LAW and GOSPEL

[Josiah]

well he said to love the lord God with all our heart etc.. then he said if you do you will do as i tell you ,you will do what i say .. what has he told us to do ?
To GO out
-Heal the sick
-preach the gospel
-Drive out demons
-Baptize in his name
-and make more disciples..
this is what he has told us to do

Well partly..... He also said to be PERFECT just as He is.... to be HOLY just as He is...... to live EXACTLY as Jesus did.... to LOVE all people on the planet to the same extent that JEsus loved on the Cross.... to make disciples of all 7.3 billion people on the planet..... and much more. The question I have for you again is: DO YOU? Are you OBEDIENT by doing ALL those things..... ALL the time..... PERFECTLY..... as much as God? In your nature, attitude, thinking, speaking and doing? 24/7? IF not, then you "miss the mark" (the meaning of the word "sin"), you "fall short" you are DISobedient, you sin. And as you note, if you are going to embrace the LAW as the mode for salvation, then if you fail - you go straight to hell. Now, you MIGHT want to consider Christianity! You might want to consider the GOSPEL! You might want to learn about Jesus and the Cross and the Blood and the unconditional LOVE and the free gift and ..... MERCY! Unless you think you are one who makes the Bible a liar when it proclaims that NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one..... that NO ONE is good but God exclusively..... that if one CLAIMS to be without sin, to hit the mark, to be obedient - they LIE and the DECEIVE themselves (but not God or any human). I hope you'll someday consider looking to the Cross..... embracing the Gospel.... coming into Christianity and abandoning the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hindu (all of which know only the Law and look to God ONLY to give them the TIME and HELP they need to save themselves).

So any one who says they love the lord and is not making any attempt to do any of these things

NO WHERE in the Bible does the word "attempt" appear. NO WHERE in the Bible does the word "try" appear.

You seem to hate the Law as much as you hate the Gospel. You water down the Law SO MUCH as to make it entirely unrecognizable, insulting both the Law and the Lawgiver. NO WHERE did God EVER say, "Try - that's all I ask.' NO WHERE did God give any suggestions. God gave 613 LAWS in just the OT alone, not ONE of them prefaced with, "Well, it's okay if you don't do this..... I don't care about what I just said.... but it would be kinda cool if you would at least TRY now and then? Hey, could ya?" You not only IGNORE the Gospel but you make the Law just a joke - a meaningless, toothless bunch of suggestions that God really doesn't care if you do them or not. You don't need forgiveness, mercy - because you have SO destroyed the Law as to be irrelevant, moot, meaningless.

who Goes and does the will of the master .

I'm still waiting for that list of just 10 living Christians who DO all the Master has called us to do: PERFECT, HOLY, all loving, always righteous, die for their enemies, have made disciples of all 7.3 billion people, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. etc., etc., etc. Ten people that prove the Bible is wrong when it says that NO ONE is good..... NO ONE is righteous..... ALL fall short...... if anyone claims to be without sin they LIE and DECEIVE themselves..... and prove that Jesus is unnecessary and a joke and the Gospel foolish since we can save ourselves given enough time and help.






- Josiah

 

[Alithis]

Well partly..... He also said to be PERFECT just as He is.... to be HOLY just as He is...... to live EXACTLY as Jesus did.... to LOVE all people on the planet to the same extent that JEsus loved on the Cross.... to make disciples of all 7.3 billion people on the planet..... and much more. The question I have for you again is: DO YOU? Are you OBEDIENT by doing ALL those things..... ALL the time..... PERFECTLY..... as much as God? In your nature, attitude, thinking, speaking and doing? 24/7? IF not, then you "miss the mark" (the meaning of the word "sin"), you "fall short" you are DISobedient, you sin. And as you note, if you are going to embrace the LAW as the mode for salvation, then if you fail - you go straight to hell. Now, you MIGHT want to consider Christianity! You might want to consider the GOSPEL! You might want to learn about Jesus and the Cross and the Blood and the unconditional LOVE and the free gift and ..... MERCY! Unless you think you are one who makes the Bible a liar when it proclaims that NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one..... that NO ONE is good but God exclusively..... that if one CLAIMS to be without sin, to hit the mark, to be obedient - they LIE and the DECEIVE themselves (but not God or any human). I hope you'll someday consider looking to the Cross..... embracing the Gospel.... coming into Christianity and abandoning the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hindu (all of which know only the Law and look to God ONLY to give them the TIME and HELP they need to save themselves).

So any one who says they love the lord and is not making any attempt to do any of these things (but making a pile of excuses ) is displaying by theier action that they love themselves more then they love the lord
All their pious words are hot air and falsehood if their is no action accompanying them






I'm still waiting for that list of just 10 living Christians who DO all the Master has called us to do: PERFECT, HOLY, all loving, always righteous, die for their enemies, have made disciples of all 7.3 billion people, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. etc., etc., etc. Ten people that prove the Bible is wrong when it says that NO ONE is good..... NO ONE is righteous..... ALL fall short...... if anyone claims to be without sin they LIE and DECEIVE themselves..... and prove that Jesus is unnecessary and a joke and the Gospel foolish since we can save ourselves given enough time and help.




- Josiah

you still stuck in that unbelief then huh ?
still not realizing the new creation in Christ that those who have been born again have become .

well perhaps you should go and do what he has told you to do..
get baptized (buried with him into his death by baptism and receive the holy Spirit .

then and only then can you even-begin too live as that new creation.
in the mean time your running around bickering like children .
he does not tel us to DO anything that is impossible for us to do ..

so instead of making excuses for doing some sin over and over and over again.. -- how about you stop doing it .

life is so much more joyful when we are not resisting the holy Spirit in order to keep doing THAT sin.

 

[Josiah]

Well partly..... He also said to be PERFECT just as He is.... to be HOLY just as He is...... to live EXACTLY as Jesus did.... to LOVE all people on the planet to the same extent that JEsus loved on the Cross.... to make disciples of all 7.3 billion people on the planet..... and much more. The question I have for you again is: DO YOU? Are you OBEDIENT by doing ALL those things..... ALL the time..... PERFECTLY..... as much as God? In your nature, attitude, thinking, speaking and doing? 24/7? IF not, then you "miss the mark" (the meaning of the word "sin"), you "fall short" you are DISobedient, you sin. And as you note, if you are going to embrace the LAW as the mode for salvation, then if you fail - you go straight to hell. Now, you MIGHT want to consider Christianity! You might want to consider the GOSPEL! You might want to learn about Jesus and the Cross and the Blood and the unconditional LOVE and the free gift and ..... MERCY! Unless you think you are one who makes the Bible a liar when it proclaims that NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one..... that NO ONE is good but God exclusively..... that if one CLAIMS to be without sin, to hit the mark, to be obedient - they LIE and the DECEIVE themselves (but not God or any human). I hope you'll someday consider looking to the Cross..... embracing the Gospel.... coming into Christianity and abandoning the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hindu (all of which know only the Law and look to God ONLY to give them the TIME and HELP they need to save themselves).



NO WHERE in the Bible does the word "attempt" appear. NO WHERE in the Bible does the word "try" appear.


You seem to hate the Law as much as you hate the Gospel. You water down the Law SO MUCH as to make it entirely unrecognizable, insulting both the Law and the Lawgiver. NO WHERE did God EVER say, "Try - that's all I ask.' NO WHERE did God give any suggestions. God gave 613 LAWS in just the OT alone, not ONE of them prefaced with, "Well, it's okay if you don't do this..... I don't care about what I just said.... but it would be kinda cool if you would at least TRY now and then? Hey, could ya?" You not only IGNORE the Gospel but you make the Law just a joke - a meaningless, toothless bunch of suggestions that God really doesn't care if you do them or not. You don't need forgiveness, mercy - because you have SO destroyed the Law as to be irrelevant, moot, meaningless.



I'm still waiting for that list of just 10 living Christians who DO all the Master has called us to do: PERFECT, HOLY, all loving, always righteous, die for their enemies, have made disciples of all 7.3 billion people, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. etc., etc., etc. Ten people that prove the Bible is wrong when it says that NO ONE is good..... NO ONE is righteous..... ALL fall short...... if anyone claims to be without sin they LIE and DECEIVE themselves..... and prove that Jesus is unnecessary and a joke and the Gospel foolish since we can save ourselves given enough time and help.



.

he does not tel us to DO anything that is impossible for us to do ..

I see. Then list for us the full names of 10 living people who DO the following: perfectly, absolutely, 24/7, in their nature, attitudes, thoughts, words and actions - and thus prove the Bible wrong when it says NO ONE is righteous.... NO ONE is good.... ALL fall short.... if we claim to be without sin we therefore are LIARS and we DECEIVE only ourselves. Just list them - just 10 - who OBEY all these things:

Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."

Matthew 28:19, "Go and make disciples of all people, baptizing them and teaching them."



When you come up with those 10 PERFECT people who OBEY and DO all 613 + commands - in nature, thought, word, deed - 24/7.... then of course, you must declare the following Scriptures are lies.

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death has came to all for all have sinned."

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."



Your self-righteous opposition to BOTH Law and Gospel.... and your promoting of the Bhakti Hindu soteriology rather than the Christian one, both stem from your rejection of the law.... replacing the THOU SHALTS with "I suggest that you kinda TRY and sorta ATTEMPT now and then, if you would please." You water down the Law as to make it unrecognizable, silly..... The Law needs to convict you before you will see any need for YOU to receive MERCY, before you will FALL to your knees at the foot of the Cross, NOT boasting of how perfect and holy and obedient YOU alone are (making Scripture wrong) but rather crying "Lord, be MERCIFUL to me - the sinner." You reject the Gospel because you reject the Law. Consider the opening post..... let the Holy Spirit work.




- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

Jesus said:

"He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ I tell you, this tax collector went down to his house justified, rather than the other.”

Luke 18:9-13




.

 

[visionary]

When you paint a wall. There comes a point where you stop and say 'done'. Why? Because it has reached the point where you are happy with the results. So it is with God, there is a point where He says 'perfect' because the person's life is wholly committed to Him. Anyone living this life will tell you that the more deeply they look, the more they see they have to go. Perfection is infinite in time and deed. But all we have to achieve is that point where God says "he/she is righteous, he/she is Holy" as He is the only one we have to impress.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Yeshua took the wrath of God upon himself in that bitter cup of evil and filth that night of anguish. Today, we might be counted as righteous and clean before God, when Yeshua applies His blood to our record in the Book of life. If you have found your righteousness in him, that righteousness will abide, and God will see Himself reflected in us in thought, word and in deed.

It is not something fellow man can see, unless it is the time of the transformation, then all will see. If we look for faults, we become the accuser and our eyes and ears will not be able to see or hear as God sees and here it. So the idea that we can see the people "perfect" or "without guile" is like saying we are there and know what to look for. TO declare that there is no one who is righteous, perfect, holy, in Yeshua, is declaring it can not be done, God is a liar, and it is impossible this side of heaven. Not a good position to stand in.

 

[Alithis]

When you paint a wall. There comes a point where you stop and say 'done'. Why? Because it has reached the point where you are happy with the results. So it is with God, there is a point where He says 'perfect' because the person's life is wholly committed to Him. Anyone living this life will tell you that the more deeply they look, the more they see they have to go. Perfection is infinite in time and deed. But all we have to achieve is that point where God says "he/she is righteous, he/she is Holy" as He is the only one we have to impress.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Yeshua took the wrath of God upon himself in that bitter cup of evil and filth that night of anguish. Today, we might be counted as righteous and clean before God, when Yeshua applies His blood to our record in the Book of life. If you have found your righteousness in him, that righteousness will abide, and God will see Himself reflected in us in thought, word and in deed.

It is not something fellow man can see, unless it is the time of the transformation, then all will see. If we look for faults, we become the accuser and our eyes and ears will not be able to see or hear as God sees and here it. So the idea that we can see the people "perfect" or "without guile" is like saying we are there and know what to look for. TO declare that there is no one who is righteous, perfect, holy, in Yeshua, is declaring it can not be done, God is a liar, and it is impossible this side of heaven. Not a good position to stand in.

it declares the truth about the lost..
who are yet to be made new ..

the truth about those who have Been reborn..i am finding,is utterly astonishing..
it is little wonder the advasary does try hard to keep that knowledge from us.
and it seems his most powerful method is instutionalised religion.

 

[Lamb]

I see. Then list for us the full names of 10 living people who DO the following: perfectly, absolutely, 24/7, in their nature, attitudes, thoughts, words and actions - and thus prove the Bible wrong when it says NO ONE is righteous.... NO ONE is good.... ALL fall short.... if we claim to be without sin we therefore are LIARS and we DECEIVE only ourselves. Just list them - just 10 - who OBEY all these things:

Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."

Matthew 28:19, "Go and make disciples of all people, baptizing them and teaching them."



When you come up with those 10 PERFECT people who OBEY and DO all 613 + commands - in nature, thought, word, deed - 24/7.... then of course, you must declare the following Scriptures are lies.

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death has came to all for all have sinned."

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."



Your self-righteous opposition to BOTH Law and Gospel.... and your promoting of the Bhakti Hindu soteriology rather than the Christian one, both stem from your rejection of the law.... replacing the THOU SHALTS with "I suggest that you kinda TRY and sorta ATTEMPT now and then, if you would please." You water down the Law as to make it unrecognizable, silly..... The Law needs to convict you before you will see any need for YOU to receive MERCY, before you will FALL to your knees at the foot of the Cross, NOT boasting of how perfect and holy and obedient YOU alone are (making Scripture wrong) but rather crying "Lord, be MERCIFUL to me - the sinner." You reject the Gospel because you reject the Law. Consider the opening post..... let the Holy Spirit work.




- Josiah

You won't be getting a list from anyone. But you and I both know that People want to believe that they're helping themselves to improve and thus, earning their way into heaven....


INSTEAD of seeing that our sins are forgiven.

INSTEAD of seeing that it's God who gives us faith, keeps us in faith and guides us into producing fruit.

INSTEAD of seeing that our obedience isn't gaining us something since the obedience of Jesus covers us. Our disobedience could be the cause of us rejecting the Savior and the forgiveness won for us and we damn ourselves.

It's terrible that God does so much yet man wants to keep insisting he do something that God has done, thus ejecting God from his life and salvation.

 

[Alithis]

What has any person said to do that obtains what God has done?
Obedience proves we have already obtained it.
We are saved for a purpose.

What is it you desire to hear?that you can drift aimlessly through your life doing as you please with a little sinful pleasure here and there ,an episode or two of game of thrones perhaps,because you prayed a sinners prayer or had water splashed on. Your head without your knowledge..?
You wont hear it from the scriptures.
You say with words..God has done it all..yes? Yes! He has.. So why not live as though that is true.or do you not actually believe it?

If God has already Done it..(and he has)
Then why live your life as if he has not done it?
God has done it all you say..i need do nothing... But what is it God has done?
Has he set you free from sins power.?yes.
Then why do you advocate that a person cannot walk in that freedom? Why mock and accuse ones who stand upon what God has done..?

You deny thevery things you claimhe has done.
He says ..whom the son sets free is free indeed, but you say.. No one is free and you cant be free.
Which is it..
I see only a constant double minded message from some here.
God has done it.. But you cant have it.. Is NOT what by bible states.

 

[Josiah]

But all we have to achieve is that point where God says "he/she is righteous, he/she is Holy" as He is the only one we have to impress.

God (who is just and who cannot lie) says, "This one is PERFECT even as and to the same extent as I am" when that one is. God says, "This one is RIGHTEOUS, this one is WITHOUT sin, this one never misses the mark, this one obeys ALL that I have commanded this one has made disciples of all people, this one is good even as I am" when that one is. God does not lie.

So, the question is: Are you? Do you? Or is the Bible correct and not lying when it declares, "For ALL fall short" (the meaning of "sin"), "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "NO ONE is good but God exclusively." "If one claims to be without sin, he is a liar and deceives only himself."

Yeshua took the wrath of God upon himself in that bitter cup of evil and filth that night of anguish. Today, we might be counted as righteous and clean before God, when Yeshua applies His blood to our record in the Book of life. If you have found your righteousness in him, that righteousness will abide, and God will see Himself reflected in us in thought, word and in deed.

Ah, the GOSPEL! Now you are looking to the Gospel for mercy, forgiveness, being covered by His Blood, saved by JESUS.... rather than insisting that I'm SO goody-goody, SO wonderful, SO obedient, SO righteous, that I don't need no God, no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no justification, no salvation, no mercy, no forgiveness BECAUSE I'm looking to the Law as the means of justification, I'm looking in the mirror for the Savior, I'm insisting that my becoming obedient is what justifies (making Jesus a joke, the Bible a lie, and actually Bhakti Hinduism correct on this point rather than Christianity).

If we look for faults, we become the accuser and our eyes and ears will not be able to see or hear as God sees and here it.

I completely disagree.

GOD is the accuser. And the theological/soteriological purpose of the Law IS to show God's accusation, that we sin, that we fall short, that we miss the mark, that we are disobedient. The Law - if we resist the extreme watering down to nothing that some here at CH insist on doing - accuses us, condemns us, shows us how we fall short, how we miss the mark, why the Bible is correct when it says that ALL fall short, ALL miss the mark... that NO ONE is righteous, NO ONE is good..... we are poor miserable sinners NOT self-righteous, obedient, perfect persons who need no God, no Christ, no Cross, no Lamb, no Blood, no MERCY..... we are sinners..... we are fallen (and we can't pick ourselves us!)..... we DESERVE death and hell (and if there was only Law, that's what we'd get)..... we come NOT looking to the Law and claiming obedience, we come looking to the Gospel, looking to the Cross, and pleading, "Be MERCIFUL to me - the sinner."

TO declare that there is no one who is righteous, perfect, holy, in Yeshua, is declaring it can not be done, God is a liar, and it is impossible this side of heaven.

I never said it is IMPOSSIBLE, but the Bible says it never happens. "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "ALL fall short." "ALL miss the mark." "NO ONE is good but God exclusively." "If one claims to be without sin, he is a liar and deceives only himself." IF there are all these perfect people..... sinless people..... holy people..... people who love all just as much as Christ...... people who die for their enemies..... people who have made disciples of all 7.3 billion people..... people who are OBEDIENT, people who fulfill the Law..... then please identify them. I'll ask you too: please give the full names and locations of at least 10 living people who are perfect (NOT who are forgiven becuase they are NOT perfect, NOT sinless..... NOT who are covered by the Gospel and mercy because they are NOT perfect, NOT holy, NOT sinless, NOT obedient) but the names of 10 who have no sin, who are as perfect as God is, as loving as Christ is, who live EXACTLY as Christ did, who have the IDENTICAL attitude that Christ does, who always "hit the mark" in nature, in attitude, in thought, in word, in deed..... perfectly...... 24/7. Just 10 names. If it happens, document it - and thus show Scripture is wrong and that Jesus is not necessary for we can save ourselves by our own righteousness, holiness, perfection, works and need no Savior, need no Gospel. Should be easy.... such would really stand out and be easy to identify.


If the Law could justify.... we we can be perfect/sinless/obedient..... always hitting the mark rather than missing it ("sin")..... then Christ died for no purpose, Christ was a stupid joke, Christianity is fundamentally silly and wrong. The Bible says, "If justification were through keeping the Law, then Christ died for no purpose." It is NOT a matter of self being so good God is mandated to let us into heaven. Read Galatians 2:21. Read Luke 18:9-13. Read John 3:16. Let the Law ACCUSE and show how sinful, undeserving we are.... then let the Gospel pour out on you God's unconditional love, His grace (getting what we DO NOT deserve), His mercy (not getting what we DO deserve), His justification/salvation, His forgiveness. It's the soteriology of Chrsitianity (in contrast to that of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism some here at CH constantly promote against Christianity): Christ is the Savior. NOT self. The GOSPEL justifies through Christ, not the LAW by self.





Thank you.


Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[visionary]

... <....snipped fore brevity...>
I completely disagree.

GOD is the accuser. And the theological/soteriological purpose of the Law IS to show God's accusation, that we sin, that we fall short, that we miss the mark, that we are disobedient. The Law - if we resist the extreme watering down to nothing that some here at CH insist on doing - accuses us, condemns us, shows us how we fall short, how we miss the mark, why the Bible is correct when it says that ALL fall short, ALL miss the mark... that NO ONE is righteous, NO ONE is good..... we are poor miserable sinners NOT self-righteous, obedient, perfect persons who need no God, no Christ, no Cross, no Lamb, no Blood, no MERCY..... we are sinners..... we are fallen (and we can't pick ourselves us!)..... we DESERVE death and hell (and if there was only Law, that's what we'd get)..... we come NOT looking to the Law and claiming obedience, we come looking to the Gospel, looking to the Cross, and pleading, "Be MERCIFUL to me - the sinner."


Thank you.
Pax CHRISTI

Josiah

First.. let me say that God never accuses... why? Because His statements are always facts.
Second... the Law is for accusing and excusing. ... but then it will be the advocate Yeshua who excuses, and the devil accuser who does the accusing. Have you ever wondered what it would be like if we had never sinned? This universe is full of His grace, love, mercy, kindness, tolerance, longsuffering. There is a reason for that. It is not Him who condemns. It is Him who takes responsibility for everything that happens in His universe. He doesn't break the law but He does warn of the consequences of breaking the law.

 

[Josiah]

God (who is just and who cannot lie) says, "This one is PERFECT even as and to the same extent as I am" when that one is. God says, "This one is RIGHTEOUS, this one is WITHOUT sin, this one never misses the mark, this one obeys ALL that I have commanded this one has made disciples of all people, this one is good even as I am" when that one is. God does not lie.


So, the question is: Are you? Do you? Or is the Bible correct and not lying when it declares, "For ALL fall short" (the meaning of "sin"), "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "NO ONE is good but God exclusively." "If one claims to be without sin, he is a liar and deceives only himself."


Ah, the GOSPEL! Now you are looking to the Gospel for mercy, forgiveness, being covered by His Blood, saved by JESUS.... rather than insisting that I'm SO goody-goody, SO wonderful, SO obedient, SO righteous, that I don't need no God, no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no justification, no salvation, no mercy, no forgiveness BECAUSE I'm looking to the Law as the means of justification, I'm looking in the mirror for the Savior, I'm insisting that my becoming obedient is what justifies (making Jesus a joke, the Bible a lie, and actually Bhakti Hinduism correct on this point rather than Christianity).



GOD is the accuser. And the theological/soteriological purpose of the Law IS to show God's accusation, that we sin, that we fall short, that we miss the mark, that we are disobedient. The Law - if we resist the extreme watering down to nothing that some here at CH insist on doing - accuses us, condemns us, shows us how we fall short, how we miss the mark, why the Bible is correct when it says that ALL fall short, ALL miss the mark... that NO ONE is righteous, NO ONE is good..... we are poor miserable sinners NOT self-righteous, obedient, perfect persons who need no God, no Christ, no Cross, no Lamb, no Blood, no MERCY..... we are sinners..... we are fallen (and we can't pick ourselves us!)..... we DESERVE death and hell (and if there was only Law, that's what we'd get)..... we come NOT looking to the Law and claiming obedience, we come looking to the Gospel, looking to the Cross, and pleading, "Be MERCIFUL to me - the sinner."



I never said it is IMPOSSIBLE, but the Bible says it never happens. "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "ALL fall short." "ALL miss the mark." "NO ONE is good but God exclusively." "If one claims to be without sin, he is a liar and deceives only himself." IF there are all these perfect people..... sinless people..... holy people..... people who love all just as much as Christ...... people who die for their enemies..... people who have made disciples of all 7.3 billion people..... people who are OBEDIENT, people who fulfill the Law..... then please identify them. I'll ask you too: please give the full names and locations of at least 10 living people who are perfect (NOT who are forgiven becuase they are NOT perfect, NOT sinless..... NOT who are covered by the Gospel and mercy because they are NOT perfect, NOT holy, NOT sinless, NOT obedient) but the names of 10 who have no sin, who are as perfect as God is, as loving as Christ is, who live EXACTLY as Christ did, who have the IDENTICAL attitude that Christ does, who always "hit the mark" in nature, in attitude, in thought, in word, in deed..... perfectly...... 24/7. Just 10 names. If it happens, document it - and thus show Scripture is wrong and that Jesus is not necessary for we can save ourselves by our own righteousness, holiness, perfection, works and need no Savior, need no Gospel. Should be easy.... such would really stand out and be easy to identify.



If the Law could justify.... we we can be perfect/sinless/obedient..... always hitting the mark rather than missing it ("sin")..... then Christ died for no purpose, Christ was a stupid joke, Christianity is fundamentally silly and wrong. The Bible says, "If justification were through keeping the Law, then Christ died for no purpose." It is NOT a matter of self being so good God is mandated to let us into heaven. Read Galatians 2:21. Read Luke 18:9-13. Read John 3:16. Let the Law ACCUSE and show how sinful, undeserving we are.... then let the Gospel pour out on you God's unconditional love, His grace (getting what we DO NOT deserve), His mercy (not getting what we DO deserve), His justification/salvation, His forgiveness. It's the soteriology of Chrsitianity (in contrast to that of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism some here at CH constantly promote against Christianity): Christ is the Savior. NOT self. The GOSPEL justifies through Christ, not the LAW by self.

Josiah, First.. let me say that God never accuses... why? Because His statements are always facts.

I disagree. The FACT is we are imperfect, disobedient, sinful. Paul was not lying when he wrote, "I am CHIEF of sinners." "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "If one claims to be without sin, he is a liar and deceives only himself." The FACT is we don't hit the mark.... we DO need Christ, the Cross, the Blood, mercy, forgiveness (the Gospel).... that's the fact.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Divide? Distinction isn't dividing.

It seems like it is dividing when LAW is somehow all about "self" and what "YOU DO" as we've been told repeatedly in Josiah's posts while GOSPEL is all about Jesus and what he did as we have also been told repeatedly by several posters. Yet the facts of holy scripture are that do and do not commands are always present in the proclamation of the good news about Jesus Christ. Even in the letters of saint Paul.

 

[TurtleHare]

What is good news if Jesus didn't get the task done is my question because what kind of lame good news is it to be told you are forgiven except your really not and you still need to do do do. How is that trusting in a savior for salvation if I gotta trust in me instead. ..who will save me you know what I mean?

 

[visionary]

I disagree. The FACT is we are imperfect, disobedient, sinful. Paul was not lying when he wrote, "I am CHIEF of sinners." "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "If one claims to be without sin, he is a liar and deceives only himself." The FACT is we don't hit the mark.... we DO need Christ, the Cross, the Blood, mercy, forgiveness (the Gospel).... that's the fact.
- Josiah

We agree... but that is not all....Overcoming is God's goal for us.... the vicious circle of sin and ask for forgiveness..repeat...is not gaining ground if transformation, renewing of the mind, walking in His strength doesn't happen.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What is good news if Jesus didn't get the task done is my question because what kind of lame good news is it to be told you are forgiven except your really not and you still need to do do do. How is that trusting in a savior for salvation if I gotta trust in me instead. ..who will save me you know what I mean?

The good news is what Jesus preached. The sermon on the mount is very good news indeed.

 

[Alithis]

josiah you disagree with scripture on so many levels. why?
whats the point of believing in sone one who cant do what he has said he cant do?
the lord Jesus i believe in CAN and does set free,deliver,restore,make new,etc .

you keep reffering to the unregenerate souks who has not yet born again. you dont seem to be able to see the difference betwern scripture which declares what all men are before they are saved and the new creation theu become once born again.

they dont stay the same. they are made the rightousness of god in christ jesus.
you need to read past your set veses and ser the whole text.

 

[Lamb]

We are made righteous, yet we still sin and which you seem to disagree with, correct me if I'm wrong and don't accuse please?

 

[Josiah]

whats the point of believing in sone one who cant do what he has said he cant do?

Good question. Why say you believe in the Savior who doesn't save? You save yourself by keeping the Law.

you keep reffering to the unregenerate souks who has not yet born again.

I've ONLY asked for the full names and location of TEN living people, just TEN who perfectly obey all things God has commanded. You haven't given me even ONE name (not even yourself). So, is your point that there is not even one "born again Christian" on the planet today OR that you are wrong and while it is POSSIBLE to be obedient, no one actually is (this side of heaven)? Which is it?

Or are you still working on posting that list of at least 10 perfect living "born again Christians"? Maybe you're having a hard time because you can't find any - including the one you see in the mirror? I HOPE that's the case - because that would prove your theology to be false. Please read the opening post.



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[TurtleHare]

The good news is what Jesus preached. The sermon on the mount is very good news indeed.

Jesus preached both Law and Gospel so can YOU tell the difference between what Law and Gospel are because I'd like to hear your definition and I'm not sure you've given it yet. If you did then I've missed it so you can go ahead and point to that post in this here thread.

 

[visionary]

In writing Psalm 119, David can't say enough about following the Torah. David writes the following about himself:

Psalm 119:22 -- "Take away from me reproach and contempt, for I have kept your testimonies."
Psalm 119:51 -- "... yet have I not declined in my interest or turned aside from your Law."
Psalm 119:56 -- "I have kept your precepts ..."
Psalm 119:102 -- "I have not turned aside from your ordinances ..."
Psalm 119:121 -- "I have done justice and righteousness ..."

Is this the same David that committed adultery with Bathsheba and had Uriah murdered? Not to mention a number of other documented violations of the Torah. How can he claim to have followed "the Law," when we all know how he broke it in some terrible ways? To add to the "confusion," God Himself calls David, "a man after His own heart." (1 Samuel 13:14) So is David a liar? Perhaps God is making an "exception" for him? There is a hint of the answer found in Psalm 119 itself:

Psalm 119:159 -- "Consider how I love your precepts; revive me and give life to me, O Lord, according to your loving kindness."

The term "loving kindness" is hesed in Hebrew, and is the equivalent of the word grace in the "New Testament." David knew he was saved by God's grace -- NOT by keeping all the commandments perfectly, but rather by what he says at the beginning of the verse; "Consider how I love your precepts ..." It all leads back to God's loving forgiving nature, who sees past out sins and loves us, justifies us because of what His begotten Son has done for us, and picks us up, dusts us off, and says "Go and sin no more" no one accuses you.