Justification - Part 2

[Josiah]

TRYING to bring the discussion back to the topic...... seems some insist on diverting it to EVERYTHING BUT the topic.

The Gospel of Justification. The view the RCC in 1551 officially anathamatized and condemned as heresy and has repudiated ever since:


By "Justification" (narrow) we mean the ESTABLISHMENT of a new and different relationship with God, the GIVING of the divine gifts of spiritual life, faith in Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit. We do NOT mean all that results of these gifts and actions by God, what CHRISTIANS (those with the gifts of life, faith and justification) are called to do (that's Sanctification in the narrow sense) - in that, there is (and always has been) essential agreement between Catholicism and (most of) Protestantism. So the debate, the issue of the Reformation, the issue that so divides Western Christianity today has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with what Christians are called to do, those WITH life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification (as the Catholic Church itself has so powerfully stressed, it's how one RECEIVES that.


Lutherans teach that justification (narrow) is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE, singular, inseparable doctrine. THIS is what the RCC so powerfully repudiates, this is what divides western Christianity and has for 500 years.


Sola Gratia (Grace Alone). “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and all this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8, see also Romans 6:23, Titus 3:5, etc.). This places emphasis that our salvation (here in the sense of narrow justification) flows from God’s heart – not ours. It is the fruit of God's works/achievements - not ours. Grace in justification is God’s unmerited, unconditional love/favor/gift. God's mercy in NOT treating us as we deserve but of God's grace in giving us what we don't deserve and did not merit.


Solus Christus (Christ Alone). “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). “There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved” (Acts 4:12). “No one comes to the Father except by Me” (John 14:6). Christ IS our Savior and our salvation. It’s CHRIST’s perfect live, CHRIST’s perfect sacrifice, CHRIST’s triumphant resurrection! Christ is the object of our faith. In justification, it is not how much we believe or how good we believe but in Whom we believe; our focus is on the quality of Christ’s work rather than on the quality of our faith; HE is our certainty. We look to the Cross ( not in the mirror) to see the Savior. There is a life GIVER (as the ancient creed stresses) - and it's not dead self (1 John 5:11-12)


Sola Fide (Faith Alone). “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved!” (Acts 16:30-31. Also see John 3:16, Acts 10:43, etc.). This proclaims that His grace and salvation are embraced by God’s gift of faith. Faith in this context means to trust or rely upon. It means to have active confidence or reliance especially upon something “unseen” or “unproven.” It too is the gift of God.



For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia) that He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) that whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) will not perish but has everlasting life (Justification, narrow) John 3:16


"You were dead in your trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1)
“God is love!” (1 John 1:8)
“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16)
“God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies, Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8).
"This is our testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life, whoever does not have the Son does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12)
“God saved us not because of deeds done by us but in virtue of His own mercy, that we might be saved by His grace” (Titus 3:5),
“For our sake God made Jesus to be sin who knew no sin so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
“The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 6:23).
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your doing but it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8).
“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)
“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)


Our justification (narrow) is 100% the result of GOD’S heart, will and work – not our own. Nor is this a mixture of our works and His works so that Jesus is PARTLY the Savior and we are PARTLY the Savior (synergistic Pelagianism), no, Jesus IS the SAVIOR. If it has to do with salvation (justification, narrow) then it's Jesus' doing and gift. We are to keep our hearts and faith focused squarely and only on Jesus who ALONE is THE Savior. How spiritual life is the gift of God. All this is the free gift of God, not because of what the Dead do for self lest any should have reason to boast of self and render Christ irrelevant in this regard.



A word about faith…

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8
“We are justified by faith” Romans 5:1
“God justifies he who has faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 3:26


The word “faith” in this context means to rely, to trust. In its use here, it means to rely on Christ for Salvation (and beyond). It is the means by which we embrace the promise and the work of Christ.

Faith in this context is not just (or even primarily) a cognitive or mental thing, it means to place our trust, our life in another – to rely. When we ride in an airplane, we may not understand exactly how the plane flies – but we can board the plane and literally entrust our very lives to it. We may submit to surgery and to a surgeon whom we don’t even know (and who doesn’t know us) and have no idea what will happen – literally entrusting our very life to him/her. Trust is a key factor in lives (to not trust is to be paranoid). For a Christian, we trust our soul and much of our life to God. In salvation, we trust in His works rather than in our own, we look to HIS perfect life rather than our sinful one, to His death rather than the one we deserve. We are placing our lives in His loving hands.

Faith is not our doing, it is the ‘gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)




.

See next post, too....




.

 

[Josiah]

.... continuing

A word about OUR works… - the issue of Sanctification (narrow)


As noted in the post above, the "debate," the issue of the Reformation, the issue that so divides Western Christianity is not now and never has been what is true for Christians, for those justified (narrow), for those with the divine gift of life, faith and Holy Spirit (an issue theologically called "Sanctification" narrow). Everyone has always agreed that once justified, once given those Gifts, MANY truths come into play - including a life of humility, a life of repentance, a life of loving, a life of morality, a life of good works toward our neighbor, etc., etc, etc., etc. and that indeed the Holy Spirit we now HAVE directs and empower such (so that the CHRISTIAN response is synergistic and progressive) and indeed God rewards CHRISTIANS for this and indeed the lack of such may suggests the lack of justification or eventually may result in our wrecking our faith and thus terminating this gift of justification. No disagreement there, as the Catholic Church itself has so powerfully stressed for over 500 years. That's not the debate. The debate is about the application of the "FREE GIFT" of God - of life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification (narrow). The RCC called the Lutheran/Protestant view in the post above "heresy" - SO horrible it split Western Christianity over it.



On the one hand, Justification (narrow) is not the result of OUR works but rather JESUS’ works. He is the Savior; we are not. Because JESUS is the Savior, it is His works that bring about our salvation – not ours (or else, we’d be the Savior!). On the other hand, Scripture is clear that faith is never alone (James 2:17, Galatians 5:25, John 13:34, Philippians 2:13, Philippians 3:12-14). OUR works do not save us, but they result from our being saved – they are the result of our justification and not the cause of it. We love not so that God will love us, rather we love because God first loved us (Galatians 5:25, John 13:34, Hebrews 11:6). OUR works are not the cause of salvation but the result of salvation, and as such, are to accompany our lives as Christians. CHRISTIANS are called to great things! To absolute divine holiness... to love even as Christ first loved us... to service/ministry.... and much, much more! These are not optional! But these are what the justified are called to do, not what makes one the justified. The unregenerate are dead and can't do anything spiritual (cuz they are dead), but once GIVEN life ("I have come that they may have life....") then (and only then) can they begin to live and grow and mature. It's not the growing that makes one alive, but being alive means we can grow.



Apart from Christ, we are "DEAD in our trespasses and sins." Life is not something the dead give to self, life is the GIFT of God given to the dead so that they have life. Yes, Justification (God's works for us) and Sanctification (our works for God) are inseparable, but association does not even imply causation. Yes, generally speaking, the living breathe but it is not breathing that causes one to be conceived and have life - it's having been given life that causes one to breathe.


Messing this up undermines everything When Jesus is no longer the Savior, we’ve stepped outside of Christianity. When we are made our own Savior (in whole or in part), the result is not only a conflict with Scripture and the central affirmation of Christianity, but it results in one of two things: A “terror of the conscience” (as we realize we’re not the “savior” of self we need to be) or we become little self-righteous, condemning souls (because we think we are what we need to be). It results in the beauty and comfort of the Gospel being lost and our relationship to God undermined. In some circles, OUR works are added to the requirements of John 3:16 so that it reads, “For God so loved the world so that those who do “X, Y and Z” will not perish but be given what their works deserve, everlasting life.” The key factor then is not Christ but our performance of “X, Y and Z” – not His work but our work, WE become the Savior, not Christ. And we must worry if we’ve done “X, Y and Z” well enough (remember His call to perfection?), if we’ve done enough, if we’ve done well enough, if we’ve been sufficient. IF we answer “NO” the result is a “terror of the conscience” so that we never know if we are forgiven or saved or heaven-bound or not. IF we answer “YES” the result is often a prideful, self-righteous, condemning modern-day Pharisee. We must not mix our works with Christ’s works, the cause of salvation with the fruit of salvation. The result is the “peace that passes all understanding” and love that isn’t selfish and self-serving but truly of God.


Jesus is the Savior! We are saved by His grace and mercy, by His life and death and resurrection! Our faith, our rest, our certainty are in Christ! Our peace, our confidence, our certainty are in Christ! So Lutherans (and most Protestants) proclaim. It resulted in the third largest split in Christianity in 1500 years.



- Josiah




.

 

[MennoSota]

Do you think God is obligated to keep his promises? Did God promise to justify those who repent and believe the gospel? Is your assurance of salvation resting on God's promises? Have you repented and believed the gospel? Is God reliable? Is God obligated to save the repentant who believe the gospel?

You put the cart before the horse. The Bible tells us that those whom the Father has chosen will hear his voice. The rest are not his sheep. They do not hear Him.
MC, we have a fundamental disagreement. You believe that dead people can hear, repent and believe by their own free-will. I say that the dead can do nothing until they are given life by their creator. Thus, we can share the message of reconciliation to the spiritually dead all we want, but only those whom God makes alive will respond.
Therefore, your imagination that people will first repent and believe before God acts is...just your imagination. It's not biblically accurate. It places the emphasis on dead men to make their own choices and pick God off from the shelf at the "Which god will you choose" store. It is all man-centered and thus belittles God and His Sovereignty.
God must make a person alive in Christ. (His choice, not ours) before a person can repent or believe. God will forgive His children. That is His promise.
You, MC, imagine that the spiritually dead can function and choose. A spiritually dead person cannot choose life. Your premise is false and thus God will not be obligated to fulfill your false premise.

 

[MennoSota]

There is no child of God who looks around and gloats that others die in sin....and There is no joy in seeing anyone die in their trespasses. These two quotes from above of yours show that perhaps you mistake someone's wording to mean something it never did. I have not seen one Christian eager that someone else is not going to have eternal life...not here on the site nor here in person. I think you are mistaken in how you perceive things. Having joy over the assurance of salvation is not prideful and in no way does it mean that they're happy that someone else might go to hell. That's a horrible thing.

David in the Old Testament stated that he would go to be with his dead baby in assurance that God would save him and he would have eternal life. That assurance is not pride. It's not boasting. It's a trust in the Almighty God who wants His children to be with Him.

Edited to add...
After school shootings we read about some of the children saying they were grateful God saved them. That isn't boasting. And it isn't saying they're glad the others got shot. Looking to the Lord and trusting does not mean that they don't want the same for other people.

I don't understand what you are getting at. Why would anyone be eager for someone to not be chosen by God?
God, the Sovereign King makes that choice. We have no say in the matter.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You put the cart before the horse. The Bible tells us that those whom the Father has chosen will hear his voice. The rest are not his sheep. They do not hear Him.
MC, we have a fundamental disagreement. You believe that

We do have a fundamental disagreement but it is not the one you mention. That isn't even a matter of dispute. Dead people hear nothing. The fundamental disagreement is that you think that you know what I think when you have not really managed to deal with what I've written time and time again. Lazarus was dead. Jesus commanded "Lazarus come forth" and Lazarus did come forth. The command was in and of itself sufficient to wake the dead man Lazarus. The command had that power because it was God's command. Pay careful attention Lazarus was dead and then he was obeying a command from Jesus who is God incarnate. The command empowered Lazarus and gave him life. It was the will of God that Lazarus should rise and come forth and he did. The same is true of Adam. God created him from the dust of the ground. He was not a living soul. He was a body formed by God. Then God breathed the Spirit of life into Adam's nostrils and Adam lived. He became a living soul. God acted and Adam responded. That is the paradigm.

dead people can hear, repent and believe by their own free-will. I say that the dead can do nothing until they are given life by their creator. Thus, we can share the message of reconciliation to the spiritually dead all we want, but only those whom God makes alive will respond.
Therefore, your imagination that people will first repent and believe before God acts is...just your imagination. It's not biblically accurate. It places the emphasis on dead men to make their own choices and pick God off from the shelf at the "Which god will you choose" store. It is all man-centered and thus belittles God and His Sovereignty.
God must make a person alive in Christ. (His choice, not ours) before a person can repent or believe. God will forgive His children. That is His promise.
You, MC, imagine that the spiritually dead can function and choose. A spiritually dead person cannot choose life. Your premise is false and thus God will not be obligated to fulfill your false premise.

 

[MennoSota]

We do have a fundamental disagreement but it is not the one you mention. That isn't even a matter of dispute. Dead people hear nothing. The fundamental disagreement is that you think that you know what I think when you have not really managed to deal with what I've written time and time again. Lazarus was dead. Jesus commanded "Lazarus come forth" and Lazarus did come forth. The command was in and of itself sufficient to wake the dead man Lazarus. The command had that power because it was God's command. Pay careful attention Lazarus was dead and then he was obeying a command from Jesus who is God incarnate. The command empowered Lazarus and gave him life. It was the will of God that Lazarus should rise and come forth and he did. The same is true of Adam. God created him from the dust of the ground. He was not a living soul. He was a body formed by God. Then God breathed the Spirit of life into Adam's nostrils and Adam lived. He became a living soul. God acted and Adam responded. That is the paradigm.

You just made a convincing argument that all Calvinists proclaim.
God does it all. What is noteworthy about Lazarus is that no other person was called out of deadness. They remained in their deadness.
Yet, many, many Christians insist that they chose God. Why? What could possibly bring them to such a wrong conclusion? The answer is: The self-centered desire to be in control over all things...including over God, the Creator.

 

[RichWh1]

You need to keep Scriptures in their context and stop making your own pretext. When you take part of Scripture as MoreCoffee had done, it distorts the meaning of the passage referred to.

“God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance “




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TangledWeb]

I have read through this long two part thread over the weekend and want to ask why is it that if you're saying that the process of your justification could only happen because Jesus died on the cross then why doesn't the bottom line come down to the point that you are still saved because of Jesus dying on the cross ultimately? Or another way of asking is why are you saying that it's your works if those works could not have happened if Jesus had not died first? Isn't it the same as saying you're justified because Jesus died on the cross?

 

[MoreCoffee]

You need to keep Scriptures in their context and stop making your own pretext. When you take part of Scripture as MoreCoffee had done, it distorts the meaning of the passage referred to.

“God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance “

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am not a Calvinist, RichWh1, and the passage was quoted in its proper context in previous messages to MennoSota so in my last message I alluded to the passage without quoting it in full again. I do know that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Thanks for your message, it is always good to have people contributing to the discussion. God bless.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have read through this long two part thread over the weekend and want to ask why is it that if you're saying that the process of your justification could only happen because Jesus died on the cross then why doesn't the bottom line come down to the point that you are still saved because of Jesus dying on the cross ultimately? Or another way of asking is why are you saying that it's your works if those works could not have happened if Jesus had not died first? Isn't it the same as saying you're justified because Jesus died on the cross?

God saved people before Jesus came into the world and died on the cross. Moses, David, Enoch, Job, and Elijah were all people saved by God. So the cross is pivotal but it was not necessary that Jesus die first and then people be saved it was also true that God saved people in anticipation of the Lord's sacrifice on the cross. And the reason works have a prominent place in this thread is that James says that the faithful are justified by works and not by faith alone.

James 2:14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.​

 

[Arsenios]

I believe we do not take joy that humans will go to hell
but
we do appreciate having a just God.

There is a HUGE difference.

For you to imply that the Christians on this site are thrilled about anyone going to hell
is not backed up with evidence but only conjecture on your part.

You raise a good issue...

I thank God it is not a valid one...

No one has said here that there are Christians here who delight in God's condemnation of sinners...
You seem to think we have implied that there are...
I raised the issue to illustrate the trap, by bringing the Pharisee and the Publican into view...

The subject was "Assurrance of Salvation" regarding Righteousness given by God...

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Publican is directly related to this subject...
Because...
It shows the difference between two men in their approach to the Throne of God...

One has full assurance and ample reasons for it...
The other has NO assurance whatsoever, and ample reasons not to have them...
And it is Christ Himself telling the Story...

So my question for those of you who CLAIM full assurance of your Salvation...
Are you SURE you REALLY do want to go DOWN that path?

The full assurance person was condemned...
The broken hearted sinner was Justified...
Both by God...

I was profoundly serious in raising the issue...
Profoundly concerned for those who claim what they cannot claim...

Claim your repentance with diligence and obedience and love...
God is Faithful and will Justify you and Save you...

Please do not claim your full assurance of God's Salvation...
No one this side of the grave has that assurance...
Because no one owns God...

Arsenios

 

[RichWh1]

Those saved in Old Testament times had been looking forward to the Cross of Christ. Those saved in New Testament times look back to Cross. The crucifixion was necessary because “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin “




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Arsenios]

TRYING to bring the discussion back to the topic...... seems some insist on diverting it to EVERYTHING BUT the topic.

See next post, too....
Continuing...

I forgot - Is this your thread, Josiah? Were you the one who raised it to deal with these important issues? If so, please accept my apologies...

My concern with your approach which rejects the Latin Church's focus on works as the means of attaining God's Salvation/(Justification-narrow) is that it does not account for the progression Paul lists in Romans 8...

The beginning is God's Fore-Knowledge

Followed by God's Fore-Ordaining of those He fore-knew...
Followed by God's Calling those He fore-knew and fore-ordained...
Followed by God's Justifying of those He Called...
Followed by God's Glorifying of those He Justified...

Rom 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,
to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Your thesis is that there is no repentance unto Justification...
That God first Justifies and THEN man repents...
What is missing is the CALL of God to Repentance...
Which THEN results in God's Justification of man in Baptism into Christ...

Could you address this, because Biblically I thiink it hold the key to Rome's anathematizing of the Lutheran Doctrine rejecting works unto Justification...

Orthodoxy holds that the Call of God is unto Repentance, and the Gospel proclaims:
"Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of God is at hand!"

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Those saved in Old Testament times had been looking forward to the Cross of Christ. Those saved in New Testament tunes look back to Cross. The crucifixion was necessary because “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin “
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is a popular view...

So then there is no difference in Salvation Old Testament and Salvation New Testament?

Because Christ said that the greatest of the OT Saints is less than the least in the Kingdom of Heaven...

Why would He say this?

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Most of the bible was written either in Hebrew or Greek. Some parts are in Aramaic and maybe a little Latin is present in this or that part of the four canonical gospels and there may be a phrase here and there of Persian or Babylonian or even Egyptian origin. But for the most part a scholar who knows ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek will be equipped to read the scriptures in their allegedly original languages - I say allegedly original because it is possible that some parts of the first books of the old testament may have been written in languages other than Hebrew but translated into Hebrew at some time in the remote past.

In theology some words take on very specific meanings that are sharply defined in each Christian tradition. One such word is Justification. Saint Paul uses the Greek word "δικαίωσις" for "justification" numerous times in his letters but it is less frequently used in the other new testament books and, or course, in the Hebrew language a different word "צָדַק" is used and translated as "justification" or "justify" or "justified". But for some theologians the main focus for their tightly defined meaning for "justification" is found in saint Paul's letters.

In Protestant traditions the word "Justification" is sometimes taken to mean "Just as if I'd never sinned" with very strong emphasis on courtroom and legal explanations of the word which amount to something like "just as if I'd never sinned". In Catholic tradition that is not so.

Catholic teaching places more emphasis in Justification meaning "made righteous" or "made just" and the idea is that not only is there a legal idea in the word "justification" but there is also a real change in the people who are said to be "justified" and that real change is that they become - progressively - more and more just and righteous when they make good use of the graces that God gives to them in their lives. And because Catholic tradition keeps both the idea of legal and of actual change of status in its use of "justification" it follows that Catholic theology also places emphasis on real change in one's way of life and attitudes and words and doings as the actual meaning of "justification".

It may be interesting to have a calm and well reasoned discussion about these ideas and their sources in holy scripture as well as in the development of theology in Christian thought. If you're interested in such a discussion come on board and start. I will post some material from Catholic sources as the discussion goes along. I think I may be the only actively posting Catholic on CH so do not expect me to deal with everything that my Protestant (and other) brethren have to say about their own views nor to answer every objection that some Protestant traditions have raised against Catholic views (or alleged Catholic views).

If you want a polemic discussion about Justification and why this or that view is all wrong and evil then please don't raise polemics in this thread - start a different thread for that if you want to but leave this one for civil and respectful discussion.

God be with you all. And may we have a fruitful discussion.

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is here. by MoreCoffee Titled Justification

This thread was started by me with the post quoted above.

 

[RichWh1]

That is a popular view...

So then there is no difference in Salvation Old Testament and Salvation New Testament?

Because Christ said that the greatest of the OT Saints is less than the least in the Kingdom of Heaven...

Why would He say this?

Arsenios

The difference is that during the Old Testament times before the Messiah arrived the promise of a redeemer was in their Law Prophets and Writings.
We have the benefit of being born after the arrival of Messiah. The promise was made in Eden and fulfilled in Jesus Christ.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

That is a popular view...

So then there is no difference in Salvation Old Testament and Salvation New Testament?

Because Christ said that the greatest of the OT Saints is less than the least in the Kingdom of Heaven...

Why would He say this?

Arsenios

He might be saying that because Christians are under the new covenant in Christ's blood rather than the old one under Moses. He might be saying it because the promise to the faithful under the new covenant is to be made like Christ in the power of his resurrection while no such promise was given under Moses. Just saying

 

[MennoSota]

You raise a good issue...

I thank God it is not a valid one...

No one has said here that there are Christians here who delight in God's condemnation of sinners...
You seem to think we have implied that there are...
I raised the issue to illustrate the trap, by bringing the Pharisee and the Publican into view...

The subject was "Assurrance of Salvation" regarding Righteousness given by God...

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Publican is directly related to this subject...
Because...
It shows the difference between two men in their approach to the Throne of God...

One has full assurance and ample reasons for it...
The other has NO assurance whatsoever, and ample reasons not to have them...
And it is Christ Himself telling the Story...

So my question for those of you who CLAIM full assurance of your Salvation...
Are you SURE you REALLY do want to go DOWN that path?

The full assurance person was condemned...
The broken hearted sinner was Justified...
Both by God...

I was profoundly serious in raising the issue...
Profoundly concerned for those who claim what they cannot claim...

Claim your repentance with diligence and obedience and love...
God is Faithful and will Justify you and Save you...

Please do not claim your full assurance of God's Salvation...
No one this side of the grave has that assurance...
Because no one owns God...

Arsenios

You seem to miss the point of Jesus story about the two people. The person who pridefully expressed his relationship with God also imagined himself to be justified before God by his good works.
The person who was in tears was broken by the knowledge that their was no righteousness in him at all. He could never and would never be made right with God by virtue of his own works.
Arsenios, anyone whom God has chosen will be like the person who is broken by his unworthiness.
Note that God brings them to this point of recognition....and then they respond. The first person remains clueless about their corruption.
Arsenios, the parable you are bringing up actually destroys your argument and it seems you cannot see it.

 

[Arsenios]

This thread was started by me with the post quoted above.

Well, even so, perhaps we can address our Brother Josiah's complaint...

I didn't think it was his thread, but had forgotten whose it was...

So it is YOU who are the TROUBLEMAKER here!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The difference is that during the Old Testament times before the Messiah arrived the promise of a redeemer was in their Law Prophets and Writings.
We have the benefit of being born after the arrival of Messiah. The promise was made in Eden and fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

WHAT is it that the LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven HAVE that the GREATEST of the OT Saints do not have that makes them GREATER than the OT Saints?

AND...

Then WHAT is the DIFFERENCE between NT and OT Salvation?

The OT Saints were God-saturated in the Holy Spirit, were they not?

Arsenios