Is there a Calvinist who thinks he/she is not Elect?

[MoreCoffee]

Josiah's not a Calvinist.

But he may think he is among the elect. Are you among the elect Albion?

 

[Albion]

But he may think he is among the elect. Are you among the elect Albion?

The point there is that the thread asks--logically enough, considering that they are the ones associated with the belief--if CALVINISTS think they are among the elect. Josiah, as anyone who has read his posts knows, is not a Calvinist.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The point there is that the thread asks--logically enough, considering that they are the ones associated with the belief--if CALVINISTS think they are among the elect. Josiah, as anyone who has read his posts knows, is not a Calvinist.

Don't Lutherans believe in some sort of unconditional election and Anglicans such as yourself?

 

[Albion]

Lets look again at the original question you asked--

Is there a Calvinist who thinks he/she is not Elect?
Calvinist folk talk a lot about TULIP matters, sometimes under the name "the doctrines of grace" and in TULIP is the topic of election. I can't recall a single Calvinist advocate who did not think he/she was elect. They all appear to believe that they are among the elect of God. Why is that?

Notice that not only is Calvinism specifically mentioned several times, but the TULIP construct that is purely Calvinist is included in the inquiry. There is no question, therefore, about which Christians are the subject of this thread.

 

[Arsenios]

One of the problems of unconditional election is that it is an entirely USELESS doctrine...

BECAUSE...

NOBODY KNOWS WHO IS (and who is not) unconditionally elected by God...

In practice, it means that there is absolutely nothing one can do to become one of the elect...

So in that sense, it is the ultimate do nothing doctrine...

Yet being numbered among the elect is THE issue of one's Salvation in Christ for this false doctrine...

I did know one man who grew up under a calvinist preacher... A preacher's kid...
And he grew up in church listening to his father's sermons...
And his father preached hell-fire and brimstone on the hopeless sinners...
And he preached the righteousness of the Justified...

And this little boy knew that he was not one of the righteous...
He identified with the wayward and the drunks and their kin...
And he KNEW that he was going to hell when he died...
He KNEW that he was going to suffer intolerable agonies for eternity in Gehenna's fires...

And he KNEW that there was nothing he could do about it...
So he started drinking at 15...
Was full blown into alcohol by 19...
And a slobbering mess by 25...
And he ran into an Orthodox Christian by chance...
"You seem like a nice person" he said. "Why are you drunk all the time?"

So the young man told him...
And learned the truth...
That God came to call sinners to repentance...
And not to gather the pre-selected righteous...
He now has a wonderful wife...
And beautiful children...
And lives in the praxis of the Orthodox Faith...

He is the only one I know who was a hard-line 5-Pointer who did NOT think he was one of God's Elect...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Lets look again at the original question you asked--

Is there a Calvinist who thinks he/she is not Elect?
Calvinist folk talk a lot about TULIP matters, sometimes under the name "the doctrines of grace" and in TULIP is the topic of election. I can't recall a single Calvinist advocate who did not think he/she was elect. They all appear to believe that they are among the elect of God. Why is that?

Notice that not only is Calvinism specifically mentioned several times, but the TULIP construct that is purely Calvinist is included in the inquiry. There is no question, therefore, about which Christians are the subject of this thread.

That is all true Albion. But are the 39 articles of religion not a kind of Calvinism? That is one reason for asking you if you are among the elect.

Josiah, as a Lutheran, is not exactly a Calvinist nevertheless Lutheran theology has elements that fit some of the letters of TULIP, the T for instance, the U too, perhaps I and P also.

 

[atpollard]

Faith only saves if there's something for it to grasp/trust/rely upon.... and since TULIP says it most cases, there is nothing.... then in most cases, faith is irrelevant to salvation.

Does it really matter whether those who reject Jesus and the gospel believe that it is true? [rhetorical question]
Satan has faith that Jesus is who he said he is and did what he said he would do, but that ‘faith’ profits Satan nothing.

Did Jesus die for Judas (the son of perdition according to the gospel) and Esau (whom God hated according to Paul’s letter to the Romans)?
Some scripture to support your position would be appreciated.

 

[atpollard]

One of the problems of unconditional election is that it is an entirely USELESS doctrine...

BECAUSE...

NOBODY KNOWS WHO IS (and who is not) unconditionally elected by God...

Another problem with the doctrine of Unconditional Election, is that it does not actually say what you claim it says.
Remember Unconditional Election just means that God does not save anyone because they merit salvation due to some personal work of righteousness on the part of the person saved. The saved are not “better” than the unsaved because of anything we have done or deserve, God chose to love us and change our heart for reasons having nothing to do with our merit and everything to do with God’s Grace.

The rejection of Unconditional Election is the belief that God elected (as the Bible says we were chosen before the foundation of the world) some people because those people deserved salvation more than the others.

What do you believe? Did God choose those that deserved to be chosen (the CONDITIONAL) or did God choose for His reasons having nothing to do with us (the UNCONDITIONAL)?

[To reject that God Chose some (ELECTION) is to simply deny what scripture says.]

 

[MoreCoffee]

The saved are not “better” than the unsaved because of anything we have done or deserve, God chose to love us and change our heart for reasons having nothing to do with our merit and everything to do with God’s Grace.

Reading your reply and the pronouns that were used in it would I be right to say that you think of yourself as among the elect?

 

[Josiah]

Does it really matter whether those who reject Jesus and the gospel believe that it is true?

Yes.

Since in TULIP, Jesus died for only a minority of people (and thus likely not you or me) faith becomes irrelevant. It is most likely that that faith is trusting/relying/embracing/claiming something that (for them) is non-existent. They are trusting literally in absolutely nothing, pure emptiness. They will go their whole life..... THINKING they are a Christian, THINKING God is gracious and me... merciful and forgiveness toward them because of the many promises of God, and being 100% wrong, because there is no grace, no mercy, no Cross, no Jesus, no salvation for THEM. They must therefore live in fear, uncertainty, terror.


The biblical, orthodox, historic view is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus: that God's mercy, grace, UNCONDITIONAL love is upon all, that the Cross is for all, that the incarnation/death/resurrection of Christ is for all - AND THUS FOR ME. This is joined with Sola Fide which means that where there is faith, there IS salvation for ME (as for anyone who has faith) - according to the Bible, most people do NOT need to go through life endlessly questioning of God cares a rip about them, if God is merciful or gracious or forgiving for them , if the promises of God applies to them, if their faith in Christ is actually embracing something or just pure emptiness.

Satan has faith that Jesus is who he said he is and did what he said he would do, but that ‘faith’ profits Satan nothing.

1. Satan is not a human. There are no promises of God toward angels - fallen or otherwise. The Bible never says that Christ died for fallen angels

2. Satan KNOWS that Jesus is the Savior, but we are never told that Satan is TRUSTING in Christ as his Savior.....





.

 

[Albion]

That is all true Albion. But are the 39 articles of religion not a kind of Calvinism?

No.

That is one reason for asking you if you are among the elect.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

Josiah, as a Lutheran, is not exactly a Calvinist nevertheless Lutheran theology has elements that fit some of the letters of TULIP, the T for instance, the U too, perhaps I and P also.

Elements of?

I suppose we could say that almost any two Christian denominations could be compared and the conclusion reached that there are elements of one in the other.

But as for the specific points you make here, I feel that you are mistaken about those letters in TULIP. While a case might, possibly might, be made for one of them, it is not true for most. And when it comes to the T, which might be the most likely, the Lutheran position is (to my understanding) not far removed from that held by the Catholic Church or any other communion or denomination that believes in Original Sin. The P definitely does not work for Lutherans.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No.


Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.



Elements of?

I suppose we could say that almost any two Christian denominations could be compared and the conclusion reached that there are elements of one in the other.

But as for the specific points you make here, I feel that you are mistaken about those letters in TULIP. While a case might, possibly might, be made for one of them, it is not true for most. And when it comes to the T, which might be the most likely, the Lutheran position is (to my understanding) not far removed from that held by the Catholic Church or any other communion or denomination that believes in Original Sin. The P definitely does not work for Lutherans.

In your last comment you indicate that Lutherans do not adhere to the "P" of TULIP, do you think that Lutherans believe and teach that a saved person can fall away from grace and be lost?

 

[Arsenios]

What do you believe?
Did God choose those that deserved to be chosen (the CONDITIONAL)
or
did God choose for His reasons having nothing to do with us (the UNCONDITIONAL)?

What we have to affirm is (from Paul's epistle):
1: God foreknows those whom He Calls...
2: God Justifies those living repentant lives whom He has Called...
3: God Glorifies those overcoming evil powers and principalities whom He has Justified...

So that it is your response to God's Call that determines your Justification by God...
And it is your response to God's Justification that determines your Glorification by God...

So does one's response ADD to what God does for you?
And the answer is clearly no...
What you DO about what God GIVES merely determines your degree of ability to retain what is so freely given by God...

For some the Seed is devoured by the birds of the air as it hits the hardened dirt on the road...
For some it gets choked by the cares of this fallen life...
For some it springs up eagerly only to die when afflictions come...
For some it finds deep rich well-watered soil in which it will grow and prosper and multiply...

For BY this Grace we are saved...
And THROUGH the Faith Christ discipled to His Disciples are we able to retain and multiply this Grace that gives Life...
And discipleship is the learning of obedience to the commandments of Christ...
And it is by this obedience that we attain to union with God...

As the Psalmist sings:
"This is the generation of them that seek the Lord...
Of them that seek the Face of the God of Jacob..."

Seeking God is obedience to God...
Which is the corrective to Adam...
Who hid from God in shame...
And disobedience...
In whom (Adam) we are born fallen and under the rulership of death...
But now in obedience to Christ we are finding Life...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

In your last comment you indicate that Lutherans do not adhere to the "P" of TULIP, do you think that Lutherans believe and teach that a saved person can fall away from grace and be lost?

Absolutely (if by saved person you mean a true believer rather than something else). Here is an excerpt from a website that covers most of these issues:

QUESTION: Can you lose your salvation, and, if you can, what do you need to do to regain it again?
ANSWER: The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod believes and teaches that it is possible for a true believer to fall from faith, as Scripture itself soberly and repeatedly warns us (1 Cor. 10:12; 1 Peter 5:8; 2 Peter 3:17; Heb. 2:1-3, 3:12-19, 6:4-8, etc.).

https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/faqs/doctrine

 

[MoreCoffee]

Absolutely (if by saved person you mean a true believer rather than something else). Here is an excerpt from a website that covers most of these issues:

QUESTION: Can you lose your salvation, and, if you can, what do you need to do to regain it again?
ANSWER: The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod believes and teaches that it is possible for a true believer to fall from faith, as Scripture itself soberly and repeatedly warns us (1 Cor. 10:12; 1 Peter 5:8; 2 Peter 3:17; Heb. 2:1-3, 3:12-19, 6:4-8, etc.).

https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/faqs/doctrine

Thank you, that was an interesting answer. I have little knowledge of Lutheran teaching so I rely on Lutherans to state their beliefs and explain them.

 

[atpollard]

Reading your reply and the pronouns that were used in it would I be right to say that you think of yourself as among the elect?

If you mean THESE elect ...

[Romans 8:28-39 NASB]
“28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED." 37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.“

... then “yes”.
Furthermore, you can be as well ...

[Romans 10:5-13 NASB]
5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

 

[MoreCoffee]

“yes”.

Thank you.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, as a Lutheran, is not exactly a Calvinist nevertheless Lutheran theology has elements that fit some of the letters of TULIP, the T for instance, the U too, perhaps I and P also.

You made this thread about hypothetical CALVINISTS (a very small sub-set of Protestants) and specifically about TULIP (a radical reaction of SOME latter-day Calvinists - not John Calvin - desiring to be the opposite of Arminianists). Lutherans were never a part of this. Lutherans aren't Calvinists or Arminianists (we're Lutheran)

As has been explained here at CH before, Lutherans agree with 1 point of TULIP (the "T") and just one aspect of the "U" (Lutherans hold to the GOSPEL aspect of election in full accord with Scripture, but not with the Law twisting of it make it affirm the Greek philosophy of fate and to make damnation somehow God's fault). Lutherans passionately disagree with all other aspects of TULIP. BTW, most Calvinists do, too. Often Calvinists refer to "TULIP" Reformed as "radical" Calvinists. At another website, a Presbyterian pastor noted that most Reformed Christians consider tulip to be a pretty flower and reject all the theological stuff of TULIP... they not only don't know what TULIP stands for but strongly disagree with it if they do.

There are already threads here on Election vs. Double Predestination so I won't rehash that here. IMO, the far bigger "issue" for TULIP radical Calvinists (what FEW there are) is not so much their theology of absolute FATE but in the "L" - limited atonement, the foundation of radical Calvinism, the dogma that God loves only a minority, only a few... that God extends His grace, mercy to only a minority... that Jesus died for only a minority (without leaving a list of whom is on the longer list of abandoned/desserted/ignored). Among other things, this makes faith irrelevant since there is no way to know if our faith is actually trusting something FOR US (since it isn't for most). In TULIP, faith is largely irrelevant, as it is also in the "P" as has been discussed repeatedly here at CH, already discussed why "OSAS" creates a terror and makes it impossible to have even a clue as to whether one is loved or saved (in spite of faith). Armnius (the heretic) went WAY too far and created a 'logical' construction in direct contradiction of Scripture.... these few "radical" Calvinists extended Calvin's theology to be exactly the opposite - and thus embraces an equally "logical" construction in direct contradiction of Scripture. Both are equally wrong, both are a terror, both go WAY beyond Scripture and Tradition, both equally contradict Scripture. True.... we have a lot of mystery here, a lot of questions we can't answer.... but that reality doesn't make either of these logical, unbiblical constructions correct. Both like to demand that it's one or the other... but it's nether.





.

 

[MennoSota]

You made this thread about hypothetical CALVINISTS (a very small sub-set of Protestants) and specifically about TULIP (a radical reaction of SOME latter-day Calvinists - not John Calvin - desiring to be the opposite of Arminianists). Lutherans were never a part of this. Lutherans aren't Calvinists or Arminianists (we're Lutheran)

As has been explained here at CH before, Lutherans agree with 1 point of TULIP (the "T") and just one aspect of the "U" (Lutherans hold to the GOSPEL aspect of election in full accord with Scripture, but not with the Law twisting of it make it affirm the Greek philosophy of fate and to make damnation somehow God's fault). Lutherans passionately disagree with all other aspects of TULIP. BTW, most Calvinists do, too. Often Calvinists refer to "TULIP" Reformed as "radical" Calvinists. At another website, a Presbyterian pastor noted that most Reformed Christians consider tulip to be a pretty flower and reject all the theological stuff of TULIP... they not only don't know what TULIP stands for but strongly disagree with it if they do.

There are already threads here on Election vs. Double Predestination so I won't rehash that here. IMO, the far bigger "issue" for TULIP radical Calvinists (what FEW there are) is not so much their theology of absolute FATE but in the "L" - limited atonement, the foundation of radical Calvinism, the dogma that God loves only a minority, only a few... that God extends His grace, mercy to only a minority... that Jesus died for only a minority (without leaving a list of whom is on the longer list of abandoned/desserted/ignored). Among other things, this makes faith irrelevant since there is no way to know if our faith is actually trusting something FOR US (since it isn't for most). In TULIP, faith is largely irrelevant, as it is also in the "P" as has been discussed repeatedly here at CH, already discussed why "OSAS" creates a terror and makes it impossible to have even a clue as to whether one is loved or saved (in spite of faith). Armnius (the heretic) went WAY too far and created a 'logical' construction in direct contradiction of Scripture.... these few "radical" Calvinists extended Calvin's theology to be exactly the opposite - and thus embraces an equally "logical" construction in direct contradiction of Scripture. Both are equally wrong, both are a terror, both go WAY beyond Scripture and Tradition, both equally contradict Scripture. True.... we have a lot of mystery here, a lot of questions we can't answer.... but that reality doesn't make either of these logical, unbiblical constructions correct. Both like to demand that it's one or the other... but it's nether.





.

You wrote:
As has been explained here at CH before, Lutherans agree with 1 point of TULIP (the "T") and just one aspect of the "U"

You don't believe in Unmerited Choice? Do people get to heaven by their good works?
You don't believe in Limited Atonement? Unlimited Atonement means either all (universal) are saved...or you merit your salvation by works.
You don't believe in Irresistible Grace? Is man's will stronger than God's will?
You don't believe in the Persevere of the saints? Does God abandon His lost sheep and not find them?

I am amazed at your disregard for Sola Scriptura, Josiah. You claim to follow the Solas, yet you continually deny them in your actual practice.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You made this thread about hypothetical CALVINISTS (a very small sub-set of Protestants) and specifically about TULIP (a radical reaction of SOME latter-day Calvinists - not John Calvin - desiring to be the opposite of Arminianists). Lutherans were never a part of this. Lutherans aren't Calvinists or Arminianists (we're Lutheran)

As has been explained here at CH before, Lutherans agree with 1 point of TULIP (the "T") and just one aspect of the "U" (Lutherans hold to the GOSPEL aspect of election in full accord with Scripture, but not with the Law twisting of it make it affirm the Greek philosophy of fate and to make damnation somehow God's fault). Lutherans passionately disagree with all other aspects of TULIP. BTW, most Calvinists do, too. Often Calvinists refer to "TULIP" Reformed as "radical" Calvinists. At another website, a Presbyterian pastor noted that most Reformed Christians consider tulip to be a pretty flower and reject all the theological stuff of TULIP... they not only don't know what TULIP stands for but strongly disagree with it if they do.

There are already threads here on Election vs. Double Predestination so I won't rehash that here. IMO, the far bigger "issue" for TULIP radical Calvinists (what FEW there are) is not so much their theology of absolute FATE but in the "L" - limited atonement, the foundation of radical Calvinism, the dogma that God loves only a minority, only a few... that God extends His grace, mercy to only a minority... that Jesus died for only a minority (without leaving a list of whom is on the longer list of abandoned/desserted/ignored). Among other things, this makes faith irrelevant since there is no way to know if our faith is actually trusting something FOR US (since it isn't for most). In TULIP, faith is largely irrelevant, as it is also in the "P" as has been discussed repeatedly here at CH, already discussed why "OSAS" creates a terror and makes it impossible to have even a clue as to whether one is loved or saved (in spite of faith). Armnius (the heretic) went WAY too far and created a 'logical' construction in direct contradiction of Scripture.... these few "radical" Calvinists extended Calvin's theology to be exactly the opposite - and thus embraces an equally "logical" construction in direct contradiction of Scripture. Both are equally wrong, both are a terror, both go WAY beyond Scripture and Tradition, both equally contradict Scripture. True.... we have a lot of mystery here, a lot of questions we can't answer.... but that reality doesn't make either of these logical, unbiblical constructions correct. Both like to demand that it's one or the other... but it's nether.

You wrote:
As has been explained here at CH before, Lutherans agree with 1 point of TULIP (the "T") and just one aspect of the "U"

You don't believe in Unmerited Choice? Do people get to heaven by their good works?
You don't believe in Limited Atonement? Unlimited Atonement means either all (universal) are saved...or you merit your salvation by works.
You don't believe in Irresistible Grace? Is man's will stronger than God's will?
You don't believe in the Persevere of the saints? Does God abandon His lost sheep and not find them?

I am amazed at your disregard for Sola Scriptura, Josiah. You claim to follow the Solas, yet you continually deny them in your actual practice.

:Nooo:

:no:

:=-0: