Justification

[Arsenios]

Yes, and Amen!
However, our friend MoreCoffee doesn't drink coffee.
But now he drinks Irish Coffee...? :thinking:

Maybe he started doing the Service of the All Night Vigil...

A.

 

[Arsenios]

I usually put Scotch in my coffee so technically that would make it Hibernian coffee I guess :disgonbegood:

So much for my now falsified theory of the All Night Vigil Services...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Yes. DISCIPLES (Christians, the Justified, the Living) can and should do things (live, for example). But Jesus didn't say this to the dead, to those who deny Christ (can cannot do otherwise), to those who do not follow Christ (they repudiate and reject and deny Christ).

The dead don't live. Only the living live, indeed, only the living CAN live.

Perhaps.... but they can't follow Christ. Nor would they - the reject and deny Him.

No one does. Only those who have faith, have the Holy Spirit, are alive.

How do you then avoid the charge that conversion comes after Salvation?

John came preaching the Kingdom by repenting from sin...

You come preaching the Gift Salvation/Justification so that we CAN repent, not mentioning the Kingdom...

Can you see my dillemma?

Whom am I to believe?

Then came Christ after John's beheading preaching:

"Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

Whom should I believe, I say!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Do the Reformed believe that we are saved by Christ's Righteousness?

Righteousness is the Fruit of Virtue...

Ungodliness is the fruit of sin...

Is Christ's Righteousness imparted to us without us acquiring virtue?

Or is it but (fictionally) imputed to us who never have to try to acquire virtue...

In the Orthodox Faith, theology is practical, you see...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

In practise nearly every Protestant lives like a Catholic Christian or an Orthodox Christian. All Christians believe in Jesus Christ, all walk with him in faith and in obedience and all hope for heaven and final rest from constantly warring against the wickedness we combat in this world and the wickedness we discover in ourselves. That is what justification is.

Protestants worship idols like the RC and EO 'do?
No, your definition of justification is entirely contrary to scripture. Your pov says that you are justified by your works. That pov is wrong and not scripturally sound.

 

[Josiah]

From the Protestant perspective.....


Justification.... Sanctification....

There are TWO DIFFERENT issue here: Justification and Sanctification (narrow sense, both). BOTH are essential..... BOTH are inseparable..... but they are not the same thing, and pretending they are, forcing them together has the product of destroying the Gospel and Christianity.


Let me use this analogy:

FIRST: On January 23, 1988, I was born. I was GIVEN life - the miracle, the wonderful, mysterious GIFT of life (we might agree that actually happened about 9 months earlier, but let's proceed). At that point, I became alive. I became a human being - with all that means, biologically and spiritually, all that means in terms of God and me. GIFT. G.I.F.T. This purely, solely, only, exclusively by mercy since prior to that, I did NOTHING. I thought nothing. I willed nothing. I sought nothing. I desired nothing. NO good works. GIFT. G.I.F.T. Mercy. M.E.R.C.Y. On January 23, 1988 - I was removed from my mother (C-Section) - unbreathing, unconscience - I had NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING. N.O.T.H.I.N.G. Gift. Mercy. No merits. No works. No will. Nothing in or from me. GIFT. MERCY. Someone ELSE is to be credited. Entirely. Wholly. Completely. MONERGISTIC. Life is mine - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT. I am a human being, with all that means - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT.

In the same way, God saved me (what Protestants mean here is justification - narrow sense). God GAVE me spiritual life, God caused me to be born AGAIN, now not only with physical life but with spiritual life, now I am not only the child of my parents but a child of God. This CHANGES my relationship to God, as a result solely, only, exclusively because of God's mercy, grace, favor; solely, only, exclusively because of what CHRIST has done as THE Savior; solely, only, exclusively because God GAVE me the GIFT of faith in Christ as my Savior: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. We believe this is MONERGISTIC, because CHRIST is the Savior - not me, not you. Protestants agree with the Ancient Creed that God is the GIVER of life (not Offerer but GIVER). I'm NOT the Savior, I've not the Life Giver - in whole or in part - because the job is taken and He didn't blow it. What makes me a CHRISTIAN is that God's merciful, gracious GIFT of faith means I'm looking to CHRIST as THE Savior, not in the mirror

Jesus is the Savior. "This is NOT your own doing but is the gift of God." Jesus is the Savior, not me. Life comes from the one on the Cross, not the one in the mirror. John 3:16. This, of course, was officially repudiated by the RC Denomination as apostate heresy, anathematized, repudiated so strongly as to justify the RCC splitting itself again and doing so over this idea. It is NOT a case of dead SELF, apart from God and without the Spirit, somehow taping into the "gas" God gives in order to slowly "save" self in a SYNERGISTIC process - almost never complete in one lifetime and so (as in Hinduism) more time is supplied to finish the job, justification being a JOINT EFFORT: Jesus doing what He can (perhaps) but it's insuffient, inadequate, He fails as a Savior - so we come to the rescue to help save Him from being a failure by supplying what He could not: Jesus does what He could (but it's inadequate) so WE help Him but adding the really important part, the part that actually results in justification. In the view of Protestants, AT THE VERY LEAST, popular Catholicism is confusing DIFFERENT ISSUES: man and God, law and gospel, santification and justification. OR perhaps Catholicism not speaking of Justification AT ALL, not knowning anything about it, and just talking about Sanctification (while calling it Justification).



SECOND: Almost immediately after being born (well, maybe some months later, lol), my parents, my society and yes God Himself called me to GROW. To mature. To become more loving, more caring, more righteous, more ethical. Now alive, I am to LIVE. To become more and more like the One who saved me and gave me life. Now His own, I am to live as such. Now a part of His family, I am to live and serve as such. THIS is a process (unlike my conception). THIS is synergistic (unlike conception). GROWING to be more God like. GROWING in the directions that my parents, my society, my God call me: "Thou shalt be HOLY just as the Lord God is holy." "Thou shalt be PERFECT just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." "LOVE in exactly the same way as Christ loved us on the Cross." High callings! I'm not "there" yet. I'm still GROWING (well, I'd LIKE to say always growing..... sometimes I'm not, sometimes I even retreat). And I do so in large part because of God's EMPOWERING, not due to some innate homo sapiens ability. Yes..... in a few cases, the Bible also calls this "grace" but the CONTEXT tells us this is different, here it means "strength" or "empowering". It is still ours by mercy (we don't DESIRE anything from Him), but here it means strength. This growing up, this discipleship, this CHRISTIAN-walk is something a CHRISTIAN does, not something that makes one a Christian; it is the RESULT of justification not the cause. My being nice to my neighbor is not what causes me to have physical life, having physical life enables me to be nice to my neighbor. What I do as a growing, maturing, developing man is not what makes me a homo sapiens nor worthy of being given life.

The Living living is what Protestants refer to as "Sanctification." It is stressed in Protestantism at least as much as in Catholicism, but it is not looked to as what brings about life but what flows from it, not what renders Christ meaningless and void but what flows from Christ as we grow to become more like our Savior - REFLECTING His heart, His righteousness, His servanthood, His ministry. We don't love SO THAT God will love us and thus give us life.... God loved us and gave us life so that we will now love; "Blessed to a a blessing" to share the usual Protestant proverb. In Sanctification, Jesus is our Lord...and we progress because we HAVE the Holy Spirit (not trying to very slowly buy Him), empowering and directing us.


Mixing, entangling, blending, confusing these two things tends to lead to a destruction of the Gospel (and thus Christianity) where the Savior is not Jesus. Because Sanctification IS synergistic, blending this with Justification means this is then applied equally to Justification thus rendering Jesus irrelevant (or perhaps the Helper or Possibility-Maker rather than Savior). Because Sanctification IS progressive (and never fully achieved), blending this with Justification means this is applied equally to Justification so that Jesus doesn't actually save at all and we are left with uncertainty and the HOPE that someday (if we do our part good enough) we might come to life, gain faith and the Spirit, and have the possibility of living. It's this entangling that leads to the problems Protestants see.


.

How do you then avoid the charge that conversion comes after Salvation?

I don't recall anyone "charging" that..... Actually, Protestants tend to use the words "justification" and "sanctification" (as I did). In popular use, many Protestants TEND to use the word "salvation" to mean "justification" and words like "discipleship" to mean Sanctification. "Conversion" is not a word I've heard much, but when I have, it's referring to both - justification and then sanctification - since both are about a change.

I do hold that Sanctification (narrow) follows Justification (narrow) since one can't live until one is alive. But again, how GOD "cranks out" all this is a point of "mystery" to Lutherans - we only proclaim what the Ancient Creed does (as well as the Council of Orange and of course Scripture) that God is the GIVER of life.

You come preaching the Gift Salvation/Justification so that we CAN repent, not mentioning the Kingdom...

No. I come preaching Sanctification AT LEAST as loudly as Catholics.... and regard it as essential and inseparable from Justification. Just not the same thing. Read the quote from me.



A blessed Easter season to you and yours....



- Josiah




.

 

[atpollard]

Do the Reformed believe that we are saved by Christ's Righteousness?

Arsenios

Reading this topic has been depressing.
Since no one else will answer you, here is what the Reformed Theology teaches about salvation in the version that I like best (because it is easy to read).

HEIDELBERG CATECHISM
INTRODUCTION
Lord's Day 1

Q&A 1
Q. What is your only comfort in life and in death?
A. That I am not my own,1 but belong—body and soul, in life and in death2—to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ.3

He has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood,4 and has set me free from the tyranny of the devil.5 He also watches over me in such a way6 that not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my Father in heaven;7 in fact, all things must work together for my salvation.8

Because I belong to him, Christ, by his Holy Spirit, assures me of eternal life9 and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him.10

1 1 Cor. 6:19-20
2 Rom. 14:7-9
3 1 Cor. 3:23; Titus 2:14
4 1 Pet. 1:18-19; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:2
5 John 8:34-36; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 3:1-11
6 John 6:39-40; 10:27-30; 2 Thess. 3:3; 1 Pet. 1:5
7 Matt. 10:29-31; Luke 21:16-18
8 Rom. 8:28
9 Rom. 8:15-16; 2 Cor. 1:21-22; 5:5; Eph. 1:13-14
10 Rom. 8:1-17

Q&A 2
Q. What must you know to live and die in the joy of this comfort?
A. Three things: first, how great my sin and misery are;1 second, how I am set free from all my sins and misery;2 third, how I am to thank God for such deliverance.3

1 Rom. 3:9-10; 1 John 1:10
2 John 17:3; Acts 4:12; 10:43
3 Matt. 5:16; Rom. 6:13; Eph. 5:8-10; 2 Tim. 2:15; 1 Pet. 2:9-10

PART I: MISERY
Lord's Day 2

Q&A 3
Q. How do you come to know your misery?
A. The law of God tells me.1

1 Rom. 3:20; 7:7-25

Q&A 4
Q. What does God's law require of us?
A. Christ teaches us this in summary in Matthew 22:37-40:

"'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'1 This is the greatest and first commandment.

"And a second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'2

"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

1 Deut. 6:5
2 Lev. 19:18

Q&A 5
Q. Can you live up to all this perfectly?
A. No.1 I have a natural tendency to hate God and my neighbor.2

1 Rom. 3:9-20, 23; 1 John 1:8, 10
2 Gen. 6:5; Jer. 17:9; Rom. 7:23-24; 8:7; Eph. 2:1-3; Titus 3:3

Lord's Day 3

Q&A 6
Q. Did God create people so wicked and perverse?
A. No. God created them good1 and in his own image,2 that is, in true righteousness and holiness,3 so that they might truly know God their creator,4 love him with all their heart, and live with God in eternal happiness, to praise and glorify him.5

1 Gen. 1:31
2 Gen. 1:26-27
3 Eph. 4:24
4 Col. 3:10
5 Ps. 8

Q&A 7
Q. Then where does this corrupt human nature come from?
A. The fall and disobedience of our first parents, Adam and Eve, in Paradise.1 This fall has so poisoned our nature2 that we are all conceived and born in a sinful condition.3

1 Gen. 3
2 Rom. 5:12, 18-19
3 Ps. 51:5

Q&A 8
Q. But are we so corrupt that we are totally unable to do any good and inclined toward all evil?
A. Yes,1 unless we are born again by the Spirit of God.2

1 Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Job 14:4; Isa. 53:6
2 John 3:3-5

Lord's Day 4

Q&A 9
Q. But doesn't God do us an injustice by requiring in his law what we are unable to do?
A. No, God created human beings with the ability to keep the law.1 They, however, provoked by the devil2 in willful disobedience,3 robbed themselves and all their descendants of these gifts.4

1 Gen. 1:31; Eph. 4:24
2 Gen. 3:13; John 8:44
3 Gen. 3:6
4 Rom. 5:12, 18, 19

Q&A 10
Q. Does God permit such disobedience and rebellion to go unpunished?
A. Certainly not. God is terribly angry with the sin we are born with as well as the sins we personally commit.

As a just judge, God will punish them both now and in eternity,1 having declared: "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law."2

1 Ex. 34:7; Ps. 5:4-6; Nah. 1:2; Rom. 1:18; Eph. 5:6; Heb. 9:27
2 Gal. 3:10; Deut. 27:26

Q&A 11
Q. But isn't God also merciful?
A. God is certainly merciful,1 but also just.2 God's justice demands that sin, committed against his supreme majesty, be punished with the supreme penalty—eternal punishment of body and soul.3

1 Ex. 34:6-7; Ps. 103:8-9
2 Ex. 34:7; Deut. 7:9-11; Ps. 5:4-6; Heb. 10:30-31
3 Matt. 25:35-46

PART II: DELIVERANCE
Lord's Day 5

Q&A 12
Q. According to God's righteous judgment we deserve punishment both now and in eternity: how then can we escape this punishment and return to God's favor?
A. God requires that his justice be satisfied.1 Therefore the claims of this justice must be paid in full, either by ourselves or by another.2

1 Ex. 23:7; Rom. 2:1-11
2 Isa. 53:11; Rom. 8:3-4

Q&A 13
Q. Can we make this payment ourselves?
A. Certainly not. Actually, we increase our debt every day.1

1 Matt. 6:12; Rom. 2:4-5

Q&A 14
Q. Can another creature—any at all—pay this debt for us?
A. No. To begin with, God will not punish any other creature for what a human is guilty of.1 Furthermore, no mere creature can bear the weight of God's eternal wrath against sin and deliver others from it.2

1 Ezek. 18:4, 20; Heb. 2:14-18
2 Ps. 49:7-9; 130:3

Q&A 15
Q. What kind of mediator and deliverer should we look for then?
A. One who is a true1 and righteous2 human, yet more powerful than all creatures, that is, one who is also true God.3

1 Rom. 1:3; 1 Cor. 15:21; Heb. 2:17
2 Isa. 53:9; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 7:26
3 Isa. 7:14; 9:6; Jer. 23:6; John 1:1

Lord's Day 6

Q&A 16
Q. Why must the mediator be a true and righteous human?
A. God's justice demands that human nature, which has sinned, must pay for sin;1 but a sinful human could never pay for others.2

1 Rom. 5:12, 15; 1 Cor. 15:21; Heb. 2:14-16
2 Heb. 7:26-27; 1 Pet. 3:18

Q&A 17
Q. Why must the mediator also be true God?
A. So that the mediator, by the power of his divinity, might bear the weight of God's wrath in his humanity and earn for us and restore to us righteousness and life.1

1 Isa. 53; John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:21

Q&A 18
Q. Then who is this mediator—true God and at the same time a true and righteous human?
A. Our Lord Jesus Christ,1 who was given to us to completely deliver us and make us right with God.2

1 Matt. 1:21-23; Luke 2:11; 1 Tim. 2:5
2 1 Cor. 1:30

Q&A 19
Q. How do you come to know this?
A. The holy gospel tells me. God began to reveal the gospel already in Paradise;1 later God proclaimed it by the holy patriarchs2 and prophets3 and foreshadowed it by the sacrifices and other ceremonies of the law;4 and finally God fulfilled it through his own beloved Son.5

1 Gen. 3:15
2 Gen. 22:18; 49:10
3 Isa. 53; Jer. 23:5-6; Mic. 7:18-20; Acts 10:43; Heb. 1:1-2
4 Lev. 1-7; John 5:46; Heb. 10:1-10
5 Rom. 10:4; Gal. 4:4-5; Col. 2:17

Lord's Day 7

Q&A 20
Q. Are all people then saved through Christ just as they were lost through Adam?
A. No. Only those are saved who through true faith are grafted into Christ and accept all his benefits.1

1 Matt. 7:14; John 3:16, 18, 36; Rom. 11:16-21

Q&A 21
Q. What is true faith?
A. True faith is not only a sure knowledge by which I hold as true all that God has revealed to us in Scripture;1 it is also a wholehearted trust,2 which the Holy Spirit creates in me3 by the gospel,4 that God has freely granted, not only to others but to me also,5 forgiveness of sins, eternal righteousness, and salvation.6 These are gifts of sheer grace, granted solely by Christ's merit.7

1 John 17:3, 17; Heb. 11:1-3; James 2:19
2 Rom. 4:18-21; 5:1; 10:10; Heb. 4:14-16
3 Matt. 16:15-17; John 3:5; Acts 16:14
4 Rom. 1:16; 10:17; 1 Cor. 1:21
5 Gal. 2:20
6 Rom. 1:17; Heb. 10:10
7 Rom. 3:21-26; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-10

Q&A 22
Q. What then must a Christian believe?
A. All that is promised us in the gospel,1 a summary of which is taught us in the articles of our universal and undisputed Christian faith.

1 Matt. 28:18-20; John 20:30-31

Q&A 23
Q. What are these articles?
A. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended to hell. The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.



You can read the rest HERE if you have an interest.

 

[hedrick]

Do the Reformed believe that we are saved by Christ's Righteousness?
1) Righteousness is the Fruit of Virtue...
2) Ungodliness is the fruit of sin...
3) Is Christ's Righteousness imparted to us without us acquiring virtue?
4) Or is it but (fictionally) imputed to us who never have to try to acquire virtue...
In the Orthodox Faith, theology is practical, you see...
Arsenios

I'm going to translate "acquiring virtue" into something like doing the right thing. If I don't do that, then I'm opposed to the whole notion of "acquiring virtue." Having done right isn't a possession. It sounds like some kind of credit or award. "Do you thank the slave for doing what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that you were ordered to do, say, ‘We are worthless slaves; we have done only what we ought to have done!’ ”"

What do you mean by righteousness? What I mean is being forgiven by God and being a member of his people. That's based on forgiveness, not virtue.

However righteousness was often understood as proper behavior, or even moral perfection. I'm not sure whether it's a fruit of virtue or virtue itself, but somewhere in there ...

I suspect you have in mind the second meaning, in which case (1) and (2) are OK.

Protestants don't believed that Christ's righteousness is *imparted* to us without acquiring virtue, so we probably agree on (3)

Classical Reformed would say that it's *imputed* to us based on faith. However faith means being a follower of Jesus. So while it's not the result of moral success, it's hard to see how someone could be a follower of Jesus without accepting a commitment to obedience, so I'm not sure I'd say "never have to try to acquire virtue..."

What I will say is that forgiveness or justification comes before virtue. In classical Reformed theology it's based on imputation of Christ's righteousness. You know that I have reservations about that. I think Christ forgives us simply because we're his people, which we receive in faith. The official Reformed ordo salutis says that faith comes before forgiveness, but I'm not sure that's always true. The Gospels sometimes show forgiveness coming first, e.g. Mark 2:5, John 8:11, and the call to follow coming after. In some sense infant baptism is the same: in it, we're made Christ's people and then called to live up to it. I don't think everyone experiences things in the same order. But I think forgiveness and justification may often precede the call to live a Christian life.

 

[Arsenios]

Reading this topic has been depressing.
Since no one else will answer you, here is what the Reformed Theology teaches about salvation in the version that I like best (because it is easy to read).

Thank-you for your depression - Because it reflects my own frustration with myself for not being able to frame a question in a way that the Reformed will answer.

I asked if the Reformed believe that it is the Righteousness of Christ that saves man...

No one here has yet answered
yes,
or no,
or maybe,
or somewhat,...

A depressing response indeed...

I asked this question on another board, and the answer of one member was
YES!

And it makes all the sense in the world.
Because...

Salvation in the Reformed understanding...
IS
The imputation of the Righteousness of Christ...

I flat out do not get why that is so hard for the Reformed here to simply say outright...

HEIDELBERG CATECHISM
INTRODUCTION

This part I am familiar with, thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thank-you for your depression - Because it reflects my own frustration with myself for not being able to frame a question in a way that the Reformed will answer.

I asked if the Reformed believe that it is the Righteousness of Christ that saves man...

No one here has yet answered
yes,
or no,
or maybe,
or somewhat,...

A depressing response indeed...

I asked this question on another board, and the answer of one member was
YES!

And it makes all the sense in the world.
Because...

Salvation in the Reformed understanding...
IS
The imputation of the Righteousness of Christ...

I flat out do not get why that is so hard for the Reformed here to simply say outright...



This part I am familiar with, thank-you...

Arsenios

I think it may be hard because you are Orthodox and that is (according to many Protestants) the same as being Catholic and in CH Catholic beliefs are wrong wrong wrong! according to a number of members who are active in this thread. So when you ask "Do the Reformed believe that it is the Righteousness of Christ that saves people" the answers are evasive. I don't know why they are evasive. They just are.

For what's it's worth I think that the Reformed answer is "yes, but" Yes it is Christ's perfect flawless and infinite righteousness that saves but it is also his substitutionary sacrificial death and his bearing of the punishment due to our sins that saves too.

 

[Arsenios]

What do you mean by righteousness?

The condition of the human soul that does what is right...
The doing of right is righteousness...
It is the product of the virtue of doing right...
Because we become what we do...
Do evil and you become evil...
Do good and you become good...
We have both good and evil in our hearts...

What I mean is being forgiven by God and being a member of his people.
That's based on forgiveness, not virtue.

And this is where we diverege in understanding...
For to us, righteousness without virtue is an oxymoron...
A forgiven sinner is still a sinner...

However righteousness was often understood as proper behavior, or even moral perfection. I'm not sure whether it's a fruit of virtue or virtue itself, but somewhere in there

Yes...

Protestants don't believed that Christ's righteousness is *imparted* to us without acquiring virtue, so we probably agree on (3)

Indeed impartation is denied, and imputation is substituted and affirmed...

Classical Reformed would say that it's *imputed* to us based on faith. However faith means being a follower of Jesus. So while it's not the result of moral success, it's hard to see how someone could be a follower of Jesus without accepting a commitment to obedience, so I'm not sure I'd say "never have to try to acquire virtue..."

Well, IF you are going to say that FAITH is the VIRTUE of following Jesus, then you are back to virtue, not faith, as one's basis for salvation...

What I will say is that forgiveness or justification comes before virtue.

Which contradicts the understanding that one's faith is the virtue of following Christ which gives imputed Righteousness...

In classical Reformed theology it's based on imputation of Christ's righteousness.

OK - So NOW you are saying that imputation comes before faith...

You know that I have reservations about that.

Who could blame you?

I think Christ forgives us simply because we're his people, which we receive in faith. The official Reformed ordo salutis says that faith comes before forgiveness, but I'm not sure that's always true. The Gospels sometimes show forgiveness coming first, e.g. Mark 2:5, John 8:11, and the call to follow coming after. In some sense infant baptism is the same: in it, we're made Christ's people and then called to live up to it. I don't think everyone experiences things in the same order. But I think forgiveness and justification may often precede the call to live a Christian life.

What I see is the Holiness of the Call of God to those whom He calls... For the Call of God is such a Holy and profound encounter with God that in it we can experience the sense and feeling of Salvation, and then wrongly conclude that we ARE Saved simply by being Called of God...

Rom 8:29-30
For whom He did Foreknow,
He also did Foreordain to be conformed to the Image of his Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did foreordain, them He also Called:
and whom He called, them He also Justified:
and whom He Justified, them He also Glorified.

But clearly, being Called by God precedes being Justified by Him...

And knowing the difference would seem more important
than the difference between justification and sanctification...
At least to me...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I think it may be hard because you are Orthodox and that is (according to many Protestants) the same as being Catholic and in CH Catholic beliefs are wrong wrong wrong!

Well who could ever possibly argue against THAT???

So when you ask "Do the Reformed believe that it is the Righteousness of Christ that saves people" the answers are evasive. I don't know why they are evasive. They just are.

Well, I always thought these were stand up and be counted guys, and the evidence we are seeing here denies my thoughts - Always a good thing, mind you... But even so... I mean, just take the flippin' logic to wherever it goes without sissifying one's self in the process...

For what's it's worth I think that the Reformed answer is "yes, but"

NO yesbutts!!!

Yes it is Christ's perfect flawless and infinite righteousness that saves but it is also his substitutionary sacrificial death and his bearing of the punishment due to our sins that saves too.

Well, the second is a derivative...

Thanks for your good post!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

OK - True or False?

Salvation in the Reformed understanding...
IS
The imputation of the Righteousness of Christ...

Or maybe so and maybe no??

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

OK - True or False?

Salvation in the Reformed understanding...
IS
The imputation of the Righteousness of Christ...

Or maybe so and maybe no??

Arsenios

You get points for persistence :cheer:

 

[Arsenios]

You get points for persistence :cheer:

White on rice, I say!

Cheerleaders are annoying, n'est pas?

I keep remembering Christ asking the Jews:

"The Baptism of John: Is it from man, or from God?"

But I do not think these folks will duck and run like the Jews did...

Arsenios

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

OK - True or False?

Salvation in the Reformed understanding...
IS
The imputation of the Righteousness of Christ...

Or maybe so and maybe no??

Arsenios

My "take" - the righteousness of Christ is received by (or "imputed to", if you will) the believer by faith (what you might call "salvation", so that it addresses your question..). It is not an earned righteousness, but the free gift of God. So, we are MADE RIGHTEOUS by Christ in us (Justification), and GROW IN RIGHTEOUSNESS (Sanctification) by the working of the Holy Spirit in us.

Time for coffee

 

[Lamb]

OK - True or False?

Salvation in the Reformed understanding...
IS
The imputation of the Righteousness of Christ...

Or maybe so and maybe no??

Arsenios

For clarification purposes...who do you consider to be the Reformed? There is a Reformed Christian church that is a small group and as a Lutheran I do not identify with them.

 

[MoreCoffee]

White on rice, I say!

Cheerleaders are annoying, n'est pas?

I keep remembering Christ asking the Jews:

"The Baptism of John: Is it from man, or from God?"

But I do not think these folks will duck and run like the Jews did...

Arsenios

There must be a motive for the evasive answers but what it is I do not know. Catholic theologians seem more than willing to give answers to questions that are asked even if the answers displease the persons asking. :ange06:

 

[hedrick]

Well, IF you are going to say that FAITH is the VIRTUE of following Jesus, then you are back to virtue, not faith, as one's basis for salvation...

My understanding is that justification isn't exactly a reward for faith. Ultimately we are reconciled with God because of Christ's death for us. Faith is how we participate in that. It unites us to Christ and makes us his. So justification really comes from Christ, not from faith. Faith is, however, a necessary instrument.

You can, of course, call everything including faith a virtue. But the point of abstractions is that they abstract away details and let us talk about a whole class of things at the same time. It probably doesn't make sense to put faith in the same category as other things that have a very different role in salvation. In the West the equivalent was to say "faith is a work because it's something we do; so see, justification is really from a work." That may be satisfying for getting debating points, but calling faith a work or a virtue only obscures the underlying idea.

There was also a sense that faith really isn't something we do: it's something God does in us. But because the Christian life is based on the Holy Spirit working in us, that's really true of everything about being a Christian.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

There must be a motive for the evasive answers but what it is I do not know. Catholic theologians seem more than willing to give answers to questions that are asked even if the answers displease the persons asking. :ange06:

It's a backward question. Imputed righteousness is one of those ideas in Reformed theology along the lines of substitutionary penal atonement. Not everyone is going to have a quick answer whether either fits their theology. And to ask if imputed righteousness=salvation... huh?

If one does not like an answer, it's not for not trying to make the attempt. But, for clarity -

My answer is "No" - see my post above for explanation.