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Justification

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ImaginaryDay2

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The point is we one thousand five hundred years of Christianity with the Churches alone having Bibles...

The exceptions are very few and very very far between...

THAT is the ORIGINAL matrix of this Faith...

Now we all have our very own Bibles, and Christianity is in decline...

Arsenios

Perhaps the intent of some is to run roughshod over historic Apostolic faith, but to attribute this to us "having our very own bibles" at the expense of relying on strict word of Priests/Bishops/Elders is a bit of a stretch. Luther might have been wrong about many things, but were it not for the Reformers, I'd be lost.
I'm proud to be a Reformation Christian, Lutheran specifically, as it ties me in to historic Christianity equally as much as those with whom Luther split away. I know there are those who will vehemently disagree.
 

Albion

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The point is we one thousand five hundred years of Christianity with the Churches alone having Bibles...

THAT is the ORIGINAL matrix of this Faith...

Now we all have our very own Bibles, and Christianity is in decline...

Arsenios
Seriously? Considering everything which has happened in the past 500 years, you think that it is the appearance of new Bible translations that accounts for Christianity's decline??
 

popsthebuilder

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Thank-you...

With the definite article in front of Faith - eg THE Faith - It has to be construed as something definite...
So WHICH Faith is THE Faith?
It is obviously Christ's Faith, which He discipled to His disciples whom He sent forth as Apostles to disciple all the nations, teaching them and baptizing them...
Our personal faith is obedience to the Gospel of Repentance and seeking entry into the Body of our Lord...

Arsenios
Which...?

I meant faithfulness in reciprical love.

What would drive one to inadvertently abide by the command, but love causing faithfulness?

This of course, isn't to be confused with having heard and believing; initial reception of faith or belief.

Repentance from knowing sin is surely a must, but I thought we were talking about works as a byproduct of faith and love, and so my question was meant more about outward actions that can affect others...it was redundant anyway I suppose.

peace

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Josiah

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I sense a disquieting desire to talk about everything BUT the issue before us.... the issue the RCC split the church over and so boldly condemned.

Lutheranism was a conservative reformation. I know 500 years of history has cast this as something violent and revolutionary, but my readings (including one I'm reading now) tells me that while the polemic language and at times reactions was tragic, Luther's was a very conservative thing... and he sincerely felt the RC Denomination would eventually embrace it rather than so powerfully reject it. Catholics may disagree, but IMO, the agreement among us is stunning - theologically, spiritually and in practice. I feel that Catholicism WAY over-reacted and for POLITICAL and ECONOMIC reasons, did much of what it did (don't forget the RCC was more of a political than religious institution at the time, governed by men who would NEVER would be accepted in the RCC now). And I feel that for political and economic reasons, many pushed Luther and used the Reformation for their own purposes. There was MUCH mishandling on both sides. But let this not get lost: Luther loved the RCC, highly respected even the HORRIBLE popes of his day, and OVERWHELMINGLY agreed with the Church's teachings (indeed, even Indulgences he rejected BECAUSE he felt it was not in line with the teachings of the RCC). I think 500 years of "spin" on ALL sides (and the ability to quote some TERRIBLE things said.... and note some TERRIBLE things done....) has made the Lutheran 'Reformation' seem to be what it wasn't.

What happened, is that radicals followed.... men who did NOT love the Church, did NOT embrace Tradition, did NOT desire to reform... but revolutionaries, who determined that all was rotten and that thigns needed to be re-established from the ground up. Radicals such as the Anabaptists and groups Luther called the "enthuseists." Luther was far more citical of them than he ever was of Catholicism. And IMO (sic), I too feel closer to Catholicism than to this radical (sometimes called "second" and "third" wave Protestantism).

It IS true that for centuries, Scripture played a lesser and lesser role in Catholicism. Biblical ignorance - even among the clergy - was enormous. And it is true that Luther stressed BIBLICAL Authority, while distancing himself from classic Scholasticism and the Humanism that was attempting to replace it in Luther's time - Luther rejected them both and looked to Scripture. But it is wrong to say he was alone in this, wrong to say he did so in the individualistic way the Revolutionaries did (Luther embraced Tradition and the Councils to a great extent), Luther did not reject the authority of the church - just the absolute, unaccountable authority especially when it contradicted Scripture. It was more a difference of degree than kind. And yes, Luther did translate Scripture into the everyday language of the Bible because he felt Scripture is a Means of Grace and that it should be known, but he rejected the "individual interpretation" idea of the Anabaptists and others. And of course, his was not the first German translation - just the first one to be widely owned and read.


NOW, BACK TO THE ISSUE: The Lutheran view on Justification (narrow) - see post 671 - which the RCC anathematized, condemned, and labeled as apostate heresy (and thus the Catholic position at least since 1551 MUST be radically different from).



- Josiah
 

MennoSota

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The account of Saul's baptism by Ananias is straight out of the Book of the Acts of the Holy Apostles...



Acts IS Scripture...



Fake News!

Here is the Truth:

Fully responsible, yes...
With no control at all...

God is Faithful...



Fake News!

Here is the Truth:

God Baptizes, I only repent...
Baptism is into God because it is into Christ and done BY Christ...



God alone CAN enter YOU INTO His Holy Body, the Ekklesia, and MAKE YOU a Member of His Own Body...
And that IS Justification...



Fake News!

Here is the truth:

The Great Commission was only to the 11...
They established apostolic Churches...
The Ekklesia of our Lord...

It's a teaching that is amazingly perverted.
Even Saul was blind until Ananias healed his blindness...
So there is hope yet!



The Spirit came upon people in the OT too...
That's why the Jews were so Sign-addicted...
We are discussing Justification IN Christ BY Christ...

Arsenios
Faux News...
 

ImaginaryDay2

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[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] - can you show me a source that uses the term "Justification - Narrow"

Thanks :)
 

Arsenios

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Imo (and mine alone), might it make more sense that Reformation Christians (this one, anyway, as I can speak for myself) would look to Christ who is present? Yes, we find significance in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (past), but our hope is in a Christ who is also present and shows Himself through means of grace.

He appears to us now as He did after His Ascension after Pentecost...

eg - in His Holy Ones...

Those perfected in His Faith...

These folks exist this day and hour...

And every day and hour...

They are not all that easy to find...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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For some of the Reformation it would cause issues. Faith alone would not be faith alone (in the opinion of some) any longer. It would turn into some issue of "works righteousness", when I don't think that's what the passage has in mind.

It is speaking of the perfecting of the Faith in the person who is practicing it...

Doing the works prescribed by the Faith works together with the Faith to perfect the Faith in the person doing its works...

Not the works of the Law, but the works of the Faith of Christ...

If one does not do these works, then one's faith will not interact with them unto perfecting the person practicing the Faith...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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"Having our very own bibles" at the expense of relying on strict word of Priests/Bishops/Elders is a bit of a stretch.

There is nothing wrong with having one's very own printed Bible, but IF the basis of your Faith is the Written, and not the Discipling of the Apostolic Church that wrote it out of their practice of the Faith of which the Bible bears written witness, then one is living in violation of what is written in the Bible, wherein Christ commissioned the Apostles to disciple the Faith to the nations... It is that discipling, which is unto Salvation by God, which is akin in many ways to the Lutheran narrow-sense of Justification, that becomes the first casualty in the Faith Alone, God Alone, No Human Participation, so-called Salvation...

Were it not for the Reformers, I'd be lost.

That is why God raised them up...
Existentially, if not psychologically, humbling the Latins...
Who had grown way too powerful and proud...

I'm proud to be a Reformation Christian, Lutheran specifically, as it ties me in to historic Christianity equally as much as those with whom Luther split away.

What is needed is the ontological tie, and not merely an historical connection...

Obedience to the command "Repent" is the saving response of man to the Gospel of Christ...

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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It's my work truck -

I ain't no hard-body construction guy...

But I do work for a living...

In the trades...



The point is we somehow managed one thousand five hundred years of Christianity with the Churches alone having Bibles...

The exceptions are very few and very very far between...

THAT is the ORIGINAL matrix of this Faith...

NO printing presses...

ONLY manuscription by the Faithful Members of the Body of Christ...

Now we all have our very own mass produced printed Bibles,
And our Millennials don't care a hoot...
and Christianity is in decline...

Jes' sayin'...

Arsenios

Christianity is hardly in decline. God's chosen, elect children are daily being adopted just as God has ordained. Add to this that the church in China is growing at a rate greater than the early church and it is clear your claim is wrong.
What is in decline is the RC and the OC as they have left their first love and replaced it with idols and works. God cannot bless such apostasy that has moved entirely away from Christ and the Apostles.
 

Arsenios

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Seriously? Considering everything which has happened in the past 500 years, you think that it is the appearance of new Bible translations that accounts for Christianity's decline??

No - It is but a symptom...

We started out with a thousand years of the Faith in which the Latins were the holiest and most persecuted Church on earth... Being made Pope was a sentence of martyrdom for the one appointed... Then came the German Bishops who took over the Papacy - A warrior class who thought the Petrine Church was to have authority over all the Churches, and why did they remove the Filioque from the Creed? In this Apostasy, we broke Communion with them, and in this apostacy and its excesses of power, the Reformation rebelled, and tried to assert the Authority of Scripture over the Church - For they did (wrongly) understand the Latins to BE the Church...

The proper way to reform their Church would have been to join with the Ecumenical Patriarch of the East, and learn the Faith that had been distorted by Apostasy, and make corrections... Instead, they passed out their freshly printed Bibles and proceeded to "PROVE" themselves and their new doctrines to be true based on their understanding of the written word...

And here is the problem with THAT:

Proving the Faith of Christ did NOT happen that way...
Nor did the spread of Christianity...
The Ekklesia is in charge of its Holy Books...
Because the Ekklesia wrote them...
And because they were written for those in the practice of the Faith of Christ...
In the Holy Communion of that Faith...

They were not written for Caesar...
Nor Herod...
Nor Pilate...
Nor Sorcerers...
etc etc...

Arsenios
 

Albion

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Yeh, well, I dont believe any of that mythology about a one true denomination in charge of the books which has never changed and is the only one Jesus had in mind. BUT I must also say that the Reformers knew something of the EOC, and Luther cited the Orthodox when debating against Romish errors. But I believe that the idea of just phoning the Ecumenical Patriarch up and talking with him about doctrine just was not possible in the early 1500s for any German.
 

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Yes, I believe the gift of the Holy Spirit is given in baptism...what I was talking about was a reference to one of your posts pages ago that said something that the Holy Spirit does not baptize.

The Holy Spirit is not the baptiser is he? Jesus is, usually through an elder/priest sometimes through one of the faithful who is not an elder/priest or bishop.
 

MoreCoffee

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The EO teachings are simple, if ineffably profound, and unchanging now for 2000 years, during which time most of the theological wrinkles have been ironed out... I am offering you nothing new here...

Did Christ succeed in establishing His Body the Ekklesia upon this earth?
Or did He fail, and we have Luther and the printing presses for Him to thank for finally getting right what His Own disciples were unable to get right at all?

Arsenios

There is irony in the idea that printed bibles and Martin Luther's doctrine (with variations) was restoring a corrupted and maybe lost gospel.
 

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Without said printing press where would we be:

"Trust us, we know..."

*Shudder...
Not even the RCC asks for such trust in the Ekklesia alone

Blessings

Even without printed bibles the Church still had bibles, just much more expensive in terms of human labour expended to make a copy.
 

Josiah

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Obedience to the command "Repent" is the saving response of man to the Gospel of Christ...

Arsenios

Thus, dead self saves self by the adequate performance of the dead person doing a good work, namely repentance. Thus, the Gospel is actually wrong - Jesus is not the Savior, the Incarnation and Death and Resurrection actually accomplishes nothing for anyone. To quote one Catholic apologist: "Jesus saves no one, Jesus simply makes it possible for all to be saved." I disagree.

This "self saves self by what self does" vs. Jesus is the Savior is at the heart of the debate of the Reformation. See post 671. I think Jesus is the Savior (not simply a helper or possibility maker who saves no one). I think the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of life (not simply the offerer of such). We all agree that those with life, faith and thus justification are called to many and great things (and rewarded to such) but that's another issue for another day (and one we largely agree on).
 

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Seems that in both cases, they look forward to the meeting with Christ. Perhaps the differentiation is that this was the looking forward to the Truth where as now, it would be looking forward to the gathering or second coming.

(Just thinking; though it may be looked down upon (are we ever to look down upon another?))

peace

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I think that Martin Luther's doctrine - including his doctrine on justification as a covering in which the unrighteous are declared to be righteous solely because they believe even if they do not do good works pleasing to God - was condemned as heresy. I do not recall it being "apostasy". The council of Trent session six is available here https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT6.HTM it calls some doctrine heresy but the word "apostate" is not used.
 

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The .. OC ... has moved entirely away from Christ and the Apostles.

When did this happen, MennoSota?

First century?

Fifth?

Tenth?

Fifteenth?

Tell me when and where and how...

IF you can do so...

Arsenios
 

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Yeh, well, I dont believe any of that mythology about a one true denomination in charge of the books which has never changed and is the only one Jesus had in mind. BUT I must also say that the Reformers knew something of the EOC, and Luther cited the Orthodox when debating against Romish errors. But I believe that the idea of just phoning the Ecumenical Patriarch up and talking with him about doctrine just was not possible in the early 1500s for any German.

Lutherans tried,and desired to enter into a theological debate with the Patriarch...

He offered to teach them the Faith that existed without change...

They preferred debate...

He said no - Write only for friendship...

That was it...

Here is a page about this exchange from both EO and Lutheran sources:

http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutheran-orthodox.html

Arsenios
 

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For some of the Reformation it would cause issues. Faith alone would not be faith alone (in the opinion of some) any longer. It would turn into some issue of "works righteousness", when I don't think that's what the passage has in mind.

I think that God inspired James' letter and had it preserved and made canonical holy scripture partly to head off heresies arising out of misreading Paul's letters. Saint Peter warned in his letters that what saint Paul wrote was difficult to understand and some unstable people [meaning people whose faith was not well grounded and stable] read his letters and twisted what was said to the ruin of their souls.
 
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