2000 years ago).
 

visionary

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Yup. Law cannot save.... it's why we need the Gospel, mercy, forgiveness, unconditional love, THE Savior (there's only one: hint, it ain't the one you see in the mirror).

Both Law and Gospel are real and powerful (if not watered down to nothing) and have a purpose. But it's not the purpose of the Law to save (unless one keeps it - and only One did: Hint: He was born in Bethlehem over 2000 years ago).
Did the law save Yeshua?
 

Josiah

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Did the law save Yeshua?

No. Jesus (the Incarnate God, the God/Man Inspererable) was never saved from His imperfection, his missing the mark - because He never was imperfect, He never did miss the mark. Jesus is not the Saved... He's the Savior. The Law saves no one.
 

psalms 91

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No. Jesus (the Incarnate God, the God/Man Inspererable) was never saved from His imperfection, his missing the mark - because He never was imperfect, He never did miss the mark. Jesus is not the Saved... He's the Savior. The Law saves no one.
True and the reason was He was obediennt just as wea re called to be
 

Lamb

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visionary

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No. Jesus (the Incarnate God, the God/Man Inspererable) was never saved from His imperfection, his missing the mark - because He never was imperfect, He never did miss the mark. Jesus is not the Saved... He's the Savior. The Law saves no one.
AHhhh... Then you do not know the function of the Law. If it wasn't for the Law, there would be no definition of sin. If it wasn't for the Law, there would be no way that you can declare Yeshua sinless. By abiding in the Law, Yeshua was saved from sin. So yes, the Law saved Yeshua. Just because Yeshua never sinned doesn't mean that the Law was of no use to Him. It was His guiding direction in the life perfect, If there was no Law of God Yeshua would not even known what is sin. Yeshua always stayed safe within the perimeters of Law abiding. Thus He was righteous, Holy, and resurrected as our Savior.
 
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No. Jesus (the Incarnate God, the God/Man Inspererable) was never saved from His imperfection, his missing the mark - because He never was imperfect, He never did miss the mark. Jesus is not the Saved... He's the Savior. The Law saves no one.

He wasn't perfect as a Human, although He was sinless. He was made perfect through suffering.
 

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He wasn't perfect as a Human, although He was sinless. He was made perfect through suffering.

It's not that Jesus was imperfect, but that He completed God's goal that none of us could with His sacrifice on the cross for salvation.
 

psalms 91

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exactly He was perfect in every way
 

Josiah

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From Spurgeon regarding this obscure and difficult verse:

II. CHRIST WAS MADE A PERFECT SAVIOR THROUGH SUFFERING.

He was not made perfect in character by his suffering, for he always was perfect—perfect God, perfect man; but he was made officially perfect, perfect as the captain of our salvation through his sufferings, and that in four ways.

By his sufferings he became perfect as a Savior from having offered a complete expiation for sin. Sin could not have been put away by holiness. The best performance of an unsuffering being could not have removed the guilt of man. Suffering was absolutely necessary, for suffering was the penalty of sin. "In the day thou eatest thereof," said God to Adam, "thou shalt surely die." Die then he must. Nothing short of death could meet the case. Christ must go to the cross; he must suffer there; ay, and he must bow his head and give up the ghost, or else no atonement for sin had been possible. The curse came upon us as the result of sin. "Curseth is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them." Now had Christ been never so perfect, yet had he never suffered he never could have taken our curse. "Cursed is every one that hangeth on the tree," but without the tree, without the cross, Christ had not been our substitute, and all he did could have been of no sort of use to us. Being crucified he became accursed; being crucified he died, and thus he could make perfect expiation for sin. Sin demanded punishment; punishment must consist of loss and of pain; Christ lost everything, even to the stripping of his garment; his glory was taken from him; they made nothing of him; they spat in his face; they bowed the knee, and mocked him with bitter irony. There must be pain too, and he endured it; in his body there were the wounds and the fever which the wounds produced, and in his soul there was an exceeding heaviness even unto death, and an agony which no tongue can tell, for we have no words in which to speak of it. We believe that this agony was commensurate with the agonies of the lost in hell; not the same agony, but an equivalent for it; and remember, not the equivalent for the agony of one, but an equivalent for the hells of all that innumerable host whose sins he bore, condensed into one black draught to be drained in a few hours; the miseries of an eternity without an end, miseries caused by a God infinitely angry because of an awful rebellion, and these miseries multiplied by the millions for whom the man Christ Jesus stood as covenant head. What a draught was that, men and brethren! Well might it stagger even him! And yet he drained that cup, drained it to its utmost dregs not a drop was left. For thee, my soul, no flames of hell; for Christ the Paschal-lamb has been roasted in that fire. For thee, my soul, no torments of the damned, for Christ hath been condemned in thy stead. For thee, my spirit, no desertion of thy God, for He was forsaken of God for thee. 'Tis done, 'tis finished, and by thy sufferings, Jesus, thou hast become perfect as the expiation of thy people's sins. Do, my brethren, remember that your sins are perfectly expiated. Do not let them trouble you as to punishment; the punishment has gone. Sins cannot lie in two places at one time; they were put on Christ, and they cannot be on you. In fact, your sins are not to be found; the scapegoat has gone, and your sins will never be found again. Your sins, if they were searched for, could not be discovered, nor by the piercing eye of God can a single blemish be found in you. So far as the punishment of the law is concerned it is finished, and Christ is a perfect Savior.

Again, if Christ had not suffered he could not have been perfect as a Savior, because he could not have brought in a perfect righteousness. It is not enough to expiate sin. God requires of man perfect obedience. If man would be in heaven he must be perfectly obedient. Christ, as he took away our guilt, has supplied us with a matchless righteousness. His works are our works; his doings are, by imputation, our doings. But a part of obedience is a patient endurance of God's will. Patience is no mean part of the full obedience of a sincere soul. Christ must therefore suffer hunger, and cold, and nakedness throughout life, that he may be capable of the virtue of patience. An obedience even unto death is now the only perfect form of obedience. The man who would keep the law of God perfectly must not start back even at martyrdom. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy strength," would now require death to consummate it. It was not possible for the Master to have made the robe, woven from the top throughout without seam, unless the scarlet thread of crucifixion had run along its edge. But now, my soul, Christ is thy perfect Savior, for he presents thee with a perfect righteousness. There is nothing more to do. Neither my living nor my dying can make my righteousness more complete. No doing, no Iabouring, no denying, no suffering, are needed to finish that which Christ began. "It is finished." Put on thy robe, O Christian; walk ever in it; let it be thy wedding-dress. Angels admire thee; God himself accepts thee; coming into his wedding-feast he sees thee with this garment on, and he asks thee not how thou comest hither, but bids thee sit down and feast for ever, for thou art such as even He can keep company with in his glory.

Yet, thirdly, it was necessary that Christ should suffer to make him a perfect Savior so far as his sympathy goes. After sin is washed away, and righteousness imputed, we yet want a friend, for we are in a land of troubles and of sorrows. Now, if Christ had not suffered he could not have been a faithful high-priest, made like unto his brethren. We should never have had that sweet text—"He was tempted in all points, like as we are, yet without sin," if he had not suffered. But now he knows all shapes of suffering. It is not possible that even out of the thousands now in this house there should be one heart whose case Christ cannot meet.

"In every pang that rends the heart
The man of sorrows had a part."

Disease, sickness of body, poverty, need, friendlessness, hopelessness, desertion—he knows all these. You cannot cast human suffering into any shape that is new to Christ. "In all their afflictions he was afflicted." If you feel a thorn in your foot, remember that it once pierced his head. If you have a trouble or a difficulty, you may see there the mark of his hands, for he has climbed that way before. The whole path of sorrow has his blood-bedabbled footsteps all along, for the Man of Sorrows has been there, and he can now have sympathy with you. "Yes," I hear one say, "but my sorrows are the result of sin." So were his; though not his own, yet the result of sin they were. "Yes," you say, "but I am slandered, and I cannot bear it." They called him a drunken man, and a wine-bibber. Why, when you once think of the sufferings of Christ, yours are not worth a thought. Like the small dust of a balance that may be blown away with the breath of an infant, such are our agonies and our trials when compared with his. Drink thy little cup; see what a cup he drained. The little vinegar and gall that fall to thy share thou mayest gladly recede, for these light afflictions, which are but for a moment, are not worthy to be compared to the sufferings through which he passed.

Finally, upon this point; he thus became perfect as our exemplar. This, too, was necessary in bringing many sons unto glory, for we come to heaven by following the example of Christ, as well as by being washed in his blood. "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord;" that holiness is best of all promoted by an investigation of Christ's character, and a studious imitation of all its points. Now had Christ not suffered he could not have been an example to us. We should have said, "Yes, yes, he may be an example to unsuffering angels, but not to men who have to tread the hot coals of the furnace." He could have afforded no example of patience if he had never suffered; he could never have taught us to forgive if he had never felt injuries; he could not have trained us to holy courage if he had never fought a battle; he could never have shown us the way to make tribulation work experience, and experience hope, if through tribulation he had not himself waded to his throne. We want not an example taken from princes to be applied to peasants. We need a poor man to be an example for the poor; we want a man who lives in private to teach us how to live in retirement; we want one who fears not the face of crowds to show us how to walk in our public ways. We want, if we would meet the case of fallen humanity, a man just like the Savior, who passed through all the various phases of life, was in all companies, was shot at from all quarters, was tempted in all points like as we are, and this could not have been if he had been led in quiet ways along a path of joy. He must do business on the tempestuous deeps; his ship must rock, his anchor drag, the thick darkness and the lightnings must gather round him; they did so, and thus the captain of our salvation was made perfect through suffering, as an example for our imitation. I would that we might each of us know him in the efficacy of his blood, in the glory of his righteousness, in the sweetness of his sympathy, and in the perfection of his example, for then should we know him to the joy of our hearts for ever.
 

Josiah

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It is our salvation that is made complete by His suffering.... HE is was not made complete; this is referring to His ministry, mission, role - not His character which was, is and ever will be perfect.

And note that this verse does NOT say Jesus personally was made complete via the Law but rather salvation via suffering. But actually both are true: justification is ours because of His fulfillment of the Law in our place and His suffering on the Cross in our place. But again, HE is not saved via the Law OR via the Cross -- He had nothing to be saved from. Jesus is not the Saved One, He is the Savior. Jesus is not the one who needs saving - WE ARE. The Law does not save, it condemns because no mere mortal keeps it (only one did - the God/Man, the Incarnate Second Person of the Trinity, Jesus).

We are not justified by perfectly obeying all 613 + commandments... by taping God's help to make ourselves absolutely PERFECT (just as and as much as God is), absolutely HOLY (just as and as much as God is), absolutely LOVING (just as and as much as Christ does), having the exact same attitude and life as Christ, ALWAYS hitting the mark and NEVER missing it - in our nature, our thoughts, our words, our deeds, 24/7. Nope. The Law cannot save anyone from its condemnations. Modern Judaism, Islam, Bhakti Hinduism (and some Catholics, Mormons and "Evangelicals") are wrong: we don't save ourselves via the Law (even with the extra TIME and HELP God gives), we need a SAVIOR (not a helper, not a possibility-maker but a SAVIOR). And the central, defining, foundational point of Christianity is that God provided that SAVIOR, He is Christ (thus the name of our faith: CHRISTianity, not HELPianity, lol).



- Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah
 

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We have rested from our works when we have rested in his rest.

Now we do HIS works through us by obedience.
Can't sin at the same time as he is working through us. Can't have him working through us without surrendering to him obediently.
 
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TurtleHare

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We have rested from our works when we have rested in his rest.

Now we do HIS works through us by obedience.
Can't sin at the same time as he is working through us. Can't have him working through us without surrendering to him obediently.

You seem to think you aren't sinning because you've said you don't feel the spirit convicting you but how about you think about this that it might be the spirit is telling you that you can't obey all His commandments and that is why Jesus died on the cross? Will you then believe or will you keep on ignoring Him?
 

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The cross is a moment in time, Yeshua has moved on into the Heavenly Sanctuary to finish up the work of salvation process. We by faith must walk this path, accept the work of the cross and be lead by faith into the Heavenly Sanctuary praying at the altar of incense as part of the Royal Priesthood. We can not be sinners forever.
 

Josiah

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to finish up the work of salvation process.

His life, death and resurrection were insufficient?

Where does Scripture state that He continues His work for our salvation AFTER His ascension? And if so, when will He complete it - so that we can begin to look to Him as The Savior (not WILL be the Savior at some unknown point in the future)? Where is it taught that He is not YET the Savior because He's still working on becoming that?


:help:



- Josiah (Who believes that Jesus IS the SAVIOR - even now)
 

TurtleHare

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Poor Jesus who died for us couldn't fully grant us redemption is what I keep hearing and it's anti-Christ if I dare say because it goes against what the Christ died for and now tells you that you have to work or you can't get in? C'mon! We walk by faith means that we're already in the IN and the way out is if we turn away from him, you know? If you're there, the wrong way is the way out, not in! I'm in His hand and he keeps me there but if I jump on out then that's my fault and my problem but my staying in his hand by faith because he's working there in me to keep me in his fold. We are told to keep our eyes on Jesus but all I keep on hearing is keep your eyes on you instead and what's that gonna do but cause a concern since my faith isn't going to be in me but in Jesus.
 

visionary

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His life, death and resurrection were insufficient?

Where does Scripture state that He continues His work for our salvation AFTER His ascension? And if so, when will He complete it - so that we can begin to look to Him as The Savior (not WILL be the Savior at some unknown point in the future)? Where is it taught that He is not YET the Savior because He's still working on becoming that?


:help:



- Josiah (Who believes that Jesus IS the SAVIOR - even now)

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

We know transgression is not finished, the end of sin is not here, the atonement for the wicked happens at the real Yom Kippur, and everlasting righteousness comes with Yeshua's return....
 

Alithis

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Poor Jesus who died for us couldn't fully grant us redemption is what I keep hearing and it's anti-Christ if I dare say because it goes against what the Christ died for and now tells you that you have to work or you can't get in? C'mon! We walk by faith means that we're already in the IN and the way out is if we turn away from him, you know? If you're there, the wrong way is the way out, not in! I'm in His hand and he keeps me there but if I jump on out then that's my fault and my problem but my staying in his hand by faith because he's working there in me to keep me in his fold. We are told to keep our eyes on Jesus but all I keep on hearing is keep your eyes on you instead and what's that gonna do but cause a concern since my faith isn't going to be in me but in Jesus.

so do you keep your eyes on jesus ? tell me , who are your eyes on when you go and commit that sin you keep saying you can't stop doing ?.. (which means ,accordong to your reasoning , you cant repent ,_so god who calls us all to repentance, called us to something we can't do ?.. nope! he calls us to something he empowers us to do.so there is no excuse to not repent .
so are your eyes on the lord Jesus when you are turning your back on him and committing that sin ... ?
what sin is it by the way ...?
 

Josiah

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so do you keep your eyes on jesus ? tell me , who are your eyes on when you go and commit that sin you keep saying you can't stop doing ?.. (which means ,accordong to your reasoning , you cant repent ,_so god who calls us all to repentance, called us to something we can't do ?.. nope! he calls us to something he empowers us to do.so there is no excuse to not repent .
so are your eyes on the lord Jesus when you are turning your back on him and committing that sin ... ?
what sin is it by the way ...?

NO ONE has ever used the word "can't" but you.

We're still waiting for you to list the full names of just ten living Christians who are perfect, holy, sinless - who NEVER "miss the mark" or "fall short" - who are PERFECT just as and to the same extent that God is perfect, 24/7..... who are HOLY just as and to the same extent that God is holy, 24/7..... who are LOVING to all just as and to the same extent that Christ is loving, 24/7...... who are absolutely, divinely RIGHTIOUS just as and to the same extent that God is, 24/7..... that have EXACTLY the same attitude and life as Christ...... I'm not asking for documentation of this for for all 2.2 billion Christians, just for TEN. So far, you haven't given us even one.... not even one. SAINT Paul states that he IS (present tense!) IS the "CHIEF of sinners." IS.... CHIEF.... SINNER. So he can't be on your list of 10. Maybe there's a reason you can't even list just ten.... not even one....... maybe because you're wrong.

Of course, it could be that Scripture is correct (and thus you are wrong). "Anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar and deceives only himself." "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "ALL fall short."




Pax Soli CHRISTI



- Josiah
 
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TurtleHare

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so do you keep your eyes on jesus ? tell me , who are your eyes on when you go and commit that sin you keep saying you can't stop doing ?.. (which means ,accordong to your reasoning , you cant repent ,_so god who calls us all to repentance, called us to something we can't do ?.. nope! he calls us to something he empowers us to do.so there is no excuse to not repent .
so are your eyes on the lord Jesus when you are turning your back on him and committing that sin ... ?
what sin is it by the way ...?

Do you think your eyes are always on Jesus, Alithis, be honest, don't deceive us or we'll call you a liar which I believe people are already calling you since you think you're sinless or something. How are you doing with that anyway?
 
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