Justification

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Arsenios

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No. The opening words are, "Jesus said TO HIS DISCIPLES...."

His disciples would be the ones discipling the God-hating nations, so of course He would be instructing them in this teaching, which applies to all men...

And of course, the only ones who can follow are those who are alive...

Of which tree did Adam eat the fruit? Was it not the Tree of Good AND evil?

dead people don't follow the God they deny, reject and repudiate.

They walk in the legacy of partaking of both Good AND evil...

Unbelievers don't deny themselves, they deny Christ.

I sure did - Denied both Christ and self, and found Christ not looking for Him...

Not until people are alive and with faith and with the Holy Spirit is it even POSSIBLE for someone to deny themselves and follow Christ.

Anyone can deny himself - The unsaved do it all the time... Athletes enter into the discipline of their sport - A fabulous exercise of self-denial to know victory... Likewise those seeking Christ but not yet knowing Him, thst they should know Him...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Oh, come on, we have tea! :D

Tea is un-American!
Coffee is how Christians stay awake for all-night vigils!
I mean, coffee is almost a sacrament...

What's with this tea business?

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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I also see the first response was an immediate 'cut-and-paste' that has been used multiple times in multiple threads, rather than a discussion on the OP

I noticed that as well - It felt kinda cheesy and not very genuine...

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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I wouldn't say this is true at all. Maybe re-read the OP. It differs from traditional Protestant understanding, but states the POV nonetheless and should have some bearing on the conversation here.

from the OP:



See here also: http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5265-Justification&p=129221#post129221

I also see the first response was an immediate 'cut-and-paste' that has been used multiple times in multiple threads, rather than a discussion on the OP

The advantage that your reply has, brother ImaginaryDay2, is that you read and apparently understood the first post in this thread and other posts that offer Catholic insight into the use and meaning of the word "justification" so you're commenting civilly without polemics about why those who differ from you are all wrong and tending towards evil. That is what I asked for and I thank you for complying. God bless you for it. I pray that others will see your fine example and seek to do likewise.
 

Arsenios

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I reckon that in the west Catholics have all the fun :)

Well, they seriously have the most-by-far Churches!

We are building ours as we speak - How many Christians are building Churches these days in the west?

And we do all night vigil Services for major Feast days...

So we are not entirely excluded from all the, er... "fun"...:)

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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Consideration of worldview would go a long way in this thread, I think. obviously, the pov's expressed here are not going to be similar to our own, and to argue ad nauseam will only prevent us from learning and growing in our fellowship with others. It might be worth noting that my Lutheran congregation shares building space with an EO mission. So far, we've not gone to war, but recognize one another as brothers in Christ. If we'd read between the lines of our respective points, I think we'd see we're not that far off.

Imo, it's pointless asking "who is the Savior" and suggesting with it that one who might be "synergistic" (and I'm not sure that EO can be neatly compartmentalized like that) deny it is Christ. Likewise, Monergists in no way reject that we have a part - one here has even suggested that sanctification might be what we do (i.e. it is the "response").

Spiritual terms and truths are not so neatly placed into baskets that they are discernible and easily digested.

In practise nearly every Protestant lives like a Catholic Christian or an Orthodox Christian. All Christians believe in Jesus Christ, all walk with him in faith and in obedience and all hope for heaven and final rest from constantly warring against the wickedness we combat in this world and the wickedness we discover in ourselves. That is what justification is.
 

MoreCoffee

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Well, they seriously have the most-by-far Churches!

We are building ours as we speak - How many Christians are building Churches these days in the west?

And we do all night vigil Services for major Feast days...

So we are not entirely excluded from all the, er... "fun"...:)

Arsenios

We do have many many parishes and most have buildings and those that do not yet will, with the help of the brethren in the faith and by their own generosity and efforts, acquire a building soon, God willing. And the fun is partly in our worship - because what can bring greater joy than to serve God in the praises of his wonderful grace - and partly in our life together as the people of God. We hope and pray that all will join us in the last day when God both reveals what is in the hearts of men and women and also rewards those who are in Christ.

But the Irish Coffee is a fringe benefit that we really enjoy in this world :disgonbegood:
 

Arsenios

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IMO, you need to decide who the Savior is.

OK - Does this mean that I have not made this decision?

All will be a blur until it is acknowledged that the dead are dead and the unbelieving who thus deny Christ (and uphold self) are dead and thus unbelieving and deny Christ.

We all have to start somewhere, do we not? Are you really and truly proposing that we begin already justified in Christ?

You see, repenting is available to all - And most begin from a personal condition of profoundly experienced need... "A heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise..." So it is usually only AFTER exhausting one's personal resources that one encounters God's Grace and finds hope... David even knew God's Salvation, and fell to Bathsheba...

The Jewish - Muslim - Hindu - Buddhist "answer" is that self needs saving but that self is the Savior of self (albeit with divine help). The Christian answer is that self needs saving and that Jesus is the Savior.

And Christ GIVES Salvation, and nobody seems to want to address my question of what it IS that Christ Gives that IS Salvation?

Justification is the making right of a person with God, of establishing that person in right relationship with God - It is progressive... Overcoming one sin at a time, and getting more right with God with each overcoming of sin, and each carries God's Glory, from Glory to Glory... Revelation speaks of those overcoming being glorified in various ways in the 7 Churches...

Sanctification is the Presence of the Holy Spirit leading one's Walk in Christ... We do not see much of it these days...

The ancient creed professes that God is the GIVER of life... not the "offerer" or "helper" or "meets us half way so that the dead give themselves HALF of life and God gives them the other half." I think it would help if you decide where we see the Savior, the Giver of Life - on the Cross or in the mirror?

IF we obey Christ, we TAKE UP OUR OWN CROSS... Because we are following Christ, and make up in our own flesh what is left behind of the afflictions of Christ... For Christ is WITHIN us... We see God within in purity of heart, and we see Him without through the same purity... As babes in Christ, we do not see much... For our purification of the heart in repentance has only just begun...

Sanctification is the RESPONSE to justification; it is the living thus living; it is those loved now loving ("Just as I have FIRST loved you"); it is the living growing and maturing, becoming more Christ-like. It's another subject for another day and thread.

Does nobody know that what God gives us, the Grace that He gives us that is our Salvation, is God Himself? He is the ONLY one who CAN give Himself to us, because He is the only one Who HAS Himself to GIVE... It is the JOINING of man TO God - The CON-JOINING of man with God - that IS the New Creation that we ARE in Christ, and in the discipling of repentance unto the purification of the heart, we progressively see more and more clearly as we gradually become more and more God-bearing in our walk as we acquire the Holy Spirit of God according to our purification's progressing...

It's a big deal...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Do the Reformed believe that we are SAVED by Christ's Righteousness?

Arsenios
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Tea is un-American!
Coffee is how Christians stay awake for all-night vigils!
I mean, coffee is almost a sacrament...

What's with this tea business?

Arsenios
Yes, and Amen!
However, our friend MoreCoffee doesn't drink coffee.
But now he drinks Irish Coffee...? :thinking:
 

ImaginaryDay2

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But the Irish Coffee is a fringe benefit that we really enjoy in this world :disgonbegood:

Allright, you're just a discerning coffee drinker. I see... I think...
 

MoreCoffee

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Yes, and Amen!
However, our friend MoreCoffee doesn't drink coffee.
But now he drinks Irish Coffee...? :thinking:

I usually put Scotch in my coffee so technically that would make it Hibernian coffee I guess :disgonbegood:
 

Josiah

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His disciples would be the ones discipling the God-hating nations, so of course He would be instructing them in this teaching, which applies to all men...

Yes. DISCIPLES (Christians, the Justified, the Living) can and should do things (live, for example). But Jesus didn't say this to the dead, to those who deny Christ (can cannot do otherwise), to those who do not follow Christ (they repudiate and reject and deny Christ).

The dead don't live. Only the living live, indeed, only the living CAN live.



Anyone can deny himself - The unsaved do it all the time...


Perhaps.... but they can't follow Christ. Nor would they - the reject and deny Him.


Likewise those seeking Christ

No one does. Only those who have faith, have the Holy Spirit, are alive.
 

Josiah

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In practise nearly every Protestant lives like a Catholic Christian or an Orthodox Christian. All Christians believe in Jesus Christ, all walk with him in faith and in obedience and all hope for heaven and final rest from constantly warring against the wickedness we combat in this world and the wickedness we discover in ourselves. That is what justification is.



As I've noted to you since you joined here, therein lies one major aspect of our "problem."


For Protestants, that is NOT justification. Justification is people once dead and now alive, one enemies and now children of God, once void of the Spirit and now filled with the Spirit, once in condemnation and now forgiven. Every Catholic teacher I ever had insists this happens because WE accomplish it; essentially we save ourselves. Luther and Calvin retorted that Jesus is the Savior and thus Jesus does the Savior. They were excommunicated for saying that.


For Protestants, what you speak of is a different but inseparable and equally important point: Living now that we are alive, loving now that we are loved, serving now that we are served. Walking by faith, incorporating the power and direction of the Spirit in order to grow increasingly Christ-like, responding to His Call to Christians to be "perfect as I am perfect..... love even as I FIRST loved you.... " From the Protestant perspective, your point of "then walk in faith and obedience" is technically hi-jacking the thread since this thread is not about Sanctification (or even Soteriology or even the Catholic definition of salvation) it was very specific: Justification (it's how you chose to frame it, KNOWING that Protestants view this as the different relationship we have with God).


For Protestants, PART (just part, lol) of the issue Lutheran/Reformed/Anglican Christian have with popular Catholicis is the way it takes realities and misapplies them, taking DIFFERENT things and forcing them together as one thing, taking good things, placing them in a mixer with a LOT of water to water it all way down, then pressing "HI" for a few centuries until what is poured out is all entangled, confused, mixed-up, blended leaving Catholics entirely confused in the very doctrine where Christians should be least confused and most clear. It seems obvious that teachings we received such as "God helps those who help themselves..... Jesus opened the gate to heaven but it's entirely up to you to walk through those gates by what you do.... we save ourselves by adequating utilizing the gifts of the Catholic Church.... etc." are clearly wrong when applied to Justification (because they contradict the Chief Article of Christianity - that Jesus is the Savior), although they all apply to Sanctification. By popular Catholicism confusing DIFFERENT things, it destroys the very heart of Christianity itself and upholds a soteriology remarkably similar to Judaism - Islam - Hinduism (some forms of), that we gotta save ourselves by tapping the strength God gives. In the words of Scripture, this makes "Jesus in vain." From the Catholic perspective, what Luther and Calvin said (John 3:16) as I describe in posts 2, 3 and 8 here in this thread, is the worse heresy ever, anathema, apostate, SO bad as to necessitate the RC Denomination split itself once again, loosing about one-third of its members- all to protect the idea that Justification and Santctification are the same thing and that "walking in Christ" is how we come to spiritual life thus making the Incarnation, the Cross, the Resurrection meaningless since WE accomplish it by what WE do. Luther disagreed with that - and the RCC was SO horrified by his idea that Jesus is the Savior that it excommunicated him and repudiated his view as anathema, apostate, heresy.



A blessed Easter season to all.



- Josiah



.
 
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Confessional Lutheran

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I usually put Scotch in my coffee so technically that would make it Hibernian coffee I guess :disgonbegood:

Wouldn't Scotch make it Caledonian coffee?? Sorry, I took and passed the ELCEs yesterday and I'm still kind of excited about it.
 

Josiah

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From the Protestant perspective.....


Justification.... Sanctification....

There are TWO DIFFERENT issue here: Justification and Sanctification (narrow sense, both). BOTH are essential..... BOTH are inseparable..... but they are not the same thing, and pretending they are, forcing them together has the product of destroying the Gospel and Christianity.


Let me use this analogy:

FIRST: On January 23, 1988, I was born. I was GIVEN life - the miracle, the wonderful, mysterious GIFT of life (we might agree that actually happened about 9 months earlier, but let's proceed). At that point, I became alive. I became a human being - with all that means, biologically and spiritually, all that means in terms of God and me. GIFT. G.I.F.T. This purely, solely, only, exclusively by mercy since prior to that, I did NOTHING. I thought nothing. I willed nothing. I sought nothing. I desired nothing. NO good works. GIFT. G.I.F.T. Mercy. M.E.R.C.Y. On January 23, 1988 - I was removed from my mother (C-Section) - unbreathing, unconscience - I had NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING. N.O.T.H.I.N.G. Gift. Mercy. No merits. No works. No will. Nothing in or from me. GIFT. MERCY. Someone ELSE is to be credited. Entirely. Wholly. Completely. MONERGISTIC. Life is mine - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT. I am a human being, with all that means - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT.

In the same way, God saved me (what Protestants mean here is justification - narrow sense). God GAVE me spiritual life, God caused me to be born AGAIN, now not only with physical life but with spiritual life, now I am not only the child of my parents but a child of God. This CHANGES my relationship to God, as a result solely, only, exclusively because of God's mercy, grace, favor; solely, only, exclusively because of what CHRIST has done as THE Savior; solely, only, exclusively because God GAVE me the GIFT of faith in Christ as my Savior: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. We believe this is MONERGISTIC, because CHRIST is the Savior - not me, not you. Protestants agree with the Ancient Creed that God is the GIVER of life (not Offerer but GIVER). I'm NOT the Savior, I've not the Life Giver - in whole or in part - because the job is taken and He didn't blow it. What makes me a CHRISTIAN is that God's merciful, gracious GIFT of faith means I'm looking to CHRIST as THE Savior, not in the mirror

Jesus is the Savior. "This is NOT your own doing but is the gift of God." Jesus is the Savior, not me. Life comes from the one on the Cross, not the one in the mirror. John 3:16. This, of course, was officially repudiated by the RC Denomination as apostate heresy, anathematized, repudiated so strongly as to justify the RCC splitting itself again and doing so over this idea. It is NOT a case of dead SELF, apart from God and without the Spirit, somehow taping into the "gas" God gives in order to slowly "save" self in a SYNERGISTIC process - almost never complete in one lifetime and so (as in Hinduism) more time is supplied to finish the job, justification being a JOINT EFFORT: Jesus doing what He can (perhaps) but it's insuffient, inadequate, He fails as a Savior - so we come to the rescue to help save Him from being a failure by supplying what He could not: Jesus does what He could (but it's inadequate) so WE help Him but adding the really important part, the part that actually results in justification. In the view of Protestants, AT THE VERY LEAST, popular Catholicism is confusing DIFFERENT ISSUES: man and God, law and gospel, santification and justification. OR perhaps Catholicism not speaking of Justification AT ALL, not knowning anything about it, and just talking about Sanctification (while calling it Justification).



SECOND: Almost immediately after being born (well, maybe some months later, lol), my parents, my society and yes God Himsef called me to GROW. To mature. To become more loving, more caring, more righteous, more ethical. Now alive, I am to LIVE. Now His own, I am to live as such. Now a part of His family, I am to live and serve as such. THIS is a process (unlike my conception). THIS is synergistic (unlike conception). GROWING to be more God like. GROWING in the directions that my parents, my society, my God call me: "Thou shalt be HOLY just as the Lord God is holy." "Thou shalt be PERFECT just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." "LOVE in exactly the same way as Christ loved us on the Cross." High callings! I'm not "there" yet. I'm still GROWING (well, I'd LIKE to say always growing..... sometimes I'm not, sometimes I even retreat). And I do so in large part because of God's EMPOWERING, not due to some innate homo sapien ability. Yes..... in a few cases, the Bible also calls this "grace" but the CONTEXT tells us this is different, here it means "strength" or "empowering". It is still ours by mercy (we don't DESIRE anything from Him), but here it means strength. This growing up, this discipleship, this CHRISTIAN-walk is something a CHRISTIAN does, not something that makes one a Christian; it is the RESULT of justification not the cause. My being nice to my neighbor is not what causes me to have physical life, having physical life enables me to be nice to my neighbor. What I do as a growing, maturing, developing man is not what makes me a homo sapien nor worthy of being given life.

The Living living is what Protestants refer to as "Sanctification." It is stressed in Protestantism at least as much as in Catholicism, but it is not looked to as what brings about life but what flows from it, not what renders Christ meaningless and void but what flows from Christ as we grow to become more like our Savior - REFLECTING His heart, His righteousness, His servanthood, His ministry. We don't love SO THAT God will love us and thus give us life.... God loved us and gave us life so that we will now love; "Blessed to a a blessing" to share the usual Protestant proverb. In Sanctification, Jesus is our Lord...and we progress because we HAVE the Holy Spirit (not trying to very slowly buy Him), empowering and directing us.

Mixing, entangling, blending, confusing these two things tends to lead to a destruction of the Gospel (and thus Christianity) where the Savior is not Jesus. Because Sanctification IS synergistic, blending this with Justification means this is then applied equally to Justification thus rendering Jesus irrelevant (or perhaps the Helper or Possibility-Maker rather than Savior). Because Sanctification IS progressive (and never fully achieved), blending this with Justification means this is applied equally to Justification so that Jesus doesn't actually save at all and we are left with uncertainty and the HOPE that someday (if we do our part good enough) we might come to life, gain faith and the Spirit, and have the possibility of living. It's this entangling that leads to the problems Protestants see.



Pax


- Josiah




.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Wouldn't Scotch make it Caledonian coffee?? Sorry, I took and passed the ELCEs yesterday and I'm still kind of excited about it.

Hibernia is Ireland, so whoops. I ought to have said Caledonia and therefore Caledonian coffee.

Just to help folk along I say Justification and you say something else but I mean being made right with God being made just not merely declared to be righteous but actually becoming like Jesus Christ by being incorporated in his body.
 

Arsenios

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Do the Reformed believe that we are SAVED by Christ's Righteousness?

Do they deny that becoming right with God is an ongoing work of repentance?

Arsenios
 
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