Justification - Part 2

[Arsenios]

Read God's word in its fullness. Let the whole word guide you. Cast off your denomination. Cast off your dogma.
Let God speak as He does in His word,
not as He is silenced by your church dogma.

Would that you take your own advice!

What was it Paul said about cutting off the cut-it-off Circumcision Party?

Gal 5:12

Would that were those troubling you also cut off...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

...by God through the atoning, substitutionary, work of Christ.
We know this by faith. Our faith is evidenced by what we do.
This is understood by reading all the passages on faith, not by reading one verse and forcing everything else to fit.

Thank-you -

We agree that we ARE Justified by God...

And that we are NOT justified BY our works...

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

I...by God through the atoning, substitutionary, work of Christ.
We know this by faith. Our faith is evidenced by what we do.
This is understood by reading all the passages on faith, not by reading one verse and forcing everything else to fit.

In post 694 I shared a video, its lutheran based but it reminds me of how you view justification, please take a moment to review the short video and tell me if thats close to your view

 

[MoreCoffee]

I...by God through the atoning, substitutionary, work of Christ.
We know this by faith. Our faith is evidenced by what we do.
This is understood by reading all the passages on faith, not by reading one verse and forcing everything else to fit.

The lone verse is the voice of God speaking the truth "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" it is a lone voice because God is one and God alone can speak this truth because no one else decides what justifies and what does not justify. But the verse is not really one verse alone, hear what the Lord says

• 1Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
• Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
• Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
• 2Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
• John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
• John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Many more verses teach the same lesson. The faithful are justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thank-you -

We agree that we ARE Justified by God...

And that we are NOT justified BY our works...

Arsenios

God alone justifies because God alone is capable of pronouncing the words "well done thou good and faithful servant" yet it is important to acknowledge what God says through saint James and through the prophets and apostles and most of all through the Lord Jesus Christ. A man is justified by works and not by faith alone; works alone cannot justify and faith alone is dead utterly incapable of justifying anybody yet works motivated by faith working in love - the love that God gave and that the faithful give in turn to others and return to God - justify the faithful as the Lord said. If you love me keep my commandments. It is apparently simple but in reality is is hard work to repent and believe the gospel to the saving of one's soul.

 

[MennoSota]

Would that you take your own advice!

What was it Paul said about cutting off the cut-it-off Circumcision Party?

Gal 5:12

Would that were those troubling you also cut off...

Arsenios

Indeed, he spoke for all who add law and thus nullify grace. Heed Paul's warning.

 

[Arsenios]

The lone verse is the voice of God speaking the truth "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" it is a lone voice because God is one and God alone can speak this truth because no one else decides what justifies and what does not justify. But the verse is not really one verse alone, hear what the Lord says

• 1Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
• Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
• Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
• 2Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
• John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
• John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Many more verses teach the same lesson. The faithful are justified by works and not by faith alone.

Indeed Adam FELL by disobedience to God...

Is it such a great stretch that we in Adam should rist through obedience to God?

Not that obedience saves us, but that through the works of obedience, we become saved by God...

Jamess 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.

We cannot conclude from this that our works justify us,
but that this manner of speaking means that
our Just God Justifies us according to our works of Faith...

There should be no surprise that the very first word of the Call of God to mankind by John the Baptist, Christ Himself, and Peter the Apostle, is the command TO BE OBEYED... (Or not -The choice is yours in this life) It is the command to be repenting from obedience to the rulership of this fallen condition... To be repenting from the rulership of death, of pleasure and pain, of life and death in this world...

Adam fell in DISOBEDIENCE...
We BEGIN our Way to Salvation by OBEDIENCE to the CALL to Salvation...

This obedience is a great undertaking, an exhausting undertaking, an undertaking unto death in this fallen world...

This is why, btw, Paul tells us that Salvation is a Gift of God, and not the wages of Obedience...

Because the Works of the Faith are SO exhaustive that one might compare one's own works to the works of another after Salvation and say: "Well, Carl, I did do a lot MORE works than you, so I am saved now and you are not..." This Gift is Given by God according to His Good Pleasure...

Yet the whole of it is not a systematically logical "belief system"... Because He also tells us that "From the days of John the Baptist till now, the Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence, and the violent are siezing it by force..." The Gospel, you see, is ALL about the Kingdom of Heaven, how it is attained, how it is retained, and how it can be lost...

So that one CAN indeed SIEZE the Kingdom of Heaven by Repentance, an act of violence, the willful violence of denial of self... And this because The Kingdom of Heaven is permitting (suffering) it to BE SO siezed... And remember, it is Christ Who IS the Kingdom of Heaven, AND its King...

So for these violent types, repenting is an act of violence in repentance from sin unto blood - Unto one's loss of one's earthly life... And he who loses his life will find it, and he who saves his life will lose it...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Indeed, he spoke for all who add law and thus nullify grace. Heed Paul's warning.

Heed your other three fingers!

Arsenios

 

[TurtleHare]

How does one verse build a theological belief? James 2 That's all you got?

 

[RichWh1]

How does one verse build a theological belief? James 2 That's all you got?

One verse doesn't and in fact cannot formulate a doctrine. It is a matter of comparing Scripture with Scripture.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Indeed Adam FELL by disobedience to God...

Is it such a great stretch that we in Adam should rist through obedience to God?

Not that obedience saves us, but that through the works of obedience, we become saved by God...

Jamess 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.

We cannot conclude from this that our works justify us,
but that this manner of speaking means that
our Just God Justifies us according to our works of Faith...

There should be no surprise that the very first word of the Call of God to mankind by John the Baptist, Christ Himself, and Peter the Apostle, is the command TO BE OBEYED... (Or not -The choice is yours in this life) It is the command to be repenting from obedience to the rulership of this fallen condition... To be repenting from the rulership of death, of pleasure and pain, of life and death in this world...

Adam fell in DISOBEDIENCE...
We BEGIN our Way to Salvation by OBEDIENCE to the CALL to Salvation...

This obedience is a great undertaking, an exhausting undertaking, an undertaking unto death in this fallen world...

This is why, btw, Paul tells us that Salvation is a Gift of God, and not the wages of Obedience...

Because the Works of the Faith are SO exhaustive that one might compare one's own works to the works of another after Salvation and say: "Well, Carl, I did do a lot MORE works than you, so I am saved now and you are not..." This Gift is Given by God according to His Good Pleasure...

Yet the whole of it is not a systematically logical "belief system"... Because He also tells us that "From the days of John the Baptist till now, the Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence, and the violent are siezing it by force..." The Gospel, you see, is ALL about the Kingdom of Heaven, how it is attained, how it is retained, and how it can be lost...

So that one CAN indeed SIEZE the Kingdom of Heaven by Repentance, an act of violence, the willful violence of denial of self... And this because The Kingdom of Heaven is permitting (suffering) it to BE SO siezed... And remember, it is Christ Who IS the Kingdom of Heaven, AND its King...

So for these violent types, repenting is an act of violence in repentance from sin unto blood - Unto one's loss of one's earthly life... And he who loses his life will find it, and he who saves his life will lose it...

Arsenios

It is fundamental for the faithful that good works are good because God ordains them to be done by the faithful. Note that it is the faithful who do the good works that God ordained for them to do. They are called the faithful because they have faith in God; specifically, because they repent and believe the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. And the good news is that God sent his Son to save sinners. Sinners need to repent. It really is simple to write these words, in that sense the gospel message is simple yet it is more than words that God calls the faithful to. More than words means that the simplicity of writing is to be converted into the labour of good works of faith done in Jesus Christ.

 

[MoreCoffee]

One verse doesn't and in fact cannot formulate a doctrine. It is a matter of comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Yes, not comparing scripture with scripture only but understanding each scripture by experiencing it in life - reading about how to swim will never teach what actually swimming can teach about swimming. The same is true of the holy scriptures, reading and quoting scripture will never teach what obeying the holy scriptures in life can teach. Experience gives depth that a two dimensional page cannot.

 

[MennoSota]

They are called the faithful...
...because they repent and believe the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
...Sinners need to repent.

Some people just refuse to accept that humans are dead in their trespasses and sins and that God must make them alive in Christ.
Instead they insist that humans do the work of reconciliation so that God will accept them.
Perhaps they wish to boast in their choice.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Some people just refuse to accept that humans are dead in their trespasses and sins and that God must make them alive in Christ.
Instead they insist that humans do the work of reconciliation so that God will accept them.
Perhaps they wish to boast in their choice.

I can't help but chuckle at your hatchet job on my post. What I really wrote is It is fundamental for the faithful that good works are good because God ordains them to be done by the faithful. Note that it is the faithful who do the good works that God ordained for them to do. They are called the faithful because they have faith in God; specifically, because they repent and believe the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. And the good news is that God sent his Son to save sinners. Sinners need to repent. It really is simple to write these words, in that sense the gospel message is simple yet it is more than words that God calls the faithful to. More than words means that the simplicity of writing is to be converted into the labour of good works of faith done in Jesus Christ.

 

[MennoSota]

I did not change a quote by adding any words.

I did remove the stuff in the quote that might make it hard to see what was being said.

What I posted is the fundamental statement at its base level. Does the original poster deny what was said?

How do dead people repent?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I did not change a quote by adding any words.

I did remove the stuff in the quote that might make it hard to see what was being said.

What I posted is the fundamental statement at its base level. Does the original poster deny what was said?

How do dead people repent?

The same way that Lazarus (who was dead) responded to the command of the Lord when the Lord said "Lazarus come forth". Is it so hard to understand that the call of God to "repent and believe the gospel" is a command? Is it so unclear that the command calls for response? That is why I wrote It is fundamental for the faithful that good works are good because God ordains them to be done by the faithful. Note that it is the faithful who do the good works that God ordained for them to do. They are called the faithful because they have faith in God; specifically, because they repent and believe the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. And the good news is that God sent his Son to save sinners. Sinners need to repent. It really is simple to write these words, in that sense the gospel message is simple yet it is more than words that God calls the faithful to. More than words means that the simplicity of writing is to be converted into the labour of good works of faith done in Jesus Christ. The commandments of the Lord are good and holy and altogether precious to his children. It is by grace that Christians are saved, through faith in God, they are not saved by their works or anything that they themselves had or did so there is no room for pride and no room to boast of achievements earning God's grace. The truth is that Christians are created (by God) in Christ Jesus to do the good works that God prepared for them to do as their way of life.

 

[Pedrito]

Post #136 (Lämmchen):

David in the Old Testament stated that he would go to be with his dead baby in assurance that God would save him and he would have eternal life. That assurance is not pride. It's not boasting. It's a trust in the Almighty God who wants His children to be with Him.

Actually, David stated that he would join his son in the grave – in the assurance that they would both be brought back to life from the grave by resurrection at some time in the future – as God had revealed within the Holy Writings that He had entrusted to the nation of Israel.

 

[MennoSota]

Can anyone find a quote where Jesus says, "Lazarus, repent and believe first, then come forth."?
I'm just asking for a friend.

 

[Andrew]

Some people just refuse to accept that humans are dead in their trespasses and sins and that God must make them alive in Christ.
Instead they insist that humans do the work of reconciliation so that God will accept them.
Perhaps they wish to boast in their choice.

Stop bashing Gods children Menno, no one ever said that their works justify them, they say they are justified by faith which justifies their good works. You make it sound like your brethren here at CH are absolutely ignorant of the message as if they came right out of the 1rst century as ignorant gentiles.

Let me try this...

!!!!!!ARSENIOS!!!!!
Do you believe that you are Justified by faith that is true and pure and which produces good works and fruit through the Holy Spirit in you and not by you alone doing "good" works to prove God that you are justified in the "faith", and do you agree that although you are made righteous by the atonement of Christ that you are still also a sinner?

Yes or no?

 

[Arsenios]

Some people just refuse to accept that humans are dead in their trespasses and sins
and that God must make them alive in Christ.
Instead they insist that humans do the work of reconciliation
so that God will accept them.

So do sinners need to repent?

Arsenios