Infant Baptism

[Josiah]

I

That appears to rule infant baptism out as efficacious.

Well.... I don't think anyone says that Baptism - AS AN ACTION - saves. Those who believe that Baptism is a means of grace believe that THROUGH Baptism, God can do certain things (including granting faith). Let me use this parallel: Does the ACT of READING the Bible (that ACTION per se) result in salvation? No one known to me thinks so, but many believe that God CAN USE those words to convey His gift of faith to that person. See the difference? But this thread is not about whether in Baptism God does something or if it's a worthless waste of time, it's about INFANT baptism, a PRACTICE, the view that there is no mandated minimum age requirement below which we are in Scripture forbidden, prohibited from baptizing - THAT is what we're discussing.

In fact, in the context of the times in which the statement was uttered, the Greek word translated “believeth” carries the sense of entrusting oneself to, as opposed to a mere mental assent.

Yes, it carries the sense of trusting. And of course, such trust is "the gift of God." So, perhaps the question would be: "Is God rendered impotent by those under the age of X, so that if one is under that age, God cannot give them faith?" BUT, that would be a question for a different thread, THIS one is not: "Is God Rendered Impotent by Those Under a Certain Age?" The issue here is INFANT baptism: is there some biblical mandate that forbids and prohibit baptism for those under the age of X (whatever age that is)? THAT'S the issue here.


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[Josiah]

according to some who cannot show a single scripture to back that up .

You have been wholly unable to support that there is a mandate in Scripture that FIRST one must repent.... and AFTER THAT, that one may be baptized (but not otherwise): your point that repentance of the receiver is a MANDATE before they can be baptized has been shown to be wholly baseless and unsupported by Scripture. You've often pulled out and isolated the verse, "Repent and be baptized" to prove this mandate of yours - but you've admitted the word is "AND" and not "THEN" and admitted that the word "and" in no way mandates (or even implies) order - thus you've admitted your whole premise is baseless. Now..... you've insisted that YOUR opinion that what YOU call "common sense" which YOU opinion that YOU have implies such a mandate, but God doesn't.



Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

... the same place where it says to dunk folks in a tank behind the pulpit, for those being baptized to wear a special robe.... The same place where it says that Native Americans or Germans or Koreans may be baptized.... the same place where it says to have youth groups.... the same place where it says to have websites.... I think it's a dangerous rubric to conclude things are forbidden unless they are specifically mandated: we'd not be able to be posting on the internet if that rubric were to be embraced. See my point?


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.

Of course I see it, that was in response to a psot that was adamant the other way. God gave us reasoning and good sense to use and where something isnt specifically spelled out we should search for the nuances of scripture and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the true meaning of a verse or section of scripture

 

[Josiah]

Of course I see it, that was in response to a psot that was adamant the other way. God gave us reasoning and good sense to use and where something isnt specifically spelled out we should search for the nuances of scripture and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the true meaning of a verse or section of scripture

Thank you. I guess I look at that issue this way....

1. I see Scripture as belonging to US (the whole corpus of believers - the 2.2 billion alive now joined equally with an even greater number now in heaven) ALL of us TOGETHER, that God leads US (not just me). So, IF there is something that seems open (and I'm not of the opinion THIS is such a case), I look to the historic consensus of the church - God's people whom God together leads. Frankly, I don 't put a whole lot of stock in MY personal, individual "good sense" and "reasoning" LOL

2. This is the Protestant sense of "Tradition" and of course it's a key aspect to the opening post, to the issue we are discussing. It seems for 1500 years, all Christians together embraced that the Great Commission does not forbid children from being baptized (again, reference the opening post)... then, quick out of the blue, about 500 years ago.... a FEW (really, a tiny few) German Anabaptists suddenly came to the opposite view: that Scripture forbids those under the age of X from being Baptized (but evidently doesn't forbid them from being taught). To ME..... those insisting that all Christians for 1500 years together were wrong probably have the "burden of proof." Let me use this example: for 2000 years, we've held that Paul's 13 Letters in the NT are Scriptural, canonical. Let's say a 13 year old boy from upstate New York suddenly - quite of the blue - declares that the Bible nowhere says that those letters are canonical, that all Christians together for 2000 years where wrong, and so Paul's Letters should be dropped from the Bible. Okay.... point heard..... but would you agree that boy (and any of his few followers) would have to rather clearly substantiate why all Christians for 2000 years have been so very wrong? Again, I reference the opening post....

3. I do not deny that it's POSSIBLE we could get to heaven and Christ would say, "Hey, why did you baptize and teach those under the age of X when I nowhere specifically, particularly TOLD you to include such younglings? You wasted good water!" I think that's theoretically possible (but then I'd be standing with ALL Christians before 1550, and MOST since then!)..... but I think it's MORE possible that a fairly small minority of Christians might go to heaven and Christ might say, "Hey, why did you withhold baptism from these little ones whom I love and for whom I shed my blood; why did you create a prohibition that I never made?" See my point?


See my point?



Pax


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

In Post #72 MoreCoffee asked:

Where does holy scripture say that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God"?​

Well, the following is offered for consideration:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.​

That appears to rule infant baptism out as efficacious.

In fact, in the context of the times in which the statement was uttered, the Greek word translated “believeth” carries the sense of entrusting oneself to, as opposed to a mere mental assent.

Continued ...

Mark 16:16 tells me that baptism is connected to the idea of being saved and that unbelief is connected to the idea of being damned. There's nothing in the verse that teaches that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God". You haven't explained where holy scripture teaches that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God". Is there any passages that teaches that?

 

[Alithis]

You have been wholly unable to support that there is a mandate in Scripture that FIRST one must repent.... and AFTER THAT, that one may be baptized (but not otherwise): your point that repentance of the receiver is a MANDATE before they can be baptized has been shown to be wholly baseless and unsupported by Scripture. You've often pulled out and isolated the verse, "Repent and be baptized" to prove this mandate of yours - but you've admitted the word is "AND" and not "THEN" and admitted that the word "and" in no way mandates (or even implies) order - thus you've admitted your whole premise is baseless. Now..... you've insisted that YOUR opinion that what YOU call "common sense" which YOU opinion that YOU have implies such a mandate, but God doesn't.



Thank you.


- Josiah

"you say "i have been unable to support that we are to repent and be baptised ..????

luke 24. "... and He (JESUS)said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. "You are witnesses of these things.…" here we see that repentance for the forgiveness of sin is declared by the lord JESUS .

acts 2- "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness(remission) of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
And we see here (not single verses but supported through out the entire scripture that NO WHERE in scripture does god forgive NON repentance . ) that baptism is for the remission sin .. Sin which JESUS said .. is to be repented from in order to receive forgivness (to which he adds .. "neither do i condemn you go and sin no more " )

so there it is yet again - shown to you in plain scripture - i even made it blue for you.
so since a baby cannot repent ..telling then they are saved becaseu they were baptised as a child -is a lie .
this is the same reason we do not baptize the dead as some false religions do .
we cannot annul gods word by imposing traditions over it .

now perhaps you would like to support your opposition to the plain word of god .by sharing with us a scripture which support that God does not require of us repentance before he forgives us ? since a major message of the prophets was the warning to "repent "
does not the lord say "IF"
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin

but since baptism is for the remission (forgivness)of sin show me any scripture where the lord does not require repentance for the forgivness of sin .

 

[Alithis]

Mark 16:16 tells me that baptism is connected to the idea of being saved and that unbelief is connected to the idea of being damned. There's nothing in the verse that teaches that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God". You haven't explained where holy scripture teaches that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God". Is there any passages that teaches that?

obedience .. it is about obedience -Jesus said those who love me keep my commandments (they do what he says )

your attempting as usual to sidetrack the topic into ambiguity ignoring the plain written truth . Jesus said "except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he canot enter the kingdom of heaven"

again..- obedience without obedience there is only rebellion .

 

[Alithis]

I see Scripture as belonging to US (the whole corpus of believers - the 2.2 billion alive now joined equally with an even greater number now in heaven) ALL of us TOGETHER, that God leads US (not just me). So, IF there is something that seems open (and I'm not of the opinion THIS is such a case), I look to the historic consensus of the church - God's people whom God together leads.............

it is only the historic consensus of "SOME " who claim to be the church who established such tradition of men .
the word of god does not .
when we overlay the word of God with our traditions and attempt to annul the word of God based on our traditions we rebel againt the word of god rather then being conformed to it .

i see scripture as being the word of God and understanding of it comes ONLY by the Holy Spirit , not through the carnal reasoning of the many . just because a lot of people say homosexualaity and adultey is ok .. does not make it ok.. what God has stated remains the absolute truth and what God has stated is what we will be held to . not the traditions we make up along the way .

the is no infant baptism in the bible taught as a practice its is not there .
you wil say there is nothing in the bible that says you can't do it - i agree .-but that does not circumnavigate the Gospel message . So if we tell a person who was baptised as a baby ,that they are saved -we circumnavigate the Gospel message and we lie .

 

[MoreCoffee]

obedience .. it is about obedience -Jesus said those who love me keep my commandments (they do what he says )

your attempting as usual to sidetrack the topic into ambiguity ignoring the plain written truth . Jesus said "except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he canot enter the kingdom of heaven"

again..- obedience without obedience there is only rebellion .

Where does holy scripture say that baptism "is about obedience"? You've claimed to believe what holy scripture says then show us where it says what you said you believe.

 

[Lamb]

I believe I've posted on this site a great many verses about baptism and how it benefits us according to God's Word. It's fairly long and I can post it again since there are some verses of scripture that haven't been mentioned yet in this thread.

I wonder what century that infant baptism ceased since there is evidence of whole households in scripture being baptized and even the disciple of the Apostle John named Polycarp was baptized.

Here is a good read:
http://www.issuesetcarchive.org/issues_site/resource/journals/kastens.htm

 

[MoreCoffee]

I believe I've posted on this site a great many verses about baptism and how it benefits us according to God's Word. It's fairly long and I can post it again since there are some verses of scripture that haven't been mentioned yet in this thread.

I wonder what century that infant baptism ceased since there is evidence of whole households in scripture being baptized and even the disciple of the Apostle John named Polycarp was baptized.

Here is a good read:
http://www.issuesetcarchive.org/issues_site/resource/journals/kastens.htm

It appears that as people focus more and more on their role and their faith then baptism becomes about them. Once people decide that baptism is about them then they reason that infants are ineligible. That is why the meaning of baptism was stated to be "about obedience" and why it was said to be "the final seal of a commitment made to God". Neither of those things is taught in holy scripture.

 

[Alithis]

… Continued.

Being baptized at that time and in those cultures meant turning one's back on one's lifelong pagan or Jewish socio-religious environment, and immersing oneself in something totally alien and comparatively unstructured. That naturally resulted in the commitment associated with the apostolic Gospel.

In today's pseudo-Christian societies, there is still a commitment of sorts, but it is overwhelmingly a commitment to “Christian” organisations, large and small, masquerading as commitment to God and Jesus. You only have to talk to people to see its self-evidence and their lack of awareness..

With some relatively recent exceptions, does not the Roman Catholic Church refuse to recognise Christian baptism performed by other organisations? Is not the baptism it performs, an entry rite into the Roman Catholic Church itself?

The Scriptures speak of an irreversible commitment – a deliberate, conscious commitment sealed and ratified by the act of baptism. But it is a commitment to God, and not to any human organisation. Especially not to any that has dishonoured God greatly in the past. Nor to any that is dishonouring God in the present. There is definitely more than one example to be found in both categories.

and this raises the very point i have presented elsewhere - being baptised "into a denomination" is not the same as being baptised into the death and resurrection of the lord Jesus .
being baptised into an organisation does not require repentance .
one who is born again of water... cannot retain a tie to past sin ..it would be like a baby being born in the natural and not cutting the umbilical cord .

to be baptised into the death and resurrection of the lord Jesus is an act of repentance and more .

 

[Alithis]

Where does holy scripture say that baptism "is about obedience"? You've claimed to believe what holy scripture says then show us where it says what you said you believe.

if a command is given it is given so that it may be obeyed
love for god is proven by obedience


Jesus said .."if you love me you will obey me ."

John 14:23
John 14:15
John 15 :10
done -I have showed you .

Now - your turn
:where does the holy scripture say it is NOT about obedience?
where does the scripture say it ok ignore what the lord says and do whatever you think is right in your own eyes and makeup traditions as you go along even if they oppose the word of GOd ?


-without obedience there is no salvation .

 

[Alithis]

I believe I've posted on this site a great many verses about baptism and how it benefits us according to God's Word. It's fairly long and I can post it again since there are some verses of scripture that haven't been mentioned yet in this thread.

I wonder what century that infant baptism ceased since there is evidence of whole households in scripture being baptized and even the disciple of the Apostle John named Polycarp was baptized.

Here is a good read:
http://www.issuesetcarchive.org/issues_site/resource/journals/kastens.htm

there is evidence of whole households being baptised -i agree .
how ever whether that included babies being immersed is firstly unlikely and secondly pure Assumption -NO one can say they baptised babies and no one can say they did not .
we do not build a theology on an assumption. we build it on the word of god .

i wil repeat . infant baptism is not prohibited by scripture , nor is it taught in scripture .
but what the scripture DOES say in full is "repent and be baptised " a baby canot repent and act on its own faith -so while in its innocence we trust God .once the person reaches an age of understanding they must ,like all others obey the command to be saved - repent and be baptised .

again i repeat - to tell a person who was baptized as a baby that they are saved is to speak contrary to the word of God and therefore is telling them a lie . -i won't have that on my conscience.
the implications of implying a practice is "ok" simply because many do it by tradition doesn't just stop there , falsehood always breads more falsehood .ie- if we say it ok to baptise a baby without their will nor repentance .. then you HAVE TO SAY it is ok to baptise the dead without their wil or repentance and the lie is perpetuated and more people perish in hell because they thought they can live a sinful life and still be saved by those remaining, baptising them .the practice of the baptism of the dead (by sprinkling) is just as unscriptural as infant baptism as in neither case does it include repentance . and we're your not christian but mormon cult if we take that path .
So we see that when we allow a tradition, not based on the direct word of God, to be established as a theology it opens the way for more and more error .. how about we start baptising the unborn ? after all , by the reasoning presented for infant baptism, whats to stop us ? --- the word of god is what restrains us from folly . when we listen and Obey

the command is to repent and be baptised . baptism alone is NEVER instigated by God .

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay, you have nothing from holy scripture that teaches what you believe about baptism. Nothing that says baptism is "about obedience" and nothing that says that baptism is "the final seal of a commitment made to God". Got it. Next topic.

if a command is given it is given so that it may be obeyed
love for god is proven by obedience


Jesus said .."if you love me you will obey me ."

John 14:23
John 14:15
John 15 :10
done -I have showed you .

Now - your turn
:where does the holy scripture say it is NOT about obedience?
where does the scripture say it ok ignore what the lord says and do whatever you think is right in your own eyes and makeup traditions as you go along even if they oppose the word of GOd ?


-without obedience there is no salvation .

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #85 MoreCoffee stated:

Mark 16:16 tells me that baptism is connected to the idea of being saved and that unbelief is connected to the idea of being damned. There's nothing in the verse that teaches that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God".

Actually, verse 16 connects belief and baptism together with the idea of being saved.

If a person is baptized as an infant but never believes, that person is headed for a less than auspicious end.

Therefore infant baptism is meaningless, and for that reason would never have been practiced by the apostles.

Also, MoreCoffee stated:

You haven't explained where holy scripture teaches that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God". Is there any passages that teaches that?

He (apparently conveniently) ignored the scripture references in Post #78 and the questions asked in Post #79.

I have had occasion (on many occasions) to point out in various forums dishonest tactics being employed by people to support organisations and doctrines to which they have committed themselves in extreme loyalty.

I have further pointed out that the use of such tactics actually highlights the fact that the people employing them lack the required evidence to logically support their cherished positions. Emotion-based irrationality is thus clearly exposed. I doubt God has a kind regard for that.

In Post #95, MoreCoffee says to Alithis:

Okay, you have nothing from holy scripture that teaches what you believe about baptism. Nothing that says baptism is "about obedience" and nothing that says that baptism is "the final seal of a commitment made to God". Got it. Next topic.

Here we see a clean sweep of all the inconvenient evidence presented to him, under the carpet – pretending it does not exist.

That's one of the tactics I have highlighted elsewhere.

Next topic indeed. It appears that the rearguard action has become a route.


It is probably worthy of further note that Josiah registered a “like” for MoreCoffee's Post #85. Had I previously lacked the knowledge, I would have correctly concluded that the organisation to which Josiah belongs, itself practices infant baptism – a practice that Josiah therefore feels impelled to defend.


And by the way, historical references indicate that Polycarp was 100 years old or more when he died. So he was not baptised as an infant as claimed by some, after all.

 

[Lamb]

Here are the verses I referred to earlier and it's done in a Bible Study that a friend of mine did years ago and gave me permission to share, so I do. Often.

1. WHAT BLESSINGS DO WE RECEIVE FROM GOD IN BAPTISM?

1 Peter 3:20-21. … in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it a few people, eight in all, were saved through water — and this water symbolizes Baptism that now saves you also.

Colossians 2:11-12. In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in Baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Romans 6:3-10. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through Baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

* Note: These passages from Colossians and Romans are summarized well by Dr. Lowell Green: “Baptism is the retroactive participation in the work of Good Friday and Easter Sunday — even better, it is incorporation into the body of the risen and ascended Savior ...”

Galatians 3:27. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Eph. 5:26. Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.

Titus 3:5. He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Corinthians 12:13. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:11. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Acts 22:16. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

Acts 2:37-39. Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

Mark 16:16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

* Note: In these passages, the Word of God associates Baptism with dying and rising with Christ, being clothed with Christ, being cleansed and made holy by Christ, having sins washed away, receiving the Holy Spirit, being regenerated (reborn) and renewed, receiving the forgiveness of sins, and being saved.


2. WHO IS TO BE BAPTIZED?

Matthew 28:19-20. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

Mark 16:15-16. And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.


2. Acts 2:37-39. Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

* Note: The burden of proof lies on those who would choose to deny God’s gift of Baptism to an entire class of people.


3. ARE THERE ANY INDICATIONS IN THE BIBLE THAT INFANTS WERE BAPTIZED?

Colossians 2:11-12. In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in Baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

* Note: Circumcision was a rite associated almost exclusively with infants (eight days old). It would be odd to refer to Baptism as the “circumcision of Christ” if Baptism of infants was to be forbidden while circumcision was given almost exclusively to infants. (Note also that infants did receive Jewish proselyte baptism.)

Acts 2:37-39. Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

Acts 16:14-15. One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home.

1 Corinthians 1:16. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas.

Acts 16:33. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

* Note: Households included all members of the family (which usually included extended family) as well as servants and their families. For this reason, it would be unlikely that none of the households referred to above included a baby.

* Note: There is very strong historical evidence that Infant Baptism has been the common practice of the Christian Church since the first century of the Christian era, and was almost entirely unopposed until the 1500’s. For more information, see http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/journals/kastens.htm. Historical information from outside the Bible does not prove what is right, but humility would suggest that we should think twice before concluding that the whole Christian Church got it wrong for about one and a half millennia — especially when it is seen that a strong Biblical case can be made for infant Baptism.

 

[Lamb]

Part 2

4. ARE INFANTS IN NEED OF THE BLESSINGS THAT BAPTISM GIVES?

Psalm 51:5. Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Ecclesiastes 7:20. For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.

Romans 3:20. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

John 3:6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


3. Romans 8:7. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Ephesians 2:1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins.


5. ARE INFANTS CAPABLE OF RECEIVING GOD’S BLESSINGS?

Luke 1:15. For he [John the Baptist] will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.

Luke 1:41-44. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. And she cried out with a loud voice and said, 'Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.'"

* John the Baptist is an example of the Holy Spirit being active in an infant. Since Baptism is associated with receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), this indicates that infants can receive this benefit of Baptism. We are not to deny this gift to children, but are to bring them to Him for this blessing.

Luke 18:15-17. And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. But Jesus called for them, saying, 'Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.''

* Note: The Greek word translated “babies” in this passage (brephe) referred to children in the womb and newborns. These were babies, not older children.

* Note: Our Lord Jesus clearly states that infants can receive the kingdom of God. Since they were sinful from conception, and because that which is born of the flesh is flesh (which is hostile to God), this means that it must also be possible for infants to be born of the Spirit — otherwise, they could not receive the kingdom of God.

Matthew 18:1-6. At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?'' And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."

Matthew 21:15-16. But when the chief priests and the teachers of the law saw the wonderful things he did and the children shouting in the temple area, "Hosanna to the Son of David," they were indignant. "Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him. "Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read, 'From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise'?"

* Note: Since we already know from God’s Word that infants can receive the Holy Spirit and can receive the kingdom of God, it should not surprise us that Jesus here refers to small children believing in Him (which could also be translated as having faith in Him) and children and infants praising Him. It is the Holy Spirit who creates faith, and the kingdom of God is received by faith.

* Note: Since Jesus says that small children can believe in Him, we can properly speak of small children who are believers in Christ — “Christians.” If they are capable of being Christians, they should not be denied Baptism.

* Note: This (small children being believers) is reflected in early Christian tomb inscriptions. The faith of infants is also referred to in the writings of important teachers in the early church (such as Augustine). Following are quotes from a few pastors and theologians about the faith of these little ones who believe in Christ:



Dr. Martin Chemnitz: "Although we can neither understand nor explain in words what may be the nature of that action or operation of the Holy Spirit in infants who are baptized, nevertheless the Word of God leaves no doubt that such action and operation does occur. This which the Holy Spirit produces in infants we call faith and say that infants believe."

Dr. Johann Gerhard: "Even though we do not understand what all takes place with faith in the tiny, little children, yet we should hold the Word of God in such reverence that we do not deny what it so clearly witnesses to regarding the faith of little children."

Dr. David Scaer: "Surely, if infant brains can process human language and make sense out of their environment, they can process the divine language which proceeds from the mouth of God and calls to faith. It would be strange to assert that the words of the Holy Spirit lack the efficaciousness which human language has with infants."

Dr. William Arndt: “If the question is asked how an infant, unconscious of what is happening around it and unable to understand the meaning of Baptism, can believe, the answer is that not we but the Holy Spirit creates faith in the child receiving Holy Baptism and that He can perform that miracle and take up His dwelling in children as well as in people who are grown up.”

Dr. Robert Kolb: “The Word of God is powerful enough, when uttered, to change even a godless heart, which is no less responsive and helpless than any infant.”

Dr. Lowell Green: “God does not need human cooperation. In fact, faith is the setting aside of our own activity in order that God may work in us.”


* Note: Those who say that a lack of mature reason precludes infants from having faith are encouraged to consider what the Bible says about natural man’s reason and faith -- see, for example: 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 3:18-20, Romans 8:6-7, 1 Timothy 6:20-21. True wisdom does not precede faith but is given by God and received by the faithful as a gift. The reasoning of an unbelieving adult is not a prerequisite to faith, but rather fights against faith.

Additional resources:

A good discussion of infant Baptism and infant faith can also be found in the novel “The Hammer of God” by Bo Giertz (pages 214-227).

These topics are also addressed in the book “Scriptural Baptism,” which is written in the form of a dialogue between a Lutheran and a Baptist. The book can be read online at: http://www.geocities.com/resourcesforlutherans/infantBaptism.htm

Books well worth purchasing that have excellent discussions of this are “Baptism” by Dr. David P. Scaer (available from www.cph.org) and “Baptized into God’s Family” by Dr. A. Andrew Das (available from www.nph.net). For an outstanding classic treatment, see “A Comprehensive Exploration of Holy Baptism and Lord's Supper” by Johann Gerhard (available from www.cph.org).

6. ADDITIONAL COMMENTS REGARDING THE ADMINISTRATION OF BAPTISM

In Biblical accounts of Baptism, there was not a lengthy delay between conversion and Baptism (e.g. Acts 2, Acts 8:26-40, Acts 9:-17, Acts 22:1-16, Acts 16:33). They went hand in hand.

Biblical accounts of Baptism indicate that it was not necessary for it to be done publicly. The Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26-40), Paul (Acts 9:18, Acts 22:16), and the Philippian jailer and his household (Acts 16:33) were all baptized in private settings. The important thing about what Baptism is what God is doing — freely giving us His gifts as He makes us His children.

 

[TurtleHare]

If you notice those against infant baptism don't have such an extensive study now do they?

 

[Josiah]

Now - your turn
:where does the holy scripture say it is NOT about obedience?
where does the scripture say it ok ignore what the lord says and do whatever you think is right in your own eyes and makeup traditions as you go along even if they oppose the word of GOd ?


-without obedience there is no salvation .

The issue is WHOSE obedience? You look in the mirror - at YOURSELF - for salvation: YOUR obedience, YOUR works, YOUR holiness, YOUR perfection, YOUR heart, YOUR emotions, YOUR repentance, YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU..... It depends on YOU. YOUR works. This of course is the basis of Islam, Hinduism, etc. The other position (the foundation of Christianity) is that salvation comes from the Savior, which CHRISTIANITY proclaims as CHRIST (and not Altithis) so that we look to the Cross for salvation, to Jesus: HIS obedience, HIS works, HIS holiness, HIS perfection, HIS heart, HIS love, HIS mercy, HIS blood. You look in the mirror (as to Muslims, Hindus, etc.)... the rest of us here at CH posting to you look to Jesus - thus our very foundational disagreement.

Yes, those who are saved are called to great things: Absolute holiness..... absolute moral perfection..... love for all 7.2 billion exactly to the extent of Christ's love on the Cross..... etc. But these are not what saves us (Making Christ a joke, His blood worthless, His work accomplishing nothing, Christianity wrong at its very core). Again, you are confusing justification and sanctification - indeed worse, because you subject both to YOU, what YOU first do. Friend, I don't think you will EVER convince the Christians here at CH that Jesus is not the Savior, no matter how to try to confuse, entangle, water-down Law and Gospel, justification and sanctification.... I don't think you will EVER get us to look in the mirror rather than to the Cross..... I think your sad, absurd abuse of Scripture will never accomplish that (well, that's my prayer). But hey, this is an open, tolerant, permissive site (which I approve of), you can keep trying.



Now, the issue of this thread is not your point that salvation depends on you. The issue is the prohibition some make to practice of not prohibiting baptism for infants. Your whole premise to the issue is a single verse you pop out and isolate: Repent and be baptized. But you ignore that "baptized" is PASSIVE here (thus, nothing to do with obedience), and that the word is AND rather than the THEN your premise insists (you even admit your whole premise is baseless, unsupported by the text because you even admit the word is "and" and not "then").




- Josiah



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