Is it faith and works?

[George]

Or is it faith?

 

[Rens]

Faith without works is dead.

 

[psalms 91]

Faith without works is dead.

Yup

 

[Lamb]

We are all saved in the same way and that is by faith through grace. Works come after but do not contribute to salvation. It is a response. Who needs our good works? God doesn't need them but our neighbors do. We do good works to show love to God (by faith) and to show love to our neighbor who need them.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's grace.

Grace makes faith and works. Grace doesn't do faith alone. Grace doesn't do works alone either.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We are all saved in the same way and that is by faith through grace.

It's by grace through faith for good works. You remember ... Ephesians 2:8-10

Works come after but do not contribute to salvation. It is a response. Who needs our good works? God doesn't need them but our neighbors do. We do good works to show love to God (by faith) and to show love to our neighbor who need them.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Faith without works is dead.

Yes, but who's working?

 

[psalms 91]

We are prompted by the Holy Spirit to do good works, the works do not save us but without them I question salvation

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, but who's working?

Got a theory?

 

[Rens]

Faith also works for you like a slave.

 

[George]

What about for those who say works can be left out, that all you need is faith and nothing more?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What about for those who say works can be left out, that all you need is faith and nothing more?

Those people are mistaken if they teach that faith alone is all you need.

 

[Rens]

If you have faith but never act on it and confess Jesus as Lord but say ah well I believe in Jesus but I call Him Krishna you're not saved.

 

[Lamb]

What about for those who say works can be left out, that all you need is faith and nothing more?

The Holy Spirit guides the faithful into doing the works He has set aside for man to do. Those who go about saying, "Well he has faith but no works" is forgetting about the Holy Spirit who is working within that man and isn't seeing what the Holy Spirit sees. Works isn't the cause of our salvation!

 

[Ackbach]

Paul is (of course) correct in Ephesians 2 when he writes that we are justified (declared righteous) before God by grace through faith, and not by works.

James is (of course) also correct in James 2:24 when he writes that "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

How can that be? Aren't they saying the opposite? By no means. Paul and James are not using the word "justification" or "justified" the same way. Paul is talking about being justified before God. This is in the context, where other people are not mentioned at all. It's all what God has done for you in Ephesians 2. But in James 2, the context shows that James is talking about showing your faith to other people. That is, other mere human beings. Not God. James 2:18 shows this, among other verses. James is talking about showing other people that you have faith.

When it comes to our justification before God, our works have only this to do with it: that they are what needs justifying. They are all bad works! We have no good works to bring before God that He might justify us on the basis of them. This is what Paul is saying in Ephesians 2. What James is saying, and what others have said before in this thread, is that if we are justified before God, that is by faith, and that faith will work its way out in good works. Our good works are thus a consequence of our faith, and not a cause of it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Paul is (of course) correct in Ephesians 2 when he writes that we are justified (declared righteous) before God by grace through faith, and not by works.

Not Justified but saved. We are saved by grace through faith ... to do good works Ephesians 2:8-10

James is (of course) also correct in James 2:24 when he writes that "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

How can that be? Aren't they saying the opposite? By no means. Paul and James are not using the word "justification" or "justified" the same way. Paul is talking about being justified before God. This is in the context, where other people are not mentioned at all. It's all what God has done for you in Ephesians 2. But in James 2, the context shows that James is talking about showing your faith to other people. That is, other mere human beings. Not God. James 2:18 shows this, among other verses. James is talking about showing other people that you have faith.

When it comes to our justification before God, our works have only this to do with it: that they are what needs justifying. They are all bad works! We have no good works to bring before God that He might justify us on the basis of them. This is what Paul is saying in Ephesians 2. What James is saying, and what others have said before in this thread, is that if we are justified before God, that is by faith, and that faith will work its way out in good works. Our good works are thus a consequence of our faith, and not a cause of it.

James is right because faith is not alone among the faithful. Faith is alone in the demons who "believe (have faith) and tremble. James 2:19.

The works that Justify are the works of grace that are born of a lively faith. Thus one is truly saved by grace through faith which is given to the faithful so that they may do good works. One cannot rightly divide the word of truth without understanding that the one essential for salvation is grace.

 

[Lamb]

Not Justified but saved. We are saved by grace through faith ... to do good works Ephesians 2:8-10



James is right because faith is not alone among the faithful. Faith is alone in the demons who "believe (have faith) and tremble. James 2:19.

The works that Justify are the works of grace that are born of a lively faith. Thus one is truly saved by grace through faith which is given to the faithful so that they may do good works. One cannot rightly divide the word of truth without understanding that the one essential for salvation is grace.

These things are true and ultimately it shows that the Savior saves. We don't save ourselves. Our good works aren't for salvation. Someone who dies after receiving Christ and hasn't done any good works still receives salvation and will have eternal life because we are saved by grace through faith. If he had lived the Holy Spirit would have guided him into doing works but not for gain.

 

[Ackbach]

Not Justified but saved. We are saved by grace through faith ... to do good works Ephesians 2:8-10

It winds up being the same thing. Because of the golden chain of salvation (ordo salutis), all those who are justified will be adopted, sanctified, and glorified (finally saved). God is a just God. If someone is justified, he will be glorified. On the other hand, if someone is never justified, they can never be glorified. Again, it would be unjust of God to do so. So the set of all people who are or will be justified and the set of all people who are or will be glorified are precisely the same set.

James is right because faith is not alone among the faithful. Faith is alone in the demons who "believe (have faith) and tremble. James 2:19.

I don't think I would use the word "faith" in quite the same way. The demons have no element of "trust" in their belief. They have some knowledge, but little to no assent, and certainly no trust. It's very far from a believing faith.

The works that Justify...

I'm assuming you mean "justify before other men"?

...are the works of grace that are born of a lively faith. Thus one is truly saved by grace through faith which is given to the faithful...

When someone is initially given faith, that person is not, at that moment, already a faithful person. Far from it: that person is lawless, a covenant-breaker. The biblical picture here is that that person is a dead man. Dead men don't do things. They have to be resurrected first.

... so that they may do good works. One cannot rightly divide the word of truth without understanding that the one essential for salvation is grace.

I'd agree with that.

A lot of this discussion boils down to the distinction (but not separation) between justification and sanctification.

Justification is an act of God’s free grace unto sinners, in which he pardoneth all their sins, accepteth and accounteth their persons righteous in his sight; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but only for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God imputed to them, and received by faith alone. - Westminster Larger Catechism (WLC) Answer 70.

Sanctification is a work of God’s grace, whereby they whom God hath, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, renewed in their whole man after the image of God; having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts, and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened, as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life. - WLC Answer 75.

This is a very careful and important distinction. Any good works we ever do have nothing whatsoever to do with our justification. We simply cannot contribute to our justification. Sanctification, which always follows justification, is another story. We work at our sanctification, and God works in it. It's both, not just one or the other. We are utterly dependent on God's strength to do good works - and we must do them.

 

[visionary]

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Works are evidence of the convictions, transformations, conversions, and reformations, for without evidence, there is no proof of faith.

 

[Lamb]

Concerning the demons, they cannot have faith because our faith trusts in the Savior and one was not provided for them.