Justification - Part 2

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MennoSota

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When a sinner is Justified by God, his sin is taken away from him...

Remission of sins is the pre-requisite of Justification by God...

Baptism is unto the forgiveness, the remission, of sins...

We can and do still commit sins, but these are abberrations from our Christian life in Christ...
Committing sins is not what Christians are called to do...

The Gospel of Repentance is the beginning of our Salvation...
The Gospel of Repentance is the Gospel of Christ...
The Gospel of Justification is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ...
There is no Gospel of Justification in the Bible...
Can YOU show me the Gospel of Justification in the Bible?

Arsenios
There is one gospel, it is the gospel of grace...God giving us what we do not deserve. Anything added to this is anathema and represents a false gospel. Arsenios, your teaching is not from God.
"For it is by grace you have been saved."
 

Arsenios

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We are all sinners, does it not say that those who say they have no sin are liars?

To say that we are all sinners and we all have sin is one thing...
To say that we have returned to our old sinful ways is quite another...

When we do sin, we confess, and we repent of doing it again...
And THAT takes many forms...

An Orthodox Christian cannot boast: "Oh yeah, we sin all the time, just like before, but now we are Justified because we are repenting and believing in Christ..."

When we find ourselves sinning all the time just like before but now with some repentance thrown in, we know that we are nigh unto burning together with the old used straw... That would be a major crisis... Life threatening... For us...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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There is one gospel, it is the gospel of grace...

Tell that to Christ:

He must not have heard!

Matt 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations

Drop mike... :)

Arsenios
 

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Both James and Paul quote Genesis 15 where we read “Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness “

I think you have remembered the wrong passage. The story of Isaac is in Genesis 22. And it is to the story in Genesis 22 that saint James refers. The saying "Abram believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness" is from Genesis 15:6
Genesis 16:4 Then the word of Jehovah was spoken to him again, “Eliezer will not be your heir, but a child born of you (your own flesh and blood) will be your heir.” 5 Then Jehovah brought him outside and said to him, “Look up at the sky and count the stars if you can. Your descendants will be like that.” 6 Abram believed Jehovah who, because of this, held him to be an upright man. 7 And he said, “I am Jehovah who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land as your possession.”
that is not about the story of God's call to Abraham to offer Isaac in sacrifice. In Genesis 15 Abram was not yet named Abraham, the father of nations, but bore his old name that is not the name by which he is called in saint James' letter and in saint Paul's letters.
Genesis 22:1 Some time later God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!” And he answered, “Here I am.” 2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I shall point out to you.” 3 Abraham rose early next morning and saddled his donkey and took with him two of his young men and his son Isaac. He chopped wood for the burnt offering and set out for the place to which God had directed him. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance, 5 and he said to the young men, “Stay here with the donkey. The boy and I will go over there to worship and then we will come back to you.” 6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son. He carried in his hand the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke to Abraham, his father, “Father!” 8 And Abraham replied, “Yes, my son?” Isaac said, “The fire and the wood are here, but where is the lamb for the sacrifice?” Abraham replied, “God himself will provide the lamb for the sacrifice.” They went on, the two of them together, 9 until they came to the place to which God had directed them. When Abraham had built the altar and set the wood on it, he bound his son Isaac and laid him on the wood placed on the altar. 10 He then stretched out his hand to seize the knife and slay his son. 11 But the angel of Jehovah called to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 “Do not lay your hand on the boy; do not harm him, for now I know that you fear God, and you have not held back from me your only son.” 13 Abraham looked around and saw behind him a ram caught by its horns in a bush. He offered it as a burnt offering in place of his son. 14 Abraham named the place ‘The Lord will provide.’ And the saying has lasted to this day. 15 And the angel of Jehovah called from heaven a second time, 16 “By myself I have sworn, it is Jehovah who speaks, because you have done this and not held back your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the lands of their enemies. 18 All the nations of the earth will be blessed through your descendants because you have obeyed me.” 19 So Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba and it was there that Abraham stayed. 20 Some time after this Abraham was told that Milcah too, had borne children for Nahor, Abraham’s brother: 21 Uz, the firstborn, Buz, his brother, Kemuel the father of Aram, 22 Chesed, Hazo, Pildash, Jidlaph and Bethuel. 23 Bethuel became the father of Rebekah. These eight children Milcah gave Nahor, Abraham’s brother. 24 He also had a concubine, named Reumah, who gave birth to Tebah, Gaham, Tahash and Maacah.
The details are worth notice. It is Abraham that saints Paul and James speak of not Abram.

James tells his readers that Abraham was justified by his works - James 2:21-24 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Abraham was justified by faith apart from works according to Scripture.

Romana 4:2-5.
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “ Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

It is wise to ask what saint Paul is referring to when he writes about works.

Paul asks his Jewish brothers to go back to the sources of revelation. Long before the law was given to Moses, there was the faith of Abram. That means that faith is both more fundamental and more universal than the Law of Moses. The law, instead, is a form of religion proper to the Jews and of value only for a period of their history. He asks:
“How did Abraham become the friend of God and why is he taken as the model of believers? Was it because he believed in God’s promises, or because he had received the rite of circumcision?”​
It is like asking a Christian today:
“What is important, to believe in Christ, or to be baptised?”​
The answer is clear; we become the friends of God by believing in his promises. The rite of baptism ratifies with a divine seal the gift of God and our commitment to him. Therefore, baptism and the other sacraments are the “signs and seals” of lively working faith and have no value without such lively working faith. Baptism is the beginning of our living for God in the Christian community. Communion has no meaning unless we live in unity and share the fullness of the life of the Church.

In verse 14 saint Paul observes that faith has no power (v. 14) if works of the law are all that matters. Here Paul points out something that many times we fail to see. To believe in God, who rewards good works of obedience, is to obey God and so it is seen that to obey God's laws is already faith (Heb 11:6).
Yet, without faith, it is impossible to please him: no one draws near to God, without first believing, that he exists, and that he rewards those who seek him earnestly.​
This faith is alive with good works and cannot exist if it does not work because faith that does not work is dead as saint James observes, however, Abram's confidence in God’s promise (the promise to be the father of many nations) was living faith and that was shown when he offered Isaac as sacrifice at God's command even though the promise that he would be the father of many nations was to be fulfilled in Isaac the child that God promised. Faith is found in every religion, but for Christians faith is everything. He did not doubt although his body could no longer give life (v. 19). Abraham had a faith similar to the Christian who believes in the resurrection of Christ. We also are asked to believe in a God who gives life and for whom nothing is impossible.

Our faith produces works (cf Eph 2:8-10)

So the one who has been justified will do the works God had prepared for him/her. That is where works come in.

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MennoSota

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First, stop abusing Mike. He's a nice guy.
Tell that to Christ:

He must not have heard!

Matt 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations

Drop mike... :)

Arsenios
Second, you take a verse out of context and claim it as your proof. But, the context reveals that your theology is not grounded in truth.
The good news is being preached throughout the world. It is the good news of God's amazing grace. Your good news is not good news at all. Yours is a message of chains and bitter labor with the hope that God might...maybe...be kind. Your message is really no different than Islam, Hinduism or any works based means of salvation.
The true gospel is the gospel of grace...and it is spreading around the world by God's ordained will.

Matthew 24:4-31
[4]Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you,
[5]for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many.
[6]And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won’t follow immediately.
[7]Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world.
[8]But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come.
[9]“Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers.
[10]And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other.
[11]And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people.
[12]Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold.
[13]But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
[14]And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come.
[15]“The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place.” (Reader, pay attention!)
[16]“Then those in Judea must flee to the hills.
[17]A person out on the deck of a roof must not go down into the house to pack.
[18]A person out in the field must not return even to get a coat.
[19]How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days.
[20]And pray that your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
[21]For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again.
[22]In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.
[23]“Then if anyone tells you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t believe it.
[24]For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.
[25]See, I have warned you about this ahead of time.
[26]“So if someone tells you, ‘Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,’ don’t bother to go and look. Or, ‘Look, he is hiding here,’ don’t believe it!
[27]For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Man comes.
[28]Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near.
[29]“Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, *** the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, *** and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
[30]And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31]And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.
 

Andrew

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Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2 Thessalonians 3:1-14


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Josiah

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Matthew 24:4-31
[4]Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you,
[5]for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many.


IMO, by far the most common false Messiah is self. Self looking in the mirror at self and patting self on the back, lifting high the mirror rather than the Cross. It's the antithesis of humility/repentance, and it is trusting in a false savior.
 

MennoSota

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IMO, by far the most common false Messiah is self. Self looking in the mirror at self and patting self on the back, lifting high the mirror rather than the Cross. It's the antithesis of humility/repentance, and it is trusting in a false savior.
A quote from Tim Kellor on the topic, "We are God's possession."

"The basic motive is that God sent his Son to save us by grace and to adopt us into his family. So now, because of that grace, in our gratitude, we want to resemble our Father. We want the family resemblance. We want to look like our Savior. We want to please our Father.
The basic principle then is this: that we are not to live to please ourselves. We’re not to live as if we belong to ourselves. And that means several things. It means, first of all, we are not to determine for ourselves what is right or wrong. We give up the right to determine that, and we rely wholly on God’s Word. We also give up the operating principle that we usually use in day-to-day life; we stop putting ourselves first, and we always put first what pleases God and what loves our neighbor. It also means that we are to have no part of our lives that is immune from self-giving. We’re supposed to give ourselves wholly to him—body and soul. And it means we trust God through thick and thin, through the good and the bad times, in life and in death.
And how do the motive and the principle relate? Because we’re saved by grace, we’re not our own. A woman once said to me, “If I knew I was saved because of what I did, if I contributed to my salvation, then God couldn’t ask anything of me because I’d made a contribution. But if I’m saved by grace, sheer grace, then there’s nothing he cannot ask of me.” And that’s right. You’re not your own. You were bought with a price.
Some years ago I heard a Christian speaker say, “How can you come to grips with someone who has given himself utterly for you without you giving yourself utterly for him?”
Jesus gave himself wholly for us. So now, we must give ourselves wholly to him."

Yes, Josiah, our selves get in the way.
 

Arsenios

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Communion has no meaning unless we live in unity
and share the fullness of the life of the Church.

When thou O man art about to eat the Master's Body
Draw nigh with fear lest thou be seared;
It is Fire.
And as thou drinkest the divine Blood unto Communion
First reconcile thyself with them that grieve thee.

Then with daring venture to eat the Mystic Food.


I know a man who fancied himself a theologian...
Conned his way into Baptism into Orthodoxy...
Avoiding mention of his lifelong and ongoing mortal sins...
When he did his life confession prior to Baptism...

He ended up in a state psychiatric facility...
Where he completed his Confession...
To his psychiatrist...
While confined...

It is Fire...

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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When thou O man art about to eat the Master's Body
Draw nigh with fear lest thou be seared;
It is Fire.
And as thou drinkest the divine Blood unto Communion
First reconcile thyself with them that grieve thee.

Then with daring venture to eat the Mystic Food.


I know a man who fancied himself a theologian...
Conned his way into Baptism into Orthodoxy...
Avoiding mention of his lifelong and ongoing mortal sins...
When he did his life confession prior to Baptism...

He ended up in a state psychiatric facility...
Where he completed his Confession...
To his psychiatrist...
While confined...

It is Fire...

Arsenios

Yes, a very grave danger. Read my comment with charity, brother, and remember to whom we speak and what the bread and wine means to them.
 

Arsenios

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Yes, Josiah, our selves get in the way.

That's Bank...

If anyone is willing...
after Me to be following...
Let him first deny himself...
Then take up his cross...
And follow Me...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Yes, a very grave danger. Read my comment with charity, brother, and remember to whom we speak and what the bread and wine means to them.

I loved your comment...

And Services begin in 6 minutes...

And I got the warning...

"...and I shall not speak of..."

Thank-you...

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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That's Bank...

If anyone is willing...
after Me to be following...
Let him first deny himself...
Then take up his cross...
And follow Me...

Arsenios
Arsenios, you ignore grace and thus miss the mark and fall short.
 

MoreCoffee

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I loved your comment...

And Services begin in 6 minutes...

And I got the warning...

"...and I shall not speak of..."

Thank-you...

Arsenios

I went to mass in a distant parish, an hour's drive from my home, and after mass I had morning tea with a nice biscuit and then chatted with friends including the parish priest and then 11 of us went for lunch at a Italian restaurant and chatted some more. So it was a very pleasant day. Good godly conversations and a lovely sunny day. Time for my sleep now.

God be with you brother Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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I went to mass in a distant parish, an hour's drive from my home, and after mass I had morning tea with a nice biscuit and then chatted with friends including the parish priest and then 11 of us went for lunch at a Italian restaurant and chatted some more. So it was a very pleasant day. Good godly conversations and a lovely sunny day. Time for my sleep now.

God be with you brother Arsenios
Of course a Roman would go out to Italian...
 

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Arsenios

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Arsenios,
you ignore grace
and thus miss the mark
and fall short.

I will pass your correction on to Christ,
who obviously got it wrong,
according to you
when He said:


If anyone is willing...
after Me to be following...
Let him first deny himself...
Then take up his cross...
And follow Me...


Without Christ we can do nothing...
This IS the Gospel of Repentance...
It IS the Gospel of Grace through Repentance...

God gives Grace to those repenting...
They cannot earn that Grace...
Obedience is but what is already owed...
Disobey and Grace departs...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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Of course a Roman would go out to Italian...

Well, there's always McDonald's...

Greek coffee and pastry from our 1-1/2 hour away womens monastery is...

Even by Italian Restaurant standards is...

Simply butter than Parkay...

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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I will pass your correction on to Christ,
who obviously got it wrong,
according to you
when He said:


If anyone is willing...
after Me to be following...
Let him first deny himself...
Then take up his cross...
And follow Me...


Without Christ we can do nothing...
This IS the Gospel of Repentance...
It IS the Gospel of Grace through Repentance...

God gives Grace to those repenting...
They cannot earn that Grace...
Obedience is but what is already owed...
Disobey and Grace departs...

Arsenios
Christ did not get it wrong. It was because of his gracious substitutionary atonement that I can stand before the Father uncondemned. You have misunderstood God on this issue and thus live by works instead of by faith. The CH community sees and recognizes your error and we pray that God reveals it to you.
 
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