Infant Baptism

[MoreCoffee]

You keep saying that but the bible says the opposite in 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:1-14, John 3:1-5 and numerous other passages. Of course I'll leave you to have the last word on it if you wish.

John 3 makes no mention of baptism. Jesus wasn't talking about that at all. None of the other verses teach what you espouse. More study for you, for where you encounter the odd single verse that may say something different, a person needs to look at the entire volume of scripture to determine what the real truth of the matter is. So, the odd verse that SEEMS to say something else---doesn't. You cannot build a doctrine on one verse.

I gave 21 verses not "the odd single verse" one passage is 14 verses long, another is five verses long, Acts 22:16 is part of saint Paul's story of conversion and the story is many verses long. 1 Peter 3:21 is part of an admonition to keep a good conscience even if it leads to Earthly suffering because one's baptism saves you just as definitively as the ark saved eight people from the waters of the flood. None of the verses is out of context all do in fact testify to God's saving work in baptism as the sacrament of incorporation into Christ. And since baptism is God's work (not man's) then it follows that baptism is rightly applied to as many people as the Lord our God calls and that includes infants (like John the Baptist who was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb).

 

[Full O Beans]

None of your verses teach what you want them to. It's sad what man's religion can do to twist and misinterpret the word of God. One truly needs to be filled with the Holy Spirit to be able to rightly divide the word.

 

[Alithis]

None of your verses teach what you want them to. It's sad what man's religion can do to twist and misinterpret the word of God. One truly needs to be filled with the Holy Spirit to be able to rightly divide the word.

i know right .
perhaps some think if they post a lot of verse references we won't bother to look them up (in some cases don't need to as we know them of course ) .. and see that they are not at all saying what they hope they do . but what they actualy do say . which is not in support of thier man made traditions .

 

[Josiah]

None of your verses teach what you want them to.

Laugh out loud....


For SEVENTY-SEVEN pages now, the anabaptist crowd, the anti-paedobaptism folks, have been creating Baptism Rules.
Rules, rules, rules, rules, rules, rules...... ever more rules, a plethora of baptism rules.
Restrictions, prohibitions, mandates, hoops...... Rules, rules, rules, rules.


GOTTA be X years old before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA weep X buckets of tears in repentance before one may be permitted to be baptized
GOTTA correctly recite the sinner's prayer and state out loud, "Jesus is my Lord and Savior" before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA get the recipients formal consent before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA have proof they are a sinner and not righteous before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA prove they can hear and are not deaf before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA prove that the recipient is aware of X before such a one may be permitted to be baptized.



Baptism rules, mandates, prohibitions, restrictions, hopes...... too many to post here...... ever-more of them......always still more Baptism Rules


And STRESSING that if these rules they keep creating are not STATED in SCRIPTURE, we must reject them, regard them as false, and regard the one making these baptism rules as "religious."


BUT in SEVENTY-SEVEN pages of their posts, we find not one..... not even one verse that states what they do, that makes ANY of these Baptism Rules they've invented and promoted and mandated, any of these restrictions, mandates, prohibitions, hoops, gottas. Not one. For even one of their Baptism Rules. Now, YOU have the gull to comment about how one's mandates are not echoed in the words of Scripture. You've GOT to be kidding! Laugh out loud.




- Josiah




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[Full O Beans]

It is a spirit of mockery that "Laughs Out Loud" in the face of spiritual truth.

Once again, NONE of the scripture you offer teaches what your indoctrination tells you. None. In fact, what you've been told defies the truth of God's perfect word.

 

[Josiah]

It is a spirit of mockery that "Laughs Out Loud" in the face of spiritual truth.

You've given your own long list of Baptism Rules.
Mandates, prohibitions, requirements, hoops, gottas.

And you've stressed that if these plethora of requirements, rules, mandates, gottas, these Baptism Rules of yours, unless they are STATED IN SCRIPTURE, we must reject your long list of Baptism Rules, we must regard those prohibitions as false, and we must regard you, the writers of this long list of Baptism Rules, as "religious." Perhaps we should do as you counsel.

For SEVENTY-SEVEN pages now, the anabaptist crowd, the anti-paedobaptism folks, have been creating Baptism Rules.
Rules, rules, rules, rules, rules, rules...... ever more rules, a plethora of baptism rules.
Restrictions, prohibitions, mandates, hoops...... Rules, rules, rules, rules.


GOTTA be X years old before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA weep X buckets of tears in repentance before one may be permitted to be baptized
GOTTA correctly recite the sinner's prayer and state out loud, "Jesus is my Lord and Savior" before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA get the recipients formal consent before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA have proof they are a sinner and not righteous before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA prove they can hear and are not deaf before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA prove that the recipient is aware of X before such a one may be permitted to be baptized.



Baptism rules, mandates, prohibitions, restrictions, hopes...... too many to post here...... ever-more of them......always still more Baptism Rules


And STRESSING that if these rules they keep creating are not STATED in SCRIPTURE, we must reject them, regard them as false, and regard the one making these baptism rules as "religious."


BUT in SEVENTY-SEVEN pages of their posts, we find not one..... not even one verse that states what they do, that makes ANY of these Baptism Rules they've invented and promoted and mandated, any of these restrictions, mandates, prohibitions, hoops, gottas. Not one. For even one of their Baptism Rules. Now, YOU have the gull to comment about how one's mandates are not echoed in the words of Scripture. You've GOT to be kidding!



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[Full O Beans]

The only prerequisite that God gives for those who would be baptized is that they believe in Jesus Christ.

You have been deceived by religion.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Laugh out loud....


For SEVENTY-SEVEN pages now, the anabaptist crowd, the anti-paedobaptism folks, have been creating Baptism Rules.
Rules, rules, rules, rules, rules, rules...... ever more rules, a plethora of baptism rules.
Restrictions, prohibitions, mandates, hoops...... Rules, rules, rules, rules.


GOTTA be X years old before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA weep X buckets of tears in repentance before one may be permitted to be baptized
GOTTA correctly recite the sinner's prayer and state out loud, "Jesus is my Lord and Savior" before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA get the recipients formal consent before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA have proof they are a sinner and not righteous before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA prove they can hear and are not deaf before one may be permitted to be baptized.
GOTTA prove that the recipient is aware of X before such a one may be permitted to be baptized.

Baptism rules, mandates, prohibitions, restrictions, hopes...... too many to post here...... ever-more of them......always still more Baptism Rules

And STRESSING that if these rules they keep creating are not STATED in SCRIPTURE, we must reject them, regard them as false, and regard the one making these baptism rules as "religious."

BUT in SEVENTY-SEVEN pages of their posts, we find not one..... not even one verse that states what they do, that makes ANY of these Baptism Rules they've invented and promoted and mandated, any of these restrictions, mandates, prohibitions, hoops, gottas. Not one. For even one of their Baptism Rules. Now, YOU have the gull to comment about how one's mandates are not echoed in the words of Scripture. You've GOT to be kidding! Laugh out loud.
- Josiah

I like the post but wish the exaggerated stuff was missing. Nonetheless the core of it is true enough. Exclusive credo-Baptists demand a credible profession of faith as a requirement for baptism and hence they exclude from baptism infants, imbeciles, comatose persons, senile persons, and all people who cannot make a credible profession of faith. Some require submersion thus excluding from baptism infirm persons who cannot be submerged as well as people who have phobias that prevent them from submitting to submersion and all other persons who for whatever reason cannot submit to submersion. The rules imposed on the rite by exclusive credo-Baptists are entirely unbiblical and entirely of human origin and are made apart from anything revealed in holy scripture. In short their religious teaching is a religious tradition of their denomination, meeting, or group.

 

[Josiah]

The only prerequisite that God gives for those who would be baptized is that they believe in Jesus Christ.

Well, that's just one of many, many, many Baptism Rules, prohibitions, mandates, gottas, hoops that have been stated in just this thread.

And of course, equally stressed by the anabaptist/anti-paedobaptism folks here, these followers of this new tradition of Mr. Thomas Muenzer, is "UNLESS a Baptism Rule is STATED IN SCRIPTURE, we MUST reject it, regard it as wrong, and regard the rule-makers as "religious."

And we note, in SEVENTY-SEVEN PAGES of their posts, they've not yet quoted any of their plethora of Baptism Rules stated in Scripture. For the one you are now focusing on, all we need is the verse that states, "One must believe BEFORE they are allowed to be baptized." In SEVENTY-SEVEN PAGES of your posts, we've not yet been given that verse stating that rule. ONLY that if any Baptism Rule is not STATED IN SCRIPTURE, we MUST reject it, regard it as wrong, and regard the rule-maker as "religious."

Now, we've been told - over and over and over - that this verse DOES exist! So, when will it be quoted? How much longer must we wait? It's been SEVENTY-SEVEN pages already, how many more do you need?

credo-Baptists

This thread is about paedobaptism.
Back to the wait for the verse, "Thou are forbidden to permit baptism of any under the age of X" Or even "Thou are forbidden to permit baptism unless the receiver FIRST proclaims their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior."





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Thank you!


A blessed Lenten season to you and yours....


- Josiah




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[MoreCoffee]

This thread is about paedobaptism.

Thank you!
A blessed Lenten season to you and yours....
- Josiah

Oh, I see. So why was post #764 about credo-Baptist beliefs?

 

[Josiah]

More Coffee:

As we all know, credobaptism is the position that baptism is restricted to believers. As we all know, paedobaptism (often called "Infant baptism") is about the PRACTICE of not forbidding baptism based on age. The issue here thus is AGE, not BELIEF. But I don't mean to be "picky" Coffee..... What we've seen here is typical: anti-paedobaptists, anabaptists denounce peodobaptism ("infant baptism is forbidden by verse X") when in reality, they are speaking to a different issue, "baptism AT ANY AGE is forbidden to any who does not FIRST believe by verse X!" IMO, credobaptism and paedobaptism are DIFFERENT issues and I DESIRED to discuss them separately (which is why I entitled this INFANT BAPTISM instead of BELIEVER BAPTISM). But, I was probably foolish to think it would work that way. Anabaptist blast INFANT baptism when in reality, at times, that's not their issue at all - they are MISdirecting their condemnation. The confusion happens (as you've correctly noted in this thread) their rejection of those Scriptures that state that "paedo" CAN (and often) DO believe (Paedo simply means a child); because they disagree with Scripture and hold only those over the age of X CAN believe and NEED to believe, thus they forbid baptism to those under that (never disclosed) age, nothing that Scripture just isn't right when it says "paedo" can and at times DO believe.

It's one thing to say "baptism of those under the age of X does nothing. It's a waste of time and water!" It's a completely, totally DIFFERENT thing to say "Baptism of those under the age of X is forbidden."


Again, didn't mean to be "picky" my friend. But I hope you see my point, the distinction.


Back to the wait for the verse, "Thou art forbidden to permit baptism of any under the age of X" Or even "Thou art forbidden to permit baptism unless the receiver FIRST proclaims their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior."




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[Full O Beans]

Religion shouts but doesn't listen.

My advice: Know the Lord. Know His word.

God's word only teaches that those who believe are to be baptized. It's very simple...but religion is notorious for complicating and distorting things.

 

[Alithis]

Religion shouts but doesn't listen.

My advice: Know the Lord. Know His word.

God's word only teaches that those who believe are to be baptized. It's very simple...but religion is notorious for complicating and distorting things.

and it shouts tradition and opinion the more distant from scripture it gets .. after all -in the absence of simple unambiguous scriptural directive from the Holy Spirit from whence does a tradition of practice originate ? from a denomination . sow when it is defended vehemently ..it is a denominational tradition that is being defended .not the scripture .

 

[Josiah]

God's word only teaches that those who believe are to be baptized. It's very simple...but

.... BUT you have yet to quote the verse where "SCRIPTURE STATES" that. In SEVENTY EIGHT PAGES of your posts, you can't seem to find any SCRIPTURE that STATES that.

Your point has been that when the anabaptists, the anti-paedobaptists, the followers of Mr. Thomas Muenzer give their long, long, ever-growing list of Baptism Rules (as in this thread), we are to ignore them, consider all those "rules" as wrong, and the rule-makers as "religious" UNLESSS they can quote where specifically SCRIPTURE STATES that Baptism Rule.

Since in SEVENTY EIGHT PAGES of your posts, you've not yet been able to produce where SCRIPTURE STATES even one of your plethora of rules, since you've NOT been able to quote SCRIPTURE STATING, "Thou mayest NOT permit any to be baptized who hath not previously confessed their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior," I suspect we have no choice but to take your advise and consider this long, long, long, ever-growing list of Baptism Rules, mandates, prohibitions, forbiddings, gottas, hoops to be false, wrong, condemnable - and you, a "rule-maker" to be "religious."

in the absence of simple unambiguous scriptural directive

EXACTLY!!!! All these Baptism Rules...... Gotta this, gotta that. Must this, must that. Can't do this, can't do that. This hoop to jump through, that hoop to jump though. AND YET not one - not even one - not a single verse where SCRIPTURE STATES that (unambiguously or otherwise). AND the emphasis from these anabaptists that when Scripture does NOT specially and unambiguously STATE the rule, what must be do? Well.... the emphasis of the very same anabaptists is that we MUST reject it, consider these "rules" to be wrong, and consider the makers of all these many rules to be "religious."









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[Full O Beans]

.... BUT you have yet to quote the verse where "SCRIPTURE STATES THAT." Only that when the anabaptists, the anti-paedobaptists, the followers of Mr. Thomas Muenzer give their long, long, ever-growing list of Baptism Rules (as in this thread), we are to ignore them, consider all those "rules" as wrong, and the rule-makers as "religious." Since in SEVENTY EIGHT PAGES of your posts, you've not yet been able to produce where SCRIPTURE STATES even one of your plethora of rules, since you've NOT been able to quote SCRIPTURE STATING, "Thou mayest NOT permit any to be baptized who hath not previously confessed their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior," I suspect we have no choice but to take your advise and consider this long, long, long, ever-growing list of Baptism Rules, mandates, prohibitions, forbiddings, gottas, hoops to be false, wrong, condemnable - and you, a "rule-maker" to be "religious."





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In all your bluster in red and blue and green, you have yet to offer anything from the precious word of God that tells you to baptize unbelievers, and babies are just one example. Come on---let's see it.

(My "but" was to reveal the constant adherence to religious dogma over scriptural truth...religion always distorts and complicates the simple. You have done just that.)

 

[Alithis]

i think ..he wants us to but out .... . <--- joke people

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's been quiet in here too long.

THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

252. What names are given to the first sacrament of initiation?

This sacrament is primarily called Baptism because of the central rite with which it is celebrated. To baptise means to “immerse” in water. The one who is baptised is immersed into the death of Christ and rises with him as a “new creature” (2 Corinthians 5:17). This sacrament is also called the “bath of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5); and it is called “enlightenment” because the baptised becomes “a son of light” (Ephesians 5:8).
​

253. How is Baptism prefigured in the Old Covenant?

In the Old Covenant Baptism was pre-figured in various ways: water, seen as source of life and of death; in the Ark of Noah, which saved by means of water; in the passing through the Red Sea, which liberated Israel from Egyptian slavery; in the crossing of the Jordan River, that brought Israel into the promised land which is the image of eternal life.​

254. Who brought to fulfilment those prefigurations?

All the Old Covenant prefigurations find their fulfilment in Jesus Christ. At the beginning of his public life Jesus had himself baptised by John the Baptist in the Jordan. On the cross, blood and water, signs of Baptism and the Eucharist, flowed from his pierced side. After his Resurrection he gave to his apostles this mission: “Go forth and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19).​

255. Starting when and to whom has the Church administered Baptism?

From the day of Pentecost, the Church has administered Baptism to anyone who believes in Jesus Christ.​

256. In what does the essential rite of Baptism consist?

The essential rite of this sacrament consists in immersing the candidate in water or pouring water over his or her head while invoking the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.​

257. Who can receive Baptism?

Every person not yet baptised is able to receive Baptism.​

258. Why does the Church baptise infants?

The Church baptises infants because they are born with original sin. They need to be freed from the power of the Evil One and brought into that realm of freedom which belongs to the children of God.​

259. What is required of one who is to be baptised?

Everyone who is to be baptised is required to make a profession of faith. This is done personally in the case of an adult or by the parents and by the Church in the case of infants. Also the godfather or the godmother and the whole ecclesial community share the responsibility for baptismal preparation (catechumenate) as well as for the development and safeguarding of the faith and grace given at baptism.​

260. Who can baptise?

The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and the priest. In the Latin Church the deacon also can baptise. In case of necessity any person can baptise provided he has the intention of doing what the Church does. This is done by pouring water on the head of the candidate while saying the Trinitarian formula for Baptism: “I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”.​

261. Is Baptism necessary for salvation?

Baptism is necessary for salvation for all those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.​

262. Is it possible to be saved without Baptism?

Since Christ died for the salvation of all, those can be saved without Baptism who die for the faith (Baptism of blood). Catechumens and all those who, even without knowing Christ and the Church, still (under the impulse of grace) sincerely seek God and strive to do his will can also be saved without Baptism (Baptism of desire). The Church in her liturgy entrusts children who die without Baptism to the mercy of God.​

263. What are the effects of Baptism?

Baptism takes away original sin, all personal sins and all punishment due to sin. It makes the baptised person a participant in the divine life of the Trinity through sanctifying grace, the grace of justification which incorporates one into Christ and into his Church. It gives one a share in the priesthood of Christ and provides the basis for communion with all Christians. It bestows the theological virtues and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. A baptised person belongs forever to Christ. He is marked with the indelible seal of Christ (character).​

264. What is the meaning of the Christian name received at Baptism?

The name is important because God knows each of us by name, that is, in our uniqueness as persons. In Baptism a Christian receives his or her own name in the Church. It should preferably be the name of a saint who might offer the baptised a model of sanctity and an assurance of his or her intercession before God.​

(source)

 

[psalms 91]

Yes, a catholic perspective

 

[Josiah]

you have yet to offer anything from the precious word of God that tells you to baptize unbelievers

Yes, in SEVENTY EIGHT PAGES of your posts, you have not found even one Scripture to confirm all your Baptism rules, all your "Thou shalt's" and "Thou canst nots" You just keep repeating all these rules..... rules, rules, rules, rules, rules; restictions, prohibitions, limitations...... but with NOTHING from Scripture that states any of them.

religion always distorts and complicates the simple.

You're probably right. Jesus said go and do it. Pretty simply. BUT you're not happy with that, you come up with an endless list of ever-changing rules that complicates the matter, restricting the command, correcting what Jesus said, replacing the simple thing Jesus said with all these many RULES of your own invention, your own imposition, your own insistence.



- Josiah