Justification - Part 2

[Albion]

lol MC is not a roman tho but har har har

?? Did he become a Methodist without telling us?

 

[Andrew]

Works in itself lead to competition and that leads to boasting.
God favors no man over the other... as long as we hold our faith we know that our sins are forgiven... why this is difficult for some to comprehend is beyond me.
No one in this discussion seems to have an issue with there faith but this conversation reminds me of a dog chasing it's own tail

Picks up mike and puts it away neatly, turns off the P.A. and shuts off the lights

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[Arsenios]

Christ did not get it wrong. It was because of his gracious substitutionary atonement that I can stand before the Father uncondemned. You have misunderstood God on this issue and thus live by works instead of by faith. The CH community sees and recognizes your error and we pray that God reveals it to you.

Which word of Christ's is giving you trouble when He said:

IF... ANYONE... IS WILLING...
"EI... TIS... THELEI..." In the Greek...

He does NOT say:
"ONLY those I have previously Justified by My Grace..."
as you seem to want to believe...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Works in itself lead to competition and that leads to boasting.
God favors no man over the other... as long as we hold our faith we know that our sins are forgiven... why this is difficult for some to comprehend is beyond me.
No one in this discussion seems to have an issue with there faith but this conversation reminds me of a dog chasing it's own tail

Picks up mike and puts it away neatly, turns off the P.A. and shuts off the lights

Thanks for taking care of Mike!

The question occured to me on this passage from Scripture: "Lest any boast..."
Why would that caveat even arise,
Unless they were doing prodigious works of repentance...
And they were...
Yet these works, while UNTO Justification, do not EARN Justification...
And there is a stage beyond Justification - WAY beyond...
Of which Paul writes: eg - Glorification

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

?? Did he become a Methodist without telling us?

No...

In fact, his Methodist friends on social media...

Call him Pay-Pal...

Jes' Sayin'...

Arsenios

 

[RichWh1]

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

What justifies us? Faith.



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[MennoSota]

Which word of Christ's is giving you trouble when He said:

IF... ANYONE... IS WILLING...
"EI... TIS... THELEI..." In the Greek...

He does NOT say:
"ONLY those I have previously Justified by My Grace..."
as you seem to want to believe...

Arsenios

Are you referring to John 7:17 when Jesus appeared at the festival in Jerusalem? I note that you have been quite bad at keeping the context of passages as you make claims that are not accurate.
John 7:12-20
[12]There was a lot of grumbling about him among the crowds. Some argued, “He’s a good man,” but others said, “He’s nothing but a fraud who deceives the people.”
[13]But no one had the courage to speak favorably about him in public, for they were afraid of getting in trouble with the Jewish leaders.
[14]Then, midway through the festival, Jesus went up to the Temple and began to teach.
[15]The people were surprised when they heard him. “How does he know so much when he hasn’t been trained?” they asked.
[16]So Jesus told them, “My message is not my own; it comes from God who sent me.
[17]Anyone who wants to do the will of God will know whether my teaching is from God or is merely my own.
[18]Those who speak for themselves want glory only for themselves, but a person who seeks to honor the one who sent him speaks truth, not lies.
[19]Moses gave you the law, but none of you obeys it! In fact, you are trying to kill me.”
[20]The crowd replied, “You’re demon possessed! Who’s trying to kill you?”

 

[atpollard]

Which word of Christ's is giving you trouble when He said:

IF... ANYONE... IS WILLING...
"EI... TIS... THELEI..." In the Greek...

Arsenios

The rest of the verse ....

[John 7:17 MGNT] 17 εαν τις θελη το θελημα αυτου ποιειν γνωσεται περι της διδαχης ποτερον εκ του θεου εστιν η εγω απ’ εμαυτου λαλω

And the context ...

[John 7:14-18 NASB] 14 But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and [began to] teach. 15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, "How has this man become learned, having never been educated?" 16 So Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 "If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or [whether] I speak from Myself. 18 "He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

And the statement from Paul that no one is willing ...

[Rom 3:9-11 NASB] 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

[Rom 3:11 MGNT] 11 ουκ εστιν ο συνιων ουκ εστιν ο εκζητων τον θεον

And the claim that some are blind to the Gospel ...

[2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

All give me a little trouble giving people credit for what seems to be a choice of God (not the other way around).

Shalom,
Arthur

 

[Arsenios]

Are you referring to John 7:17

Matthew 16:24

Which word of Christ's is giving you trouble when He said:

IF... ANYONE... IS WILLING...
"EI... TIS... THELEI..." In the Greek...

He does NOT say:
"ONLY those I have previously Justified by My Grace..."
as you seem to want to believe...

The onus, you see, is on the person being willing to follow Jesus...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The rest of the verse ....

[John 7:17 MGNT] 17 εαν τις θελη το θελημα αυτου ποιειν γνωσεται περι της διδαχης ποτερον εκ του θεου εστιν η εγω απ’ εμαυτου λαλω

And the context ...

[John 7:14-18 NASB] 14 But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and [began to] teach. 15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, "How has this man become learned, having never been educated?" 16 So Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 "If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or [whether] I speak from Myself. 18 "He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

And the statement from Paul that no one is willing ...

[Rom 3:9-11 NASB] 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

[Rom 3:11 MGNT] 11 ουκ εστιν ο συνιων ουκ εστιν ο εκζητων τον θεον

And the claim that some are blind to the Gospel ...

[2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

All give me a little trouble giving people credit for what seems to be a choice of God (not the other way around).

Shalom,
Arthur

Forgive me, I should have attributed the conditional to Matt 16:24...

εαν τις θελη is different... "If ever anyone should will..."

16:24 means, "If anyone is willing..."

Shalom!

Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

Matthew 16:24
The onus, you see, is on the person being willing to follow Jesus...

Arsenios

Just a quick addendum to my earlier post:

[Mat 16:13-27 NASB] 13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some [say] John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ. 21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. 22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid [it,] Lord! This shall never happen to You." 23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's." 24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

Does this really sound like a context in which the message you quoted was being offered to unbelievers to decide to follow Jesus and become disciples?
Or is this a warning to disciples of the cost of a life following Christ from this point forward?
A message to the saved about the cost of walking in sanctification.

God Bless,
Arthur.

 

[MennoSota]

Matthew 16:24



The onus, you see, is on the person being willing to follow Jesus...

Arsenios

Then humans are in a hopeless, no chance position. Our judgment and damnation is secured, for we will always run and hide from the presence of God.

Thankfully for us, your teaching is false. There is hope that God will extend his gracious mercy despite our wretchedness. God knows whom He will choose and to whom He will fully justify by Christ and Christ alone. May you be chosen, Arsenios.

 

[MennoSota]

Just a quick addendum to my earlier post:

[Mat 16:13-27 NASB] 13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some [say] John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ. 21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. 22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid [it,] Lord! This shall never happen to You." 23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's." 24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

Does this really sound like a context in which the message you quoted was being offered to unbelievers to decide to follow Jesus and become disciples?
Or is this a warning to disciples of the cost of a life following Christ from this point forward?
A message to the saved about the cost of walking in sanctification.

God Bless,
Arthur.

I was about to say something similar. The context around Matthew 16 shows that Arsenios is misrepresenting the verse.

 

[Arsenios]

[Mat 16:13-27 NASB] 13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some [say] John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ. 21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. 22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid [it,] Lord! This shall never happen to You." 23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's." 24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

Does this really sound like a context in which the message you quoted was being offered to unbelievers to decide to follow Jesus and become disciples?

Yes... It follows naturally with His first question of "Who do people say I am?" Because He is the Christ and will be Crucified, and those who follow Him will be called to similar persecutions, and they were... So He lays it out for all to see: "IF anyone is willing after Me to be following, he must first deny himself (repentance), take up his cross (repentance enhanced unto blood) and be following Me (unto death)..." And then He explains why... The message is clearly repentance unto following Christ in denial of self after taking up one's cross...

Or is this a warning to disciples of the cost of a life following Christ from this point forward?

Oh, it is clearly that, but is far, far wider than that... These are the Disciples that will be discipling the nations, and this is a key component of that Apostolic Discipling of the Nations...

A message to the saved about the cost of walking in sanctification.

It is a message to anyone who is willing to come after Christ - There is a cost...

God Bless,

Back at ya!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

God knows whom He will choose and to whom He will fully justify by Christ and Christ alone.

Does anyone besides God know who is chosen and justified?

How do they know?

How to you know that you are one of the chosen?

Is it simply a matter of you believing the Bible?

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Does anyone besides God know who is chosen and justified?

How do they know?

How to you know that you are one of the chosen?

Is it simply a matter of you believing the Bible?

Arsenios

I believe God knows all things but we don't know much at all... I know that tomorrow is monday... and I know that mondays are terrible for me... uggghhh!

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[MennoSota]

Does anyone besides God know who is chosen and justified?

How do they know?

How to you know that you are one of the chosen?

Is it simply a matter of you believing the Bible?

Arsenios

God is the only one for whom that question matters.

We live by faith that God justifies us in Christ alone.

It is a matter of faith. The demons believe the Bible. They do not have faith.

John Piper says this about justification:
Justification is the act of God by which he declares us to be just or righteous or perfect because by faith alone we have been united to Jesus Christ, who is perfect, who is just, who is righteous. So, justification is a legal standing before God, owing to a spiritual union with Jesus, which is owing to faith alone. You don’t work yourself into or perform your way into this standing with God. He declares you to be perfect because of your union with Christ, and that happens by faith alone.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Does anyone besides God know who is chosen and justified?

How do they know?

How to you know that you are one of the chosen?

Is it simply a matter of you believing the Bible?

Arsenios

You found and pointed to the crack in their pot through which all the truth leaked out long ago. It is the self confidence - vaunting self confidence almost infinite in its conceit - that is the crack. "I am confident in God's faithfulness [to me] and that all his promises [to me] will unfailingly come to pass and it is upon this [confidence that it is all about me] that my faith rests assured [that I am the one to whom all those promises are made] in God's faithfulness [to me]." The words in brackets are unspoken but assumed to be true, assumed in pride and strange complacence. It is a danger more terrible than the spoken words ever reveal.

 

[Josiah]

Repenting from evil is a good work...

.... and since you insist the Dead atheist PERFORMS this "good work" void of faith, void of the Holy Spirit, void of Christ.... and this good work adequately performed by the Dead Atheist is the primary, first cause of his justification.... then that Dead Atheist is the Savior of himself, the Lord and Giver of Life to himself. No God. No Christ. No Incarnation. No Cross. No Resurrection. No Holy Spirit. Just the Dead justifying self and life to self.


Again, IF you'd allow the "Call" (as you put it) to be empowered by the Holy Spirit, containing with it life/faith/Holy Spirit - then you would be on the same page as Lutherans (and thus be the target of the bold charge of heresy by the RCC). But you have - over and over again - ignored that indicating that you do NOT hold to that. Rather God is inert -- it's ALL up to the Dead Man who denies God exists, who denies any Savior, who denies God's mercy and grace, who denies God's wisdom and will and Law - one VOID of the Holy Spirit and spiritual life.

You deny their ability to repent

I do. I actually deny that those without spiritual life can do anything spiritual in the sight of God, can do ANYTHING pleasing to God ("it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God without faith" God Himself stated; kinda hard to not understand that). They CAN feel remorse (even your dog does) but remorse is entirely different than repentance, remorse being a psychological thing while repentance being a spiritual act of faith. Repentance mandates one believes in God (why direct anything to one whose very existence is denied?), that upholds GOD's supreme wisdom and the holiness of His Law (why note sorrow for violating something they insist doesn't exist?), looking to Jesus Christ for forgiveness (why look to one they deny exists and reject wholly as silly myth?) and look the the Holy Spirit (which they don't have at all and deny even exists) for His direction (which they don't want) to live a new life (which they don't seek)?

Part of your problem is that your whole apologetic hinges on the word "kai" mandating causation, mandating sequence (which I think you've already admitted the word BY NO MEANS even implies). Yes, Jesus calls ALL to repentance, the holiness of God, absolute perfection, love, forgiveness, etc. Your fundamental mistake is that THEREFORE this is what justifies people, which of course means that Dead Self saves self, the Dead give life to self. It destroys Christianity.

Again, I remind you of the comment made by that Baptist preacher about his "decision theology" and "altar calls." But you reject that the Call is anything but an empty, void thing... you've rejected my view that the "call" as you put it, carries with it justification (or anything from God) in order to insist that it all hinges on what the Dead Atheist does for SELF with an inert God just sitting there, waiting to see if the good work is performed by that Dead Atheist that He thus will reward accordingly (thus rendering Jesus irrelevant, the Holy Spirit irrelevant, justification being the free gift self gives self)

The people you described are called SINNERS, Josiah...
And Christ said He CAME NOT to call the Righteous, but SINNERS to Repentance, remember?

Dead atheists don't regard themselves as sinners. They will admit they do wrong, but regarding oneself as a sinner means they accept God (not deny Him) and accept the authority and wisdom of God's Law (which they deny and reject). A "sinner" is one who "misses the mark" of GOD'S will. One who rejects God and His will never declares that he "falls short" of "it" because "it" isn't even real.

But Paul did say of those repenting without God's Law:

Rom 2:14
For when the Gentiles,
which have not the law,
do by nature
the things contained in the law,
these,
having not the law,
are a law unto themselves:

Yup. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Dead Atheist giving spiritual life to themselves (no Holy Spirit), justifying self (no Jesus Christ). Paul believed that Jesus IS THE Savior (not each dead atheist for self, with God being inert), that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and GIVER of Life (not each Dead Atheist for his own dead self) - note, the GIVER (not offerer) of Life. Paul believed that all this is "the free gift of God lest anyone should have reason to boast." That all this is an "inheritance from God" (inheritance, by definition, is not at all earned by the receiver but simply GIVEN by the giver - not offered but given).




- Josiah



.

 

[Arsenios]

.... and since you insist the Dead atheist PERFORMS this "good work" void of faith, void of the Holy Spirit, void of spiritual anything, void of God - with an inert God.... and this good work is the primary, first cause of his justification.... then that Dead Atheist is the Savior of himself, the Lord and Giver of Life to himself. No God. No Christ. No Incarnation. No Cross. No Resurrection. No Holy Spirit. Just the Dead justifying self and giving life to self.

This is how you insist on portraying the meaning of my words... They do not say what you insist they are saying... And it seems as if they will not convey their actual meanings to you anytime soon...

So let's try it this way:
Quote my specific words that you think say or mean "Void of God, the dead justify the dead..." Maybe we can work from there... I have told you three times now that God in not inert, that without Christ we can do nothing... And some short-circuiter in your brain keeps repeating the lie that I say God is inert... There is something I said that you interpret as meaning that God is inert, so please exhibit the integrity of saying "You said this, and it means you think God is inert..."

I will say this: God is not always manifest, and indeed He hides Himself from some for His Purposing... The fact that He remained hidden from me as an atheist does not mean he was not there working with me to some purpose of which you are unaware... And indeed of which I was unaware as an atheist... I was tried in the fires and storms of life and held to integrity and truth at any and all costs to the destruction of my life, OK? And this while denying God exists at all, and especially despising Christians and holding them in utter contempt... I did that for 36 years... It was only after I knew God that I remembered a little deal I had made with myself that carried me when I was 4-5 years old, to be truthful to myself no matter what when faced with people lying to one another... Which deal I promptly forgot, but kept...

Again, IF you'd allow the "Call" (as you put it) to be empowered by the Holy Spirit,

Did I not quote you Paul?
Have you EVER engaged that text?
Does that text somehow NOT say that it is GOD Who Calls,
and Who then later Justifies,
and then later Glorifies?

Have you short-circuited past that text too?

containing with it life/faith/Holy Spirit -

How could it not??? The Call IS of God and is UNTO repentance which is UNTO Justification, in that order...

then you would be on the same page as Lutherans (and thus be the target of the bold charge of heresy by the RCC).

THAT call is unto REPENTANCE...
AFTER repentance THEN comes Justification BY God...
And AFTER Justification, THEN comes Glorification BY God...

But you have - over and over again - ignored that

YOU are the one ignoring the Biblical Text of Romans 8:30

indicating that you do NOT hold to that.

I do hold to that, but man is not yet prepared for Justification prior to repentance...

Rather God is inert --

For the third time now I say again, God is NEVER inert...

it's ALL up to the Dead Man who denies God exists,
who denies any Savior,
who denies God's mercy and grace,
who denies God's wisdom
and will
and Law -

All true - One denying all these can still repent from evil...
THAT is simply the condition we suffer in this fallen life of Good AND evil from the Garden's Tree of Knowledge...

one VOID of the Holy Spirit and spiritual life.

NEVER void...
But UNAWARE - Totally unaware...

You need to soften your broken heart, my Brother...
Make me right before making me wrong...
THEN make me wrong...

Arsenios