Justification

[MennoSota]

Yeah...apostolic succession...
Since Baptists trace themselves back to Jesus and the Jordan River, I guess those Apostles were solid Baptists...

 

[Andrew]

Yeah...apostolic succession...
Since Baptists trace themselves back to Jesus and the Jordan River, I guess those Apostles were solid Baptists...

So water baptism is a metaphor for being buried in Christ?

My church made it a big deal to be baptised in a tub and then joked that John didn't go around baptising with a spoon.
I'm not really good at joining the crowd but I did it without question, no regrets, it's purely symbolic but it's a big deal for churches to do it in front of a live audience as a means to justify.
My thought was "well he also didn't go around carrying the Jordan river either."
I do think that it gives you that physical experience of 'knowing' as long as it satisfies the 'spiritual', just accept it Menno, it isn't necessary to criminalize and almost demonize this practise.
It IS purely symbolic of the reason he was baptised in water in the first place, it was the custom for the Jewish culture to practise actual water baptism to become a Rabbi, which Jesus became.
What turns me off of Lutheran philosophy is the undeniable fact that Martin Luther on several occasions attacked his enemies (The Jew and the Catholic clergymen) which violates the greatest of all commandments of "Loving your enemies".
I discussed this before with Josiah who excused Martins behavior by stating something along that lines as "thats just how people were/talked in those days" and I still don't buy it because Jesus never talked that way but to warn certain men of a fate worse than death, not to threaten them with such such brutality.
This is also the case with early RCC burning protestants and heretics at the stake, Catholic radicalism as well as Lutheran radicalism in my eyes -are two beast out to rip Christianity to shreds NOT SAYING that it is the case today but it is how they 'complemented' each other in early times.
I may be all over the board in this post but I truly mean to emphasis on 'Loving and accepting your enemy' as taught by Christ.
We can argue about the bread and wine being Jesus literally and I can argue that Peter was literally a 'rock'. Lets appreciate and accept each others use in traditions of symbology by focusing more on Gods demand that we take his commandments literally.
I am sorry if I offend either side but I have always found that the 'works and justification' topics are a big slap in the face of the message of Christ and is mainly a means to charge the other by self centered righteousness and ego.
We are all brothers, even your neighbor (humanity) but if either side believes that they are swaying the other... it just sounds like maybe 'someone' is 'working' to 'save' the other and I just hate that.
All in all it's simply my opinion on this specific topic and has nothing to do with anyone personally, you all mean well, but for the record I just find this subject offensive to my brothers in faith.



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[Arsenios]

I believe Arsenios ... implies the Holy Spirit is not involved in baptism

Au contraire - The Holy Spirit is GIVEN in Baptism...

Remember Ananias with Saul? The Holy Spirit is given in the laying on of hands at Baptism...
Ananias filled Saul with the Holy Spirit...
And he healed his blindness...

The New Creation that we become in Baptism is the implacement of the Holy Spirit in our Hypostasis - This is the Christing of the Christian in Chrismation in the Anointing of the Holy Spirit in a person whose heart has just been purified in the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration... It is what the new Birth is all about... It is our entry into the Body of Christ...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Alright, so you believe the Great Commission is only for the 11. No one after that should ever Go, make disciples, teach, baptize or believe Jesus is with them always. Got it.

I love your imaginative projections...

We have a fundamental disagreement regarding scripture.

Well daaaah!

Actually Paul discussed this very thing, for some are Called to be Apostles, remember?

And do you remember what he said of them?

And then of you and me?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Yeah...apostolic succession...
Since Baptists trace themselves back to Jesus and the Jordan River, I guess those Apostles were solid Baptists...

No question!

A.

 

[Andrew]

Au contraire - The Holy Spirit is GIVEN in Baptism...

Remember Ananias with Saul? The Holy Spirit is given in the laying on of hands at Baptism...
Ananias filled Saul with the Holy Spirit...
And he healed his blindness...

The New Creation that we become in Baptism is the implacement of the Holy Spirit in our Hypostasis - This is the Christing of the Christian in Chrismation in the Anointing of the Holy Spirit in a person whose heart has just been purified in the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration... It is what the new Birth is all about... It is our entry into the Body of Christ...

Arsenios

This goes against my theology sir, you see I sit on my hands and just my brain alone justifies me, it baptises me and all that stuff in the name of Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit... Just please, dont touch me and water makes me nervous

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[Arsenios]

Yes, the 11 Apostles needed to obey the GC. According to Arsenios it only applies to those 11 and no one else.
All these milleniums and people have been doing what they were not commissioned to do, according to Arsenios.

What did the Scripture say?

Did you see some other number than 11 in that Scripture?

Actually, it is Christ Who Baptizes...

Using the hands of His Servants who are members of His Holy Body...

That is HOW Christ is the Baptizer, as John foretold, giving us the Holy Spirit...

And in the first years, the Gift of speaking foreign languages...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

This goes against my theology sir, you see I sit on my hands and just my brain alone justifies me, it baptises me and all that stuff in the name of Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit... Just please, dont touch me and water makes me nervous

I sense your Payne... Here: A small Balm...

Act 9:17-18 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus,
that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me,
that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

It is about apostolic succession but I do not think that Josiah has it right for all sorts of reasons not least being that he does not have a firm grasp of Catholic teaching and I doubt he has a grasp of Orthodox teaching.

 

[Lamb]

Au contraire - The Holy Spirit is GIVEN in Baptism...

Remember Ananias with Saul? The Holy Spirit is given in the laying on of hands at Baptism...
Ananias filled Saul with the Holy Spirit...
And he healed his blindness...

The New Creation that we become in Baptism is the implacement of the Holy Spirit in our Hypostasis - This is the Christing of the Christian in Chrismation in the Anointing of the Holy Spirit in a person whose heart has just been purified in the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration... It is what the new Birth is all about... It is our entry into the Body of Christ...

Arsenios

Yes, I believe the gift of the Holy Spirit is given in baptism...what I was talking about was a reference to one of your posts pages ago that said something that the Holy Spirit does not baptize.

 

[Josiah]

It is about apostolic succession but I do not think that Josiah has it right for all sorts of reasons not least being that he does not have a firm grasp of Catholic teaching and I doubt he has a grasp of Orthodox teaching.

I don't think that the RCC understanding of Apostolic Succession has a thing to do with it's condemnation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (you know, John 3:16) in narrow Justification. Personally, I think it being injected into this thread is yet another example of the common Catholic refusal to discuss the issue it split Christianity over, the issue it declared was apostate heresy, the issue of this thread. What we often see is a felt-need to evade that and discuss OTHER things (such as Sanctification, where we largely agree) or even unrelated things such as Apostolic Succession, Flat Earth, Male-Only Priesthood, church potlucks, etc. All good subjects, just not this one.

As for the Orthodox Church, I've never indicated what its position is on Justification, I only note that our Orthodox friend said that it is "essentially the same as the Lutheran one" which of course the RCC has condemned as apostate heresy for the past 500 years (which of course means the EOC is also guilty of apostate heresy on THE most important issue there is). I strongly suspect the EOC's view on Apostolic Succession is more similar to that of the RCC than the LCMS but that's 100% irrelevant to this subject; I simply noted that IF our Orthodox friend is correct that the Orthodox view on narrow Justification is "essentially the same as the Lutheran position" and since the RCC has officially declared the Lutheran position to be apostate heresy, ergo it seems unavoidable that the EOC is also teaching apostate heresy on this point, although I'm sure the RC Denomination has no desire to officially declare that.

 

[Josiah]

What turns me off of Lutheran philosophy is the undeniable fact that Martin Luther on several occasions attacked his enemies (The Jew and the Catholic clergymen) which violates the greatest of all commandments of "Loving your enemies".

[MENTION=387]DHoffmann[/MENTION]


I respectfully disagree with your premise, that a view is automatically and categorically WRONG if one who agrees with it is a sinner.

IMO, the view of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide in Justification (narrow) is TRUE because it is solidly biblical (and also in line with the ECF and Ecumenical Councils). That some (like me) who agree with it are sinners who at times reveal that by their lack of love does NOT in any sense make the "philosophy" (as you put it) - the teaching - ergo false. By your premise, we'd have to reject the concept of gravity because Newton said and did some bad things.

I discussed this before with Josiah who excused Martins behavior by stating something along that lines as "thats just how people were/talked in those days"

1. Truth is truth, regardless of whether those who hold to it sin.

2. NO ONE follows Martin Luther. Lutherans consider him to a a sinful bloat, a mere mortal, who put his pants on one leg at a time and who OFTEN sinned and CERTAINLY erred at times. He is not considered as a kind of infallible Pope whose words are ergo from the Mouth of Jesus and thus are unaccountable (in official matters). The writings of Luther are NOT regarded as normative or even descriptive of Lutheran teachings (well, a TINY percentage of his writings are part of the Lutheran Confessions but perhaps less than 0.0001 of them, and most of the Confessions are NOT from Luther).

3. I think that "both" sides handled the issues of the Reformation VERY badly and that 'both' sides have much they did and said wrong. Yes, the very polemic language (VERY COMMON IN THAT DAY ON ALL SIDES) offends us today with our milieu of radical political correctness and "Mr. Rogers-ism." No one denies that. For our sake in the 21st Century anyway, I wish Luther would have consistently been polite and respectful (he certainly was at times, but certainly was not at other times).

4. As for Luther and the Jews, read: http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?4707-Luther-and-the-Jews It's not the issue of this thread.



The issue before us is not Pope Leo X (or Alexander VI)..... it's not Martin Luther or Cardinal Cajetan or John Eck. It's Justification. And while it remains unknown what the Catholic position is on this, the Lutheran position is described in post #3 (it's John 3:16) and that position was officially declared to be apostate heresy and the Roman Catholic Church chose to split Christianity over that, so horrified by it. So WHATEVER the Catholic position has been since 1551, we know it MUST be radically different than the Lutheran one (or the RCC is also teaching apostate heresy). Note, the issue is NOT Sanctification (a point the RCC stressed) - the issue of what a CHRISTIAN, one WITH the divine gift of life - faith - justification, is called to do and the results thereof, no, the RCC stressed that's NOT the issue, rather Justification is (how one BECOMES a Christian, how one is ENTERED into this new relationship). As for the Orthodox position, all we have so far in this thread is a statement from our Orthodox friend that the EOC position is "essentially the same as the Lutheran one."



- Josiah



.

 

[Albion]

What turns me off of Lutheran philosophy is the undeniable fact that Martin Luther on several occasions attacked his enemies (The Jew and the Catholic clergymen) which violates the greatest of all commandments of "Loving your enemies".

I saw Steve Martin's movie, Leap of Faith, so...you know.

 

[MennoSota]

It is about apostolic succession but I do not think that Josiah has it right for all sorts of reasons not least being that he does not have a firm grasp of Catholic teaching and I doubt he has a grasp of Orthodox teaching.

No one, including all leaders in the RC and OC, has a firm grasp of Catholic or Orthodox teaching. The teachings are so convoluted and pretzel twisted that no one can make sense of the process. Double speak and contradictions abound in the RC and OC.

 

[MennoSota]

Au contraire - The Holy Spirit is GIVEN in Baptism...

Remember Ananias with Saul? The Holy Spirit is given in the laying on of hands at Baptism...
Ananias filled Saul with the Holy Spirit...
And he healed his blindness...

The New Creation that we become in Baptism is the implacement of the Holy Spirit in our Hypostasis - This is the Christing of the Christian in Chrismation in the Anointing of the Holy Spirit in a person whose heart has just been purified in the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration... It is what the new Birth is all about... It is our entry into the Body of Christ...

Arsenios

You have created a gospel from thin air. It is incompatible with scripture, but it places you as the sole controller over your salvation.
You choose baptism and the God must save you.
In no world is that ever God's Sovereign act, based solely upon God's choice to adopt you, redeem you, reconcile you, justify you, sanctify you and ultimately save you.
Instead you teach that it's all about you choosing to be baptized in your denomination and thus God is forced to act on your behalf. It's a teaching that is amazingly perverted.
Second, the Spirit came upon people in multiple different ways in the early church. There was no norm or protocol that God chose. You are pushing a requirement that God does not ever require.

 

[Arsenios]

Yes, I believe the gift of the Holy Spirit is given in baptism...what I was talking about was a reference to one of your posts pages ago that said something that the Holy Spirit does not baptize.

Both of those statements are true:

The Holy Spirit is given in Baptism by Christ...
The Holy Spirit does not baptize into Christ...

And we can say more:

Christ baptizes IN the Holy Spirit
John baptized in water unto repentance...
Then John baptized Christ...
John himself was never baptized into Christ...
Christ was not baptized into Christ...
So WHY was Christ baptized?
To establish Baptism INTO Christ for us who follow Him...
But John did not lie when he said:

Joh 1:33
κἀγὼ οὐκ ᾔδειν αὐτόν,
And I (myself) did not know Him

ἀλλ᾿ ὁ πέμψας με βαπτίζειν ἐν ὕδατι,
But the one having sent me to be baptizing in water

ἐκεῖνός μοι εἶπεν·
That same one to me said:

ἐφ᾿ ὃν ἂν ἴδῃς τὸ Πνεῦμα καταβαῖνον
Upon whomever you should see the Spirit descending

καὶ μένον ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν,
And remaining upon Him

οὗτός ἐστιν
This One it is

ὁ βαπτίζων ἐν Πνεύματι ῾Αγίῳ.
Who (is) baptizing IN the Holy Spirit.

So my question to those who imagine that it is the Holy Spirit Who is DOING the baptizing is this:
WHOM does Holy Scripture SAY is baptizing IN the Holy Spirit?
Nowhere in Scripture do we find Jesus himself baptizing...
That means He is baptizing everywhere His Servants in Him are baptizing...
Christ is the ONLY one who even CAN baptize YOU INTO Himself...
And He did so when Ananias baptized Saul...
It was NOT Ananias the man alone baptizing...
It was Ananias Servant-of-God Baptizing...
That means Christ Baptizing...
Because Ananias is a MEMBER of the Body of Christ...

You who imagine baptism by man to be Baptism into Christ and reject that notion are RIGHT...
But when the theanthropic Ekklesia baptizes, it is not mere man who is baptizing...
It is Christ baptizing YOU into Himself...

And when YOU have been Baptized INTO Christ BY Christ, then YOU are JUSTIFIED BY Christ...

Re-read the above!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I saw Steve Martin's movie, Leap of Faith, so...you know.

I wanna see it!

Martin is one funny dude!

How did I ever miss that one?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

No one, including all leaders in the RC and OC, has a firm grasp of Catholic or Orthodox teaching. The teachings are so convoluted and pretzel twisted that no one can make sense of the process. Double speak and contradictions abound in the RC and OC.

Thank you for your prayers...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

I wanna see it!

Martin is one funny dude!

How did I ever miss that one?

Arsenios

It has been called his most underappreciated film. Trust me, you would like it.

 

[Arsenios]

You have created a gospel from thin air.

The account of Saul's baptism by Ananias is straight out of the Book of the Acts of the Holy Apostles...

It is incompatible with scripture,

Acts IS Scripture...

but it places you as the sole controller over your salvation.

Fake News!

Here is the Truth:

Fully responsible, yes...
With no control at all...

God is Faithful...

You choose baptism and the God must save you.

Fake News!

Here is the Truth:

God Baptizes, I only repent...
Baptism is into God because it is into Christ and done BY Christ...

In no world is that ever God's Sovereign act, based solely upon God's choice to adopt you, redeem you, reconcile you, justify you, sanctify you and ultimately save you.

God alone CAN enter YOU INTO His Holy Body, the Ekklesia, and MAKE YOU a Member of His Own Body...
And that IS Justification...

Instead you teach that it's all about you choosing to be baptized in your denomination and thus God is forced to act on your behalf.

Fake News!

Here is the truth:

The Great Commission was only to the 11...
They established apostolic Churches...
The Ekklesia of our Lord...

It's a teaching that is amazingly perverted.

Even Saul was blind until Ananias healed his blindness...
So there is hope yet!

Second, the Spirit came upon people in multiple different ways in the early church. There was no norm or protocol that God chose. You are pushing a requirement that God does not ever require.

The Spirit came upon people in the OT too...
That's why the Jews were so Sign-addicted...
We are discussing Justification IN Christ BY Christ...

Arsenios