Justification - Part 2

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Pedrito

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==============================================================================================

MoreCoffee in Post #1 [emphasis added]:
Most of the bible was written either in Hebrew or Greek. Some parts are in Aramaic and maybe a little Latin is present in this or that part of the four canonical gospels and there may be a phrase here and there of Persian or Babylonian or even Egyptian origin. But for the most part a scholar who knows ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek will be equipped to read the scriptures in their allegedly original languages - I say allegedly original because it is possible that some parts of the first books of the old testament may have been written in languages other than Hebrew but translated into Hebrew at some time in the remote past.

Let’s see.

==============================================================================================

It’s true that many “scholars” tell us that:
- Because pagan mythological stories resembling in some measure the early chapters of Genesis exist;
- And those stories (not in the Hebrew language) existed before Moses penned the book we call Genesis;
- That therefore Moses must have based his writing on ideas borrowed from those mythologies.

It is also true that many “religionists” tell us that God gave Moses those ideas directly by inspiration, when He prompted Moses to pen the record; Moses was not simply committing to writing, information handed down from Noah (and probably Adam).

However, it is demonstrable that neither of those ideas is correct.

==============================================================================================

The quickest and simplest way to demonstrate that is to consider aspects of the written Chinese language.

The migrant group(s) who gave rise to the Chinese people must have split off around the time of Nimrod and Babel, if not before – very early on. Long before Moses wrote Genesis. Yet Chinese calligraphy harbours inarguable traces of the early world history as penned much later by Moses.

That being the case (and Readers are invited to check whether or not that is so), the early history of the world as recorded by Moses, was already known from the earliest times, and the pagan myths are merely distortions of the original knowledge.

And when we consider that Noah’s and Abram’s (Abraham’s) lives overlapped by 50 or 60 years, it would not be inappropriate to deduce that Abraham learned the original history from the faithful, God-fearing Noah. And deduce that both spoke the same (original) language. Abraham in turn would have ensured that the important knowledge was passed down through succeeding generations of his faithful descendants until it finally reached Moses.

==============================================================================================

The Chinese calligraphy really is worth checking out. A Chinese lady at a Bible study I was attending, who had recently developed an understanding of the Gospel message, became so excited when I presented the idea to the group. She even identified the significance of some characters for the rest of us, without any prompting. So the concept is not contrived.

Maybe it should excite us, too.
 

Josiah

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Abraham believed and acted according to his belief and his faith (for faith without the work would be utterly dead) was accounted as righteousness for him and God spoke well of him. Thus a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


1. Abraham BELIEVED (faith being "the free gift of God") THEN acted according to that faith, with the life he now had, directed by the Holy Spirit which he now had. It was NOT a case of FIRST he brought himself to life, FIRST he kidnapped the Holy Spirit, FIRST he gave himself life, FIRST he jsutified himself - and thus God paid him as he merited. Jesus said Christians are to love as they FIRST were loved... to forgive as we were FIRST forgiven.... Not "love" so that you'll awaken God from his inert, uncaring, uninvolvement and simply pay you what you earned.


2. You continue to twist and abuse this verse in order to try to diminish Christ and His work. As Lutherans teach, saving faith is never alone; saving faith is "busy with love to God and others" (Luther); faith that is void of humility, love, works, etc. is not faith at all. James is saying the same thing. NOT that the Gospel is wrong, Christianity is wrong, Jesus is irrelevant, Jesus is not the Savior, the Holy Spirit does not give anything, but rather each dead man saves self as God is inert, inactive, uncaring, sitting up in heaven without any interest. James is writing to CHRISTIANS, to the Justified, to those WITH faith, WITH life, WITH the Holy Spirit - speaking to them of Sanctification (narrow), he is using the term "justification" in it's broad sense to embrace all soteriology. It's revealing when Catholics change it to Justification (narrow) and to the Dead all in a passionate attempt to make Jesus as small as possible and dead self as big as possible, to make Jesus as irrelevant as possible and the Dead as powerful as possible, to make God inert and man salvic. James would be horrified by how some Catholics abuse his words. He is simply saying what Lutherans do: Faith that saves is faith that is active and obedient (as well as loving, humble, repentive, serving, etc.). Jesus said that is how we can "see" faith and how we know faith exists, but neither James or Jesus state that the Dead save themselves thus making Christianity wrong, the Gospel false, Jesus and the Holy Spirit irrelevant, and the Bible constantly wrong when it speaks of JESUS as the Savior (not the Dead, not self), when it proclaims that the HOLY SPIRIT is the Lord and Giver of Life (not the Dead, not self), when the Bible says that it is "the free gift of God" and "the inheritance of God".


See post 213. Perhaps you'll tell us specifically, exactly WHAT in this position is the horrible, condemnable HERESY that your denomination officially declared 500 years ago and still anathematizes today.


- Josiah




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Arsenios

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Thus, the Dead atheist doesn't give himself life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification BY repenting or by doing anything else spiritual. He cannot.

No one has ever argued that fallen man can or does...

Do you know the difference between BY and THROUGH??

"For BY the Grace you are existing having been saved THROUGH the Faith, and THIS not out of yourselves. Of God the Gift."

BY is the dative of agency, and God is the Agent...
THROUGH specifies the means of acquisition...

"Ask and ye shall receive..." You ask, and God gives, and you receive...
The corollary is:
"Ask not and ye shall not receive..."

You receive THROUGH asking...
WHAT you receive is given BY God...

God GIVES justification.

God Justifies - Justification BY God is the mid-stage of Salvation...
First God calls, then He Justifies, then He Glorifies...
You have never addressed this key passage in your doctrine of Justification...

The heresy in your doctrine is that you insist that God Justifies IN ORDER THAT MAN CAN REPENT...
That view is FALSE...
ALL men are CALLED to Repentance UNTO Justification...
To ignore God's CALL to Repentance is to DENY Justification for those not repenting...
Because repentance is the means of attaining Justification which is given ONLY BY God...
God does not Justify the impenitent...
Nor does He Glorify the unjustified...

Yet God Calls men to repentance...
Justifies the penitent...
And Glorifies the Saints...

Your doctrine reverses cause and effect making null the Holy Words of our Lord:

Luke 5:32
I came not to call the righteous,
but sinners to repentance.


Christ's Own Words: I came not to call the righteous to repentance, but I came to call sinners to repentance...

Your clearly heretical view is that Christ came to JUSTIFY sinners so that they can THEN come to repentance...

IF Christ Justifies (narrow) them FIRST as you insist,
THEN He is calling the RIGHTEOUS to repentance...


Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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Merely overcoming weaknesses isn't including faith that is the true biblical repentance that God gives us now is it?

Who gives us overcoming of weakness then?

Do you want to attribute not sinning to Satan???

You deny Him by claiming your own obedience...

Christ's words:

Mat 13:21 "Yet he hath not root in himself..."

Christ clearly shows here in the Parable of the Sower that human preparation in a life lived is a prerequisite for the Seed of the Gospel to successfully take root...

Living a repentant life is the preparation needed...

That is why the FIRST word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is REPENT!!

Salvation is THROUGH repentance, and BY God...

Arsenios
 

psalms 91

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I disagree that we prepare to recieve the seed of faith, God freely gives and once given then it is up to the Word and us to grow that faith. Man has never been merely a spectator because God did give us free will and wants us to willingly choose Him and not just have it thrust upon us. As for election is it possible that that is done because Gods sees through time and knows exactly what we will do and if we will choose Him? I think so. All through the gospel it talks of mans role, for instance Jesus says those who love me obey me, not that they willl just do what they should.
 

TurtleHare

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Abraham's good work, the one explicitly mentioned by saint James, was done in front of one witness alone and he was to die so even though he lived and thus you could reply that he was the witness in truth he was not there to be a witness of Abraham's intended good work of sacrificing his son, out of obedience to God almighty's command, but was in truth intended to be dead and no witness at all thus Abraham's good work was to be done with no Earthly witnesses and not "in front of men". None would have known except that is mother would wonder what became of her son. So saint James anticipated any argument about witnesses as did God and saint Paul also in his letters. Abraham believed and acted according to his belief and his faith (for faith without the work would be utterly dead) was accounted as righteousness for him and God spoke well of him. Thus a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Abraham trusted in God which is the part you forgot to add to the above text which is faith that justified him before God and that is a trust which is what all believers have so that God saves them and not by works lest anyone can boast. When Satan tempts man to fall away from what the gospel states about trusting faith in Jesus alone he does an excellent job through the men who insist that Jesus is never enough for your salvation and you gotta do something else. THat Satan's a clever guy.
 

TurtleHare

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Who gives us overcoming of weakness then?

Do you want to attribute not sinning to Satan???



Christ's words:

Mat 13:21 "Yet he hath not root in himself..."

Christ clearly shows here in the Parable of the Sower that human preparation in a life lived is a prerequisite for the Seed of the Gospel to successfully take root...

Living a repentant life is the preparation needed...

That is why the FIRST word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is REPENT!!

Salvation is THROUGH repentance, and BY God...

Arsenios

Why do you keep giving this nonsense that without faith that turning away from sin is changing your mind about God in faith because it's just a false gospel. The men who don't believe in God are not repenting in a godly way but in a way that justifies them before them alone. Not by Jesus.
 

TurtleHare

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I disagree that we prepare to recieve the seed of faith, God freely gives and once given then it is up to the Word and us to grow that faith. Man has never been merely a spectator because God did give us free will and wants us to willingly choose Him and not just have it thrust upon us. As for election is it possible that that is done because Gods sees through time and knows exactly what we will do and if we will choose Him? I think so. All through the gospel it talks of mans role, for instance Jesus says those who love me obey me, not that they willl just do what they should.

Obeying is having faith isn't it? What? Faith isn't enough?
 

psalms 91

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MoreCoffee

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Abraham trusted in God which is the part you forgot to add to the above text which is faith that justified him before God and that is a trust which is what all believers have so that God saves them and not by works lest anyone can boast. When Satan tempts man to fall away from what the gospel states about trusting faith in Jesus alone he does an excellent job through the men who insist that Jesus is never enough for your salvation and you gotta do something else. THat Satan's a clever guy.

The passage says
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.​
 

Josiah

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"For BY the Grace you are existing having been saved THROUGH the Faith, and THIS not out of yourselves. Of God the Gift."

BY is the dative of agency, and God is the Agent...
THROUGH specifies the means of acquisition...


Welcome to the Protestant position (which is why I keep directing you to post 213, asking WHAT pray tell is horrible HERESY in what is stated, directing you to numerous Scriptures.


So it is NOT the case that Dead self is the "cause" or "start" or "preparer" of justification (narrow).... the DEAD do not save self, kidnap the Holy Spirit, give self life, make self justified. GOD does this. GOD is the giver. GOD is the active one. GOD is the Savior. GOD is the justifier (narrow). GOD is the giver of life. THAT is the Protestant position - anathematized by the RCC for 500 years, declared to be horrible heresy. See post 213.


I confess, I am ENTIRELY confused as to YOUR position - you have verbatim given the Protestant view (sometimes in the identical words Lutherans use that Catholics hate) and sometimes you have given the opposite, far more radically than any Catholic world. Maybe if you would look at post 213 and do what MC has for years refuse to do: Tell us specifically WHAT in it is HORRIBLE HERESY to be anathematized and condemned.... and if nothing is and you agree with the Lutheran view, note that. I CAN tell you what my Greek Orthodox friend said (and I think I can verbatim relate it): The Orthodox Church doesn't define all this dogmatically, and we speak almost entirely of what Lutherans call Sanctification (narrow) but there's nothing in the Lutheran position we would disagree with - and personally I'm amazed that the Roman Church has such huge problems with it." I don 't know about you.




"Ask and ye shall receive..." You ask, and God gives, and you receive...
The corollary is: "Ask not and ye shall not receive..." You receive THROUGH asking... WHAT you receive is given BY God...


There is NOTHING in Scripture that says justification is the result of a dead man praying to the God they deny exists for something they don't hold is necessary or is real. I know of no versed that says, "The prayer of the dead saves him." I didn't ask God to give me physical life and so around April 23, 1987, God granted my request. And I didn't ask God to give me spiritual life on January 22, 1988 so that God granted my request on January 23 (via baptism).

I agree with that Baptist preacher I refer to earlier who said of his "decision theology" and the every-Sunday practice of altar calls, "If you hear the Altar Call.... and your heart is beating and your palms are sweating.... and there's a part of you that wants to come on down - then you ALREADY believe, you ALREADY have the Holy Spirit, you are ALREADY a Christian and what you are feeling is that faith and Spirit moving you to action." Good Lutheran theology in that Baptist. The Bible specifically says that faith is "the gift of God" - not an answer to the Dead man's pray request (to a God he denies even exists for something he denies he needs or is available).




The heresy in your doctrine is that you insist that God Justifies IN ORDER THAT MAN CAN REPENT...


Perhaps you'll read post 213 and note where I state that. Because I don't recall EVER saying any such thing.

What I said is that Jesus is the Savior - thus Jesus (not any dead man) is the Savior. And that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life (not any dead man for self). Yes, all life that flows from having life flows from having life. Yes, those physically alive breathe.... but no, we are not given life SO THAT we can breathe, we breathe because we have been given life. We love BECAUSE we were first loved, forgive BECAUSE we were first forgiven. The dead one is not the prime cause, the "start" (as MC put it) the "preparer" (as you put it) so that it all depends and starts with what the Dead give to self, do for self - God being inert, careless, sitting in Heaven without interest, all hinging on the Dead giving self life, giving self faith, giving self justification, kidnapping the Holy Spirit. I hold that as false. And unbiblical. And destroying Christianity.




To ignore God's CALL to Repentance is to DENY Justification for those not repenting...

WHAT? It is you who insists God is inert to those who don't have spiritual life, who lack the Holy Spirit, who deny God, who have not expressed their sorrow to God (whom they deny exists) for violating His wise Law (which they deny exists) and looking to Jesus (whom they deny exists) as their Savior (which they regard as a falsehood) and look to the Holy Spirit (which they do not have) for direction and strength to live according to God's good pleasure (which they don't know, don't care about and deny exists).

Now, AGAIN, IF you imply that the "Call" as you put it embodies GOD giving life, giving the Holy Spirit - and repentance then reveals this new man, then we're on the same page. Note my earlier comment about the Baptist minister and "Altar Calls" and "Decisions for Jesus." But you seem to reject that and rather insist God is inert in this, the Dead do this favor for God, adequately performing a good work (in spite of they being unable and undesiring of such) which God rewards by justifying them (making Jesus irrelevant, Christianity wrong, and making justification not "the free gift of God lest any can boast" but the opposite - " the payment for a work done good enough that God rewards accordingly.") It seems, for you, God is inert - until the Dead Man has done what he can't and won't do - then GIVES nothing but only pays the wage that is due, so that the Savior is not Christ, the Giver of Life is not the Holy Spirit, the "work" that matters is that done by the Dead man for himself - not the Incarnation, not the Blood of the Lamb, not the Resurrection. Self patting self on the back, self looking in the mirror at self.


I don't know a single person on the planet that lacks remorse (well, they do exist.... they are mentally insane.... I don't know any personally). If that's what it takes, there's no need for Jesus. Or the Holy Spirit. And we have universalism (except for those mentally insane). But those without spiritual life.... without the Holy Spirit.... without faith.... they CANNOT (the Bible says) do anything in this regard. This dead atheist is not going to tell God he is sorry for violating God's wise and holy will, looks to Jesus as His redeemer and Savior, claim the victory of Easter, and having kidnapped the Holy Spirit (because He has not yet been given), looks to Him for direction and power to do all his faith reveals itself to do. I think you are giving WAY too much credit to dead atheists, confusing remorse with repentance, and simply eliminating God from the equation. But again, IF you are insisting the the Call (as you put it) carries with it the Holy Spirit and Life - then you are simply agreeing with the Lutheran (um, Protestant) position. The Bible says, "NO ONE is CAPABLE of even saying 'Jesus is Lord' without the Holy Spirit." Seems you have a dead man saying a LOT more than that - without the Holy Spirit, without God AT ALL. No God, no Savior, no Holy Spirit, no Cross, no Resurrection, no grace, no mercy.



Blessings


- Josiah


.
 
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MennoSota

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It's clear from your response below that you are blind to the works salvation you teach and how that teaching is not the gospel taught by God.
Who gives us overcoming of weakness then?

Do you want to attribute not sinning to Satan???



Christ's words:

Mat 13:21 "Yet he hath not root in himself..."

Christ clearly shows here in the Parable of the Sower that human preparation in a life lived is a prerequisite for the Seed of the Gospel to successfully take root...

Living a repentant life is the preparation needed...

That is why the FIRST word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is REPENT!!

Salvation is THROUGH repentance, and BY God...

Arsenios
Here's the full passage from Matthew (since you removed all context in your comment).
Matthew 13:18-23
[18]“Now listen to the explanation of the parable about the farmer planting seeds:
[19]The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts.
[20]The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy.
[21]But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word.
[22]The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God’s word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced.
[23]The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!”

Notice that there is no repentance required of the seed that falls on good soil. Second, recall that the farmer laid down all the seeds. The farmer, in this parable, is God. The seeds that will grow, grow precisely because God placed them in the good soil. That seed hears God's voice and understand what God is saying. Then, like any seed, God grows it to maturity.
What is not in the parable is ANY of the claims you make regarding pre-salvation requirements. Your requirements are anathema, legalistic and contrary to the gospel of grace.
 

Arsenios

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I confess, I am ENTIRELY confused as to YOUR position

I know...

Arsenios said:
The heresy in your doctrine is that you insist that God Justifies IN ORDER THAT MAN CAN REPENT...

Perhaps you'll read post 213 and note where I state that.

Josiah said:
Those who are DEAD,
who do NOT have spiritual life
or the Holy Spirit
or faith
or justification
CANNOT do good works.

Repenting from evil is a good work...
You deny their ability to repent from evil...
The people you described are called SINNERS, Josiah...
And Christ said He CAME NOT to call the Righteous, but SINNERS to Repentance, remember?

Because I don't recall EVER saying any such thing.

Because you are not connecting the dots...


WHAT? It is you who insists God is inert to those who don't have spiritual life,

God is NEVER INERT... You misread my post and did not register my correction to you...

God wills that ALL should be saved, remember?

I don't know a single person on the planet that lacks remorse

They are around... They tend to be dangerous...

But Paul did say of those repenting without God's Law:

Rom 2:14
For when the Gentiles,
which have not the law,
do by nature
the things contained in the law,
these,
having not the law,
are a law unto themselves:


Paul finds them acceptable, does he not?

AND...

You still have not addressed Paul's words in Romans 8:30 regarding Justification...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Notice that there is no repentance required of the seed that falls on good soil.

Did Christ say he came to Call SINNERS to Repentance through the Gospel?

Or do you DENY that Christ came to call sinners to repentance??

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Did Christ say he came to Call SINNERS to Repentance through the Gospel?

Or do you DENY that Christ came to call sinners to repentance??

Arsenios

Are Christians not sinners?

Those whom God chooses to adopt will gratefully respond in repentance. We, adopted, sinners repent because God shows us our sin.
Sinners that can't hear God will never surrender to God. They will rebel until they die.
 

psalms 91

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We are all sinners, does it not say that those who say they have no sin are liars?
 

RichWh1

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The passage says
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.​

James wrote that Abraham was justified before men; Paul wrote that Abraham was justified before God. “If Abraham was justified by his works he has something to boast about but not before God

We are justified NOT of works so no man might boast!



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MoreCoffee

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James wrote that Abraham was justified before men; Paul wrote that Abraham was justified before God. “If Abraham was justified by his works he has something to boast about but not before God

We are justified NOT of works so no man might boast!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There were no men to witness Abraham's works when he took his son and together they went into the wilderness with no one else.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:21-24)

Abraham's good work, the one explicitly mentioned by saint James, was done in front of one witness alone and he was to die so even though he lived and thus you could reply that he was the witness in truth he was not there to be a witness of Abraham's intended good work of sacrificing his son, out of obedience to God almighty's command, but was in truth intended to be dead and no witness at all thus Abraham's good work was to be done with no Earthly witnesses and not "in front of men". None would have known except that is mother would wonder what became of her son. So saint James anticipated any argument about witnesses as did God and saint Paul also in his letters. Abraham believed and acted according to his belief and his faith (for faith without the work would be utterly dead) was accounted as righteousness for him and God spoke well of him. Thus a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
 

Arsenios

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Are Christians not sinners?

Those whom God chooses to adopt will gratefully respond in repentance. We, adopted, sinners repent because God shows us our sin.
Sinners that can't hear God will never surrender to God. They will rebel until they die.

When a sinner is Justified by God, his sin is taken away from him...

Remission of sins is the pre-requisite of Justification by God...

Baptism is unto the forgiveness, the remission, of sins...

We can and do still commit sins, but these are abberrations from our Christian life in Christ...
Committing sins is not what Christians are called to do...

The Gospel of Repentance is the beginning of our Salvation...
The Gospel of Repentance is the Gospel of Christ...
The Gospel of Justification is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ...
There is no Gospel of Justification in the Bible...
Can YOU show me the Gospel of Justification in the Bible?

Arsenios
 

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Both James and Paul quote Genesis 15 where we read “Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness “

Abraham was justified by faith apart from works according to Scripture.

Romana 4:2-5.
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “ Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

Galatians 3:6-9 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ All the nations will be blessed in you . ” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.


Our faith produces works (cf Eph 2:8-10)

So the one who has been justified will do the works God had prepared for him/her. That is where works come in.

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