Justification - Part 2

[Arsenios]

I do NOT indicate that, or even have implied that.

Do you not say that JUSTIFICATION (narrow) precedes repentance, and that fallen man, whom you call dead unconditionally, is unable to repent without first being so (narrowly) Justified by God??

The Gospel says Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand...
YOU say: Be narrowly Justified so you can repent...

Thus yours is the Gospel of Inertia unto narrow Justification unto repentance...

I don't see how you can avoid it, Josiah...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I thought it was a quote from C. H. Spurgeon...

Are you an old army guy?

You are familiar with that quote from Basic Training way back when?

Do I now have to thank you for your service??

My life is OVER!!!

Arsenios

 

[psalms 91]

"Smoke 'em if you got 'em..."
[Old Army saying...]

Arsenios

lol I heard that one in basic training

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do you not say that JUSTIFICATION (narrow) precedes repentance, and that fallen man, whom you call dead unconditionally, is unable to repent without first being so (narrowly) Justified by God??

The Gospel says Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand...
YOU say: Be narrowly Justified so you can repent...

Thus yours is the Gospel of Inertia unto narrow Justification unto repentance...

I don't see how you can avoid it, Josiah...

Arsenios

I see that the old straw men are out in force again brother Arsenios. I browsed through some of the posts written since my last post. I suspect that Lazarus will be a walking corpse soon, just to be sure that he didn't do anything to obey the command spoken by the Lord. Such is the ardour with which "narrow justification" is promoted.

I spent my evening writing a web site for my parish. I sent a PDF of it for appraisal by whoever is in authority regarding such things ... It was kind of fun to do. Oddly I got the feeling it was my own work. Was it a good work? Possibly. It looked fairly decent to me

 

[Josiah]

Yet word order in Koine Greek is important... So the Evangel does NOT say: "BE YE BELIEVING... and then repenting" as you insist it means...

I do NOT indicate that, or even have implied that. I AGREE with YOU - the word "kai" does NOT mean or imply sequence, that "just because the word appears first does not mean it happens first" as you indicated. I AGREED with you, when Scripture says "repent AND believe" I AGREE with you that "and" doesn't mandate chronological order - it only associates things and association does NOT mandate causation. We AGREE there.


The word "kai" (as in the modern English word "and") is a very generic connector, it indicates things are associated. But association does NOT mandate causation. That's the flaw in the argument that MC rebukes and rejects and repudiates when the topic is anything else, but here employs as a foundational argument when speaking of Justification.

Again, one could say that generally for humans, breathing is associated with living. Being alive and breathing are certainly associated generally for humans. But it's absurd to argue that association mandates causation. Or even sequence unrelated to causation. It's just a silly fallacy - as MC himself otherwise insists, as as you yourself stated.

Again, no one on the planet argues that repentance is irrelevant or unnecessary. I'm just disagreeing with you that a DEAD man who denies that God even exist, who holds that Jesus is a pure silly myth, who denies that God has any wisdom or law, who is void of spiritual life, who is void of the Holy Spirit, entirely without God's involvement, STARTS things (as MC puts it, or "prepares" as you put it) the gaining of life by spiritu ally bowing before God (doing such without anything spiritual to one he denies, rejects and repudiates) sorry that he violated God's wise and right Law and Commands (which he denies exist or is wise), turns to Jesus for forgiveness via the Cross and the Resurrection (all of which he regards as false myths) and looks to the Holy Spirit (which he denies and isn't in his life at all) for direction and strenth in living a more Christ-like life. In other others, the primary cause is self giving self life, faith, the Holy Spirit, justification - it all hinges on one point, what Dead Self does entirely by himself for dead self. So much for Jesus being the Savior.... so much for the Creed proclaiming that the Holy Spirit (not self) is the Lord and GIVER of life.

Now.... if you want to say that the Holy Spirit comes to this man, and as a result of that the man repents.... well, now you are agreeing with Lutherans, but disagreeing with the RCC
which dogmatically states the Lutheran perspective is heresy.

Do you not say that JUSTIFICATION (narrow) precedes repentance, and that fallen man, whom you call dead unconditionally, is unable to repent without first being so (narrowly) Justified by God??

The Gospel says Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand...

Read what I posted to you. We're discussing whether the verse "repent and be baptized" MANDATES that repentance is the CAUSE of justification (narrow) and if there is a mandated chronological sequence declared in that verse. It is your opinion that the word "kai" has NO SUCH implication and that association does NOT mandate causation. And I AGREED with you.

Now, does the GIFT of spiritual life and the Holy Spirit come before repentance? Yes, IMO. If for no other reason that one who is DEAD, who DENIES God even exists, who DENIES God's Law and wisdom and even existance, who HAS NO God in his life at all, no Holy Spirit, who CANNOT believe and thus CANNOT turn to God (see post 213 for some of the verses), that one is NOT going to express his profound sorrow to God (whom he insists doens't exist) for how he has violated God's wisdom and Law (which he denies even exists) and turn a believing heart to the Savior (whom he denies even exists) looking in faith to the Savior's mercy and forgiveness (with faith he has doesn't have) and then look to the Holy Spirit (whom he denies and whom he has NONE of) to live (which he doesn't have) a more Christ-like life (Christ whom he denies). Ain't going to happen. And NOWHERE in Scripture does it say that the Dead saves self by repenting - and AFTER he thus has gained for himself life, faith, the Holy Spirit and Justification - THEN God comes into the picture and gives nothing because that one already gave it to himself.

IF you hold that Jesus is THE Savior, then JESUS is the Savior (not each dead man for self).... IF you agree with Scripture that justification is "THE FREE GIFT OF GOD," "the INHERITANCE of God," that "NO ONE can boast of themselves" then it seems right that Jesus is the Savior. And IF you stand with the ancient church that the HOLY SPIRIT is the Lord and GIVER of life, then it seems good and right that it's the HOLY SPIRIT that GIVES life - NONE exists before He gives it, so if NONE exists then there's NONE to do anything spiritual.

The WORK of repentance is to re-establish your relationship with God Who is Life and its Source...

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I disagree.

I believe that JESUS is the Redeemer, not each self for self. I believe that JESUS is the one who reconciles God and man - not each dead self for self. I believe that Jesus is the Savior. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and GIVER of LIFE.


THIS, many argue, IS the Reformation issue, the dispute.
Protestants argue that Jesus is the Savior, you that self is.
Protestants argue that it is the work of Jesus that results in Justification/Life/Faith/Holy Spirit, you that it is the adequate work of a Dead atheist for self.
Protestants argue that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of life, you that a dead man gives this to himself.
Protestants argue that Jesus is the Redeemer, Reconciler, you that a dead man does it himself.


See post 213. Which the RC denomination insists is heresy. I've asked you and MC to tell us all EXACTLY what in it is heresy. Perhaps here is the answer. Those who differ insist that SELF is the Lord and Giver of Life, SELF saves self by adequately performing certain works (as a dead, lifeless person who denies God and has no Holy Spirit). You look to self as the Reconciler, Luther said we should look to Christ. Many agree, THAT IS the issue. But often, Catholics will deny that and hold that actually they hold that Jesus is the Savior and that the Creed is correct, but then they often say just what you do. I was flatly told "Jesus saves no one."


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IF Salvation is a solo-act of God...


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... then Jesus would be THE Savior, wouldn't He? And the Holy Spirit would be THE Lord and Giver of life, wouldn't He?

And you would be right when you posted, "Our Salvation is Given by Jesus." See post 213


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THEN all we need to do to be saved is to be inert...


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.... which would mean the Bible is correct and Justification (narrow) is "the free gift of God" "the inheritance from God" "So that no one can boast of themselves." And the Creed would be right when it says that the HOLY SPIRIT is the Lord and GIVER of Life and that JESUS is the Savior. What a radical idea! It's called "The Gospel." See post 213.


I was born on January 23, 1988 and so assume I was conceived (God GIVING me physical LIFE) on April 23, 1987. Tell me, what exactly did I do in January - March of 1987 that resulted in my having life in March of that year, so that God gave me nothing? And I was baptized on January 23, 1988 - not conscience, not breathing - and I believe given spiritual life. What did I do between March 1987 and January 1988 that caused me to have spiritual life so that God actually gave me nothing? And when Lazarus was in that tomb.... rotting.... stinking.... what did he DO during those days that is the reason he came back to life so taht Jesus did not raise him from the dead? I think we have examples of those simply GIVEN.


Now being GIVING something isn't the end of anything (and that's NOT the issue here; remember the RCC and Protestants FULLY AGREE on the reality for those with faith/life/Holy Spirit, that's NOT the issue and NOT the topic of this thread). IF you change the subject from Justification (narrow) to the WHOLE of soterology, OF COURSE (everyone agrees!!! Always have, still do!!!!) yes - we play a role. NO ONE HAS EVER DISAGREED. Lutherans were not excommunicated because we fully AGREED with the the RCC on all that. The disagreement was and is the topic of this thread. See post 213. THAT is what the RCC repudiated as heresy, NOT our agreement that once GIVEN these things, we cooperate in our sanctification. You have at times indicate you agree with Lutherans... then you say things like the above that credit everything to self (without even a MENTION of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Incarnation, the Cross, the Empty Tomb - rather self saving self).

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[Josiah]

YOU say: Be narrowly Justified so you can repent...

Nope. Never said that.

See post 213. What I've said is that Jesus is the Savior (so the dead don't save themselves) and that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life (so the dead don't achieve this for themselves). Yes, repentance is not something the dead can or will do - life/faith does NOT start with what SELF does so taht SELF is the cause of it, I believe life/faith/salvation starts with God. Again, Jesus is the Savior. The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of life. Not each individual dead, lifeless person entirely VOID of anything from God, entirely VOID of the Holy Spirit, entirely VOID of any mercy or grace ... that it STARTS with self, that the PREPARATION that dead self does for dead self is the cause of them having life (not the Holy Spirit), is the reason they are saved (nothin' to do with Jesus). I'm disagreeing with that. So far, you've not stated what I'm saying (see post 213) that you hold is "heresy."



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[Arsenios]

lol I heard that one in basic training

Me too -
Back in the OLD Army days...
When men were MEN!!!
And not a bunch of SISSIES!!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

We're discussing whether the verse "repent and be baptized" MANDATES that repentance is the CAUSE of justification (narrow) and if there is a mandated chronological sequence declared in that verse. It is your opinion that the word "kai" has NO SUCH implication and that association does NOT mandate causation. And I AGREED with you.

The word order does NOT support the reading: "Be baptized in order to repent..." But a grammatical argument is no argument at all, and I gave Jesus' holy proclamation: "Because the Kingdom of God has drawn near, be ye repenting..." Mark 1:14 ... This tells us the proper response of those Called by the Gospel...

Now, does the GIFT of spiritual life and the Holy Spirit come before repentance? Yes, IMO.

And this because you regard repentance from evil as a Gift...

Yet look at Judas, who had all the Gifts, and ate the Body and drank the Blood of our Savior from His Own Holy Hands...

And he fell into suicide...

If for no other reason that one who is DEAD, who DENIES God even exists, who DENIES God's Law and wisdom and even existance, who HAS NO God in his life at all, no Holy Spirit, who CANNOT believe and thus CANNOT turn to God (see post 213 for some of the verses), that one is NOT going to express his profound sorrow to God (whom he insists doens't exist) for how he has violated God's wisdom and Law (which he denies even exists) and turn a believing heart to the Savior (whom he denies even exists) looking in faith to the Savior's mercy and forgiveness (with faith he has doesn't have) and then look to the Holy Spirit (whom he denies and whom he has NONE of) to live (which he doesn't have) a more Christ-like life (Christ whom he denies). Ain't going to happen.

You are describing me for my first 36 years on earth, and I lived a life of deep repentance from evil in my love of truth and reality while denying the existence of God and scorning the faithful as fantasy lovers of delusion...

And NOWHERE in Scripture does it say that the Dead saves self by repenting

Straw man again - We are but saying that God saves those who are repenting...

Why keep mis-stating our plain sentences?

We say God saves those repenting...
You say this means the repenting save themselves...

We do NOT say God ONLY saves those repenting...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You are saying that we have to be (narrowly) justified in order to repent...

Nope. Never said that.

Here is what you said:

Now, does the GIFT of spiritual life and the Holy Spirit come before repentance? Yes, IMO.

That should cover it...

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Do you not say that JUSTIFICATION (narrow) precedes repentance, and that fallen man, whom you call dead unconditionally, is unable to repent without first being so (narrowly) Justified by God??

Yes. And you did not respond to anything I posted in that regard.

The Gospel says Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand...

It doesn't say, "DEAD MEN - repent so that you will have spiritual life and thus do things spiritual and so you'll have faith in God (rather than reject and deny Him) and so that you will know God's Law exists and is wise and holy and just and so that you will turn to Christ as your Savior, seek His mercy and grace (which you deny) and be justified - making Jesus NOT the Savior and the Holy Spirit NOT the Giver of life." Nope. It says to repent (which is a good thing to say)... and says the Kingdom of God is near, which is correct. Tell me how this verse makes post 213 HERESY.... or tell me where this verse says, "DEAD, first you must repent and THEN when that's concluded, God will begin to work in your life."

YOU say: Be narrowly Justified so you can repent...

Nope. Never once said that.

Thus yours is the Gospel of Inertia unto narrow Justification

No. God does MUCH!

Have you again entirely dismissed God as irrelevant or as real.....? The Incarnation and Cross and Resurrection? The foundational/central point of Christianity that Jesus is the Savior (and thus no man is)? The ancient proclaimation that the HOLY SPIRIT is the Lord and GIVER of life? Have you simply eliminated God entirely from the equation and truth - so that what justifies is what DEAD SELF does - making Jesus irrelevant, in vain, a joke? Isn't it God in Scripture who said that if we can save ourselves then Christ died in vain? Isn't it God in Scripture that says that all this is a "FREE GIFT" from God? Isn't it God in Scripture that says that all this is an INHERITANCE (which by definition is something GIVEN, not EARNED)? Here again - once again - you have ENTIRELY, WHOLLY eliminated God, Christ, the Cross, the Resurrection, grace, mercy, the Holy Spirit.... constructing a purely humanistic system of justification, something not seen in any religion (except some froms of Buddhism).


OF COURSE, action is involved in justification (narrow) .... work is involved... and who does that is ergo the Savior (in this sense). So if we entirely eliminate God from anything and everything, making it about what the spiritually Dead spiritually do for self, then self is the Savior. But if we do as I believe Scripture does, affirm that GOD is real, that Jesus is the Savior and the Holy Spirit is the Giver of Life..... if we accept what the bible says about it being "the free gift of God" and "the inheritance" so that "no one can boast", then justification is because of the life, death and resurrection of JESUS CHRIST (there is the action..... Christ, the Incarnation, the Cross, the Resurrection are NOT "inertia"). I'm NOT suggesting we lift up NOTHING, I'm suggesting we lift up the Cross in contrast to the Dead lifting up the Dead and eliminating God. We ARE saved by works - and WHOS works determines who is the Savior (in this sense of justification narrow).

I don't see how you can avoid it, Josiah...

I avoid SELF saving self because it's impossible, it contradicts everything in Christianity, it destroys the Gospel and it makes Christianity wrong and Jesus a bad joke.

I avoid GOD being "inert" as you claim because I reject that God just sits in heaven and does NOTHING so that there is no Gospel, no mercy, no grace, no Savior, no life-giver, just the DEAD with the DEAD.

I hold that JESUS is the Savior. I hold that the HOLY SPIRIT is the Lord and Giver of Life. That means justification is done by Christ (no "inertia") and is (as the Bible says) "the free gift of God". The spiritually Dead don't give spiritual life to themselves or anyone. It is GIVEN .




- Josiah



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[Andrew]

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Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[Arsenios]

The Gospel commands us to be repenting, for the Kingdom of God is at hand...

It doesn't say, "DEAD MEN - repent...
Nope. It says to repent...
Or tell me where this verse says,
"DEAD, first you must repent
and THEN when that's concluded,
God will begin to work in your life."

Did not our Lord say that He came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

No. God does MUCH!
Have you again entirely dismissed God as irrelevant or as real.....?
The Incarnation and Cross and Resurrection?
The foundational/central point of Christianity that Jesus is the Savior (and thus no man is)?

I avoid GOD being "inert" as you claim

I was speaking of man being inert...
Not God...
So inert that he cannot turn from evil...
Or even desire to do so...

Man is fallen, and has lost communion with God...
He is not dead duck dead as you seem to claim...
He can willfully do evil...
And he can willfully do good...

He cannot save himself by doing either...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

I was speaking of man being inert...
Not God...
So inert that he cannot turn from evil...
Or even desire to do so...

Man is fallen, and has lost communion with God...
He is not dead duck dead as you seem to claim...
He can willfully do evil...
And he can willfully do good...

He cannot save himself by doing either...

Arsenios

Amen brother Arsenios. God is never inert, to think so is frighteningly close to deliberate blasphemy. And a living man is not inert either, being a creature made in the image of God he cannot be inert while still a living man.

Lazarus was a dead man, he truly was inert in his grave, his body inert and his sister thought it was beginning to decompose by the time the Lord stood outside of his tomb and was about to speak. Yet when the Lord spoke, saying, "Lazarus come forth", the dead man heard and was made alive again and came forth. What was the order of events in this miracle of life? It was this

• Jesus, our Lord, spoke a command "Lazarus come forth"
• Lazarus was made alive by the command and its content was somehow present in his mind having been heard by him either with earthly ears made alive in the instant of the Lord's speaking or by other means unknown to me
• Lazarus came forth

So evidently dead men can hear the command of God and respond to it if they are made alive by the command spoken into their mind/heart by God. Evidently it is not strange to find a man (or a woman) respond to the command of the Lord "repent and believe the gospel". So it is not odd to find saint James writing that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Saint James may have witnessed Lazarus rise from the dead. He likely saw many miracles done by the hand and the voice of the Lord. He doubtless understood that faith that does nothing and is utterly inert is dead, just completely dead, at least as dead as Lazarus was before the Lord commanded him to come forth.

The idea that human faith must precede repentance is wholly contrary to the gospel that the Lord preached and that saint James wrote about. It is a figment of bad theology. The truth is that repentance is as much a gift from God as life is and as faith is and that all these gifts come from God as grace that he gives in his call to an unrepentant and unbelieving world. "Repent and believe the gospel" is the command of the Lord and it has as much power to raise the dead as the Lord's command spoken to Lazarus. The gospel of repentance and faith towards God raises the dead as surely and as powerfully as the words "Lazarus come forth". On the last day the Lord will once again give a command like "come forth" that will raise all those in their graves. God's words do not return to him void, as the holy scriptures say, they accomplish his purpose without fail because he is omnipotent and omnipresent; no one can hide from him, none can shelter from his Word, and none can escape his judgement. Those who hear and obey receive life and those who hear and turn away receive condemnation because they turned away. The gospel is the basis for judgement on the last day and all men everywhere are called by God to repentance. No one will have an excuse on the last day. None shall be safe to say "but I was dead and heard no command to repent and even if my ears had the sounds pass into them I was dead and unable to respond".

 

[TurtleHare]

The example of Lazarus is about the command "Lazarus come forth" which was spoken to a dead man in his tomb. It isn't about salvation. It is about the nature of God's commands and his call. I am not sure why you think it is about either salvation or about walking out of the tomb being a cause for being raised from the dead. But you are welcome to explain it if you want to.

You think it isn't about salvation because you don't see that resurrection and salvation go together, eh.

 

[TurtleHare]

Dudella!

Nice to get the greetings out of the way!



The kind that cleared out all the debris in my soul, yet could not heal the wounding it bore...



I did not even think I was sinning - I was just trying to dig out a very deep something wrong in my soul... Now it happens to be true that what I did about that wound as an atheist is NOT something a Christian would do, yet I stayed on it wrecking my whole life around me to get to the bottom to find and heal its source...

And I got to the bottom... And it was not there... Nor did I find its onset... I tell ya, it was a big deal what I did, and I failed, but not before cleaning house in my soul and ridding it of all that was unhealthy... Except for the problem itself... At 34 I was prepared to depart this life without rancor... I had tried, and there was nowhere else to look... I had given it my best shot, and was content that my life was over... There are trials that come with that disposition, and after these, awaiting in the sure knowledge of the end, God came, that's all... One Christmas Eve... And I did not know Him... I thought it was a deeper level of myself... He came for the next two Christmas Eves... Finally revealing Himself AS God... And upon that day, my whole understanding went inside out, upside down, and backwards... It has been so ever since... And I live in, what I could only have atheistically described as irrational, Joy... And even then, in that exceeding Joy, I KNEW for a fact that my God is NOT the Christian God... For 14 years walking with Him, never alone, in converse with Him always, knowing He is not the God of the Bible...

Problem was, He kept bugging me to read the Book of John, so when I finally did so, he then told me that the same Spirit that caused this Book to be written is the One Who brought me out of the realm of darkness... I called BS on Him on automatic thought - It went "Well that's crap!" to the thought, then "Wait a minute, That was God!" Then "But that would mean that I am a Christian!" dismissing the idea... And then "Oh no... You mean I am a CHRISTIAN???" I was scandalized utterly... If I were to write an autobiography, it would be titled "Scandalized by God!" But that bio would scandalize most, so it will never be written...

I do not know anyone who has overcome the deep seated issues I overcame - People with my issues end up in back wards of psychiatric institutions, in prisons, or in cemetaries... It was a staggering walk...



What I did as an atheist to overcome my soul's weaknesses and pathologies was in fact real repentance, and God in His infinite Mercy, when I reached the end of that path in failure, did not despise me or my works to become a decent and good and clean and whole person despite being smothered in issues... I know God in a way that very few people I know actually do know Him... The EO Saints know Him as I do and way more than I... And every so often I bump into someone who does so know Him... He has hidden Saints in the world who are unaware of their functional role in God's ekonomia of Salvation for man... And some who are, but not so many...

First monastery I went to, I told the monk there that I did not come via the "inside passage" which the Church affords, but instead came through the storms at sea that kill most... He walked away, came back 15 minutes later, and we went to work... The Saints are my friends...

Arsenios

Merely overcoming weaknesses isn't including faith that is the true biblical repentance that God gives us now is it? The perfect obedient lamb was led to the slaughter and you deny him by claiming your own obedience in your overcoming weakness so that you can gain entry into heaven that way instead of the narrow way which is only found in Jesus.

 

[TurtleHare]

The faithful are called to do good works as the passage says (Ephesians 2:10) so they are not called to do "their works" but rather good works that God has prepared for them to do as their way of life. Good works are God's works. Together with believing in the Son of God - which the Lord himself said was the work of God - Christians do good in this world for the hope that is in them regarding the resurrection and eternal life and motivated by God's love for them and their love for him.

Good works justify men in front of men but it is by faith that we are justified by God.

 

[Josiah]

He cannot save himself...

Welcome to the Protestant view. See post 213.


Thus, the Dead atheist doesn't give himself life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification by repenting or by doing anything else spiritual. He cannot. God GIVES justification. Jesus IS the Savior. The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of life. Not dead people. The Gospel is NOT that the dead only have the dead - and God is inert and unloving and uncaring and inactive, each dead one must somehow create life and faith and salvation in himself by himself.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Good works justify men in front of men but it is by faith that we are justified by God.

Abraham's good work, the one explicitly mentioned by saint James, was done in front of one witness alone and he was to die so even though he lived and thus you could reply that he was the witness in truth he was not there to be a witness of Abraham's intended good work of sacrificing his son, out of obedience to God almighty's command, but was in truth intended to be dead and no witness at all thus Abraham's good work was to be done with no Earthly witnesses and not "in front of men". None would have known except that is mother would wonder what became of her son. So saint James anticipated any argument about witnesses as did God and saint Paul also in his letters. Abraham believed and acted according to his belief and his faith (for faith without the work would be utterly dead) was accounted as righteousness for him and God spoke well of him. Thus a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[Arsenios]

Merely overcoming weaknesses isn't including faith that is the true biblical repentance that God gives us now is it? The perfect obedient lamb was led to the slaughter and you deny him by claiming your own obedience in your overcoming weakness so that you can gain entry into heaven that way instead of the narrow way which is only found in Jesus.

I am sorry you feel that way...

fwiw - The narrow way is askesis...

Arsenios