Infant Baptism

[MoreCoffee]

What's baptism mean to folk who teach and preach credo-baptism?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Will be interesting when we die to see how God does view all this and us as well. I doubt He would really like us fighting over this. I agree that baptism is an outward sign of an inward change and is meaningless otherwise but hey what do I know

I suspect that the mode of baptism (submerging versus wetting in some way that does not involve submersion) will not feature too high on the "you must do this to enter heaven" list.

 

[Alithis]

True, but nor does the OPINION of a few people in just the last 500 years - creating a prohibition that you've proven Scripture doesn't.




.

AGAIN.. where is the prohibition ? no one has prohibited it Josiah . simply pointed out there is no biblical basis for it .
the word of God states what is to be done to be saved . simple . Get back to the word of God .

please cease from making untrue statements implying people have said something they have NEVER said . it is dishonest .

 

[Alithis]

You've admitted that in the single verse you keep isolating, the word is "AND" and not "THEN." Thus, you are admitting your whole premise, your whole argument, your whole point that "AND" actually should be "THEN" is noted to be void. AND does not mandate (or even imply) order. You know that. I know that. All the world knows that. And you admit the word is "AND" - not the word "THEN". There goes your whole point that FIRST there must be repentance, THEN, after that, following that, there is THEN to be baptism. You keep shooting yourself in the foot, admitting you're point is entirely void and baseless - but you keep endlessly repeating it anyway. READ THE VERSE you keep pulling out and isolating..... it says AND. It doesn't say THEN. Your whole case, your whole argument, your whole premise that ORDER is mandated is..... wrong, silly, baseless.



- Josiah

then vs and ..-even though i have used the word AND .. this means we do BOTH .. not just one . so doing baptism without repentance is 50% obedience to the gospel .. which make it 50% disobedience.

lets see what the scrupture says again shall we

“God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this. 33 Now he is exalted to the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today. 34 For David himself never ascended into heaven, yet he said,

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet.”
“So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!”
Peter’s words pierced their hearts, and they said to him and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?”
Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is to you, to your children, and to those far away[—all who have been called by the Lord our God.” Then Peter continued preaching for a long time, strongly urging all his listeners, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation!”
Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day—about 3,000 in all.

well thats pretty basic isn't it .. lets obey the word of god shall we ? and let us preach it as it is delivered to us and so be faithful in the message .

-Jesus said repentance for the forgivness of sin is to be preached .

and in baptism we recive the remission of sin . to be baptised is an ongoing act of repentance ,turning to toe lord and obeying him, as opposed to disobeying him .

--------------------------------
Luke 13:3
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.


Acts 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


Colossians 2:12
Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Romans 6:3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

 

[Alithis]

I suspect that the mode of baptism (submerging versus wetting in some way that does not involve submersion) will not feature too high on the "you must do this to enter heaven" list.

i don't suspect . i know that God wil not contradict his own word as delivered by the Holy Ghost .



Colossians 2:12
Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Romans 6:3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were[Buried[/B] therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

the word baptize is to take a cloth and submerge it for the purpose of dying the entire piece . the scripture clearly and unambiguously displays BURIAL .. never sprinkling for this purpose .

 

[MoreCoffee]

What does baptism mean in your system of beliefs?

 

[Alithis]

my system of belief ? ? ..unlike some ..I believe in the word of God -end of system. we do not nullify gods word by traditions

 

[MoreCoffee]

my system of belief ? ? ..unlike some ..I believe in the word of God -end of system. we do not nullify gods word by traditions

But do you have an answer to the question that I asked?

What does baptism mean?

 

[psalms 91]

Vaptism is entering into Christs death and resurrecting in the new man. It is an outward sign of an inward change

 

[Pedrito]

I had the impression that baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God – a commitment that could not be revoked or backed out of – and for which many dire warnings are given in Scripture for anyone who might be tempted to try.

If that is indeed so, then any rite of any form performed on people prior to that commitment (including infants) is both meaningless and a distortion of the Gospel as once and for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3)

Of course, if God has not revealed the existence of such a commitment along with the associated dire warnings, then my impression is totally wrong.

 

[Josiah]

AGAIN.. where is the prohibition ?

Not in Scripture..... This thread is wholly and entirely about INFANT baptism, the practice of not forbidding that practice but rather practing that. You are protesting the practice. Your whole premise is that because you found a single verse that says "repent and be baptized" ergo it is forbidden to baptize prior to the receiver repenting, your whole protest of the practice based on "and" mandating order. Your argument against the practice this thread is about is baseless, silly, absurd.

You say what matters is what GOD says..... but you persistently REFUSE to note what God says in Scripture. You rather insist that all (including God) submit to what YOU refer to as YOUR "common sense" - ie, YOUR opinion.





.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I had the impression that baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God – a commitment that could not be revoked or backed out of – and for which many dire warnings are given in Scripture for anyone who might be tempted to try.

If that is indeed so, then any rite of any form performed on people prior to that commitment (including infants) is both meaningless and a distortion of the Gospel as once and for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3)

Of course, if God has not revealed the existence of such a commitment along with the associated dire warnings, then my impression is totally wrong.

Where does holy scripture say that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God"?

 

[psalms 91]

Where does it say to wet an infants head? That can cut both ways if you refuse to allow for common sense fill ins

 

[Alithis]

Where does it say to wet an infants head? That can cut both ways if you refuse to allow for common sense fill ins

sure can -either way its instituting that which God gives no directive to do .
and following HALF of his instructions is simply rebelling againt the other half .

ignoring them all together is simply altogether rebellion .
canceling them in order to maintain "tradition" is merely adding insult to rebellion .

 

[TurtleHare]

Not in Scripture..... This thread is wholly and entirely about INFANT baptism, the practice of not forbidding that practice but rather practing that. You are protesting the practice. Your whole premise is that because you found a single verse that says "repent and be baptized" ergo it is forbidden to baptize prior to the receiver repenting, your whole protest of the practice based on "and" mandating order. Your argument against the practice this thread is about is baseless, silly, absurd.

You say what matters is what GOD says..... but you persistently REFUSE to note what God says in Scripture. You rather insist that all (including God) submit to what YOU refer to as YOUR "common sense" - ie, YOUR opinion.





.

When an entire family is baptized you'd think that with the lack of birth control that we have nowadays that there would be babies present, but if they weren't meant to be included in either entire families or all nations that Jesus would specifically tell the disciples to exclude them right?

 

[Alithis]

yeh well, the word of gd doesn't have anything to do with it at all does it .
we don't need to repent ..only be baptised -according to some who cannot show a single scripture to back that up .

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #72 MoreCoffee asked:

Where does holy scripture say that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God"?

Well, the following is offered for consideration:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

That appears to rule infant baptism out as efficacious.

In fact, in the context of the times in which the statement was uttered, the Greek word translated “believeth” carries the sense of entrusting oneself to, as opposed to a mere mental assent.

Continued ...

 

[Pedrito]

… Continued.

And now some more verses that appear to indicate that an irreversible act = commitment takes place, and the dangers of trying to back out of it:

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Continued ...

 

[Pedrito]

… Continued.

Being baptized at that time and in those cultures meant turning one's back on one's lifelong pagan or Jewish socio-religious environment, and immersing oneself in something totally alien and comparatively unstructured. That naturally resulted in the commitment associated with the apostolic Gospel.

In today's pseudo-Christian societies, there is still a commitment of sorts, but it is overwhelmingly a commitment to “Christian” organisations, large and small, masquerading as commitment to God and Jesus. You only have to talk to people to see its self-evidence and their lack of awareness..

With some relatively recent exceptions, does not the Roman Catholic Church refuse to recognise Christian baptism performed by other organisations? Is not the baptism it performs, an entry rite into the Roman Catholic Church itself?

The Scriptures speak of an irreversible commitment – a deliberate, conscious commitment sealed and ratified by the act of baptism. But it is a commitment to God, and not to any human organisation. Especially not to any that has dishonoured God greatly in the past. Nor to any that is dishonouring God in the present. There is definitely more than one example to be found in both categories.

 

[Josiah]

Where does it say to wet an infants head?

... the same place where it says to dunk folks in a tank behind the pulpit, for those being baptized to wear a special robe.... The same place where it says that Native Americans or Germans or Koreans may be baptized.... the same place where it says to have youth groups.... the same place where it says to have websites.... I think it's a dangerous rubric to conclude things are forbidden unless they are specifically mandated: we'd not be able to be posting on the internet if that rubric were to be embraced. See my point?


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.