Infant Baptism

[Alithis]

Great post, Josiah! It reaffirms what scripture says because God's Word is attached to the waters of baptism and what does God's Word do? God's Word doesn't rely on us first! He breathed life into Adam without consent! He can breathe life into us too without consent. He can baptize us without consent.

pat him on the back if you wish -but wasn't it you who often points out the difference between the gospel and the law .. circumcision- was an act of the law it did not require FAITH in the person it was being done to, it did not require their consent nor their acknowledgement .

where as salvation is by faith for with the heart one believes and with the mouth one confesses Jesus as lord and as i have just pointed out from the scripture .. baptism which saves us is then a response from a clear conscience.

 

[MoreCoffee]

ouuhh goody ,here we have another sentence ..plucked out of a text and presented as if it somehow proves a point it was not even making ..

BUT ..let us expand the text a little to see it in its truthful context rather then its misrepresentation

"...Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. And that water is a picture of baptism,which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ......" ..

hmmm interesting isn't it . baptism saving us because it is a response to god from a clean conscious .. iv not seen a baby respond to god from a clean conscience .

how does someone respond to god from a clean conscience ? easy ..they have repented to the father from their sin and God has forgiven them ...so they now have a clean conscience and they respond .

I do so love the scriptures ..they never contradict truth ..they are truth .

In your post you highlighted the words "but as a response to God from a clean conscience" as if they somehow mitigated the other words in the verse; specifically the words that say "And that water is a picture of baptism,which now saves you". Can you explain how the cleaning of one's conscience makes baptism irrelevant to one's salvation when the passage you quoted says that baptism saves us?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The context from first Peter chapter three is this:

No one can hurt you if you are determined to do only what is right; and blessed are you if you have to suffer for being upright. Have no dread of them; have no fear. Simply proclaim the Lord Christ holy in your hearts, and always have your answer ready for people who ask you the reason for the hope that you have. But give it with courtesy and respect and with a clear conscience, so that those who slander your good behaviour in Christ may be ashamed of their accusations. And if it is the will of God that you should suffer, it is better to suffer for doing right than for doing wrong. Christ himself died once and for all for sins, the upright for the sake of the guilty, to lead us to God. In the body he was put to death, in the spirit he was raised to life, and, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah's time when the ark was being built. In it only a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water. It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now -- not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has entered heaven and is at God's right hand, with angels, ruling forces and powers subject to him.
(1 Peter 3:13-22)
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The passage is intended to encourage Christian who are opposed and sometimes persecuted for their testimony to Jesus Christ. Part of the encouragement is for them remember that Christ has died for sins once and for all and that just as the ark saved eight souls from the world in ancient times so too baptism corresponds to this because it saves the souls of those who are baptised. The water of baptism isn't a bath intended to wash the body it is about the good conscience that union with the Lord Jesus Christ gives through the merciful grace of God. Romans chapter six helps to explain the way in which baptism saves. It saves by uniting the faithful to the death of Christ and to his resurrection thus granting a new life in which goodness overcomes sins. Saint Paul expresses it this way:

Romans 6:1-14 What should we say then? Should we remain in sin so that grace may be given the more fully? (2) Out of the question! We have died to sin; how could we go on living in it? (3) You cannot have forgotten that all of us, when we were baptised into Christ Jesus, were baptised into his death. (4) So by our baptism into his death we were buried with him, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father's glorious power, we too should begin living a new life.

(5) If we have been joined to him by dying a death like his, so we shall be by a resurrection like his; (6) realising that our former self was crucified with him, so that the self which belonged to sin should be destroyed and we should be freed from the slavery of sin. (7) Someone who has died, of course, no longer has to answer for sin. (8) But we believe that, if we died with Christ, then we shall live with him too. (9) We know that Christ has been raised from the dead and will never die again. Death has no power over him any more. (10) For by dying, he is dead to sin once and for all, and now the life that he lives is life with God. (11) In the same way, you must see yourselves as being dead to sin but alive for God in Christ Jesus. (12) That is why you must not allow sin to reign over your mortal bodies and make you obey their desires; (13) or give any parts of your bodies over to sin to be used as instruments of evil. Instead, give yourselves to God, as people brought to life from the dead, and give every part of your bodies to God to be instruments of uprightness; (14) and then sin will no longer have any power over you -- you are living not under law, but under grace.
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So Christians are encouraged to remember their baptism as the beginning of a new life in union with Christ, a life that is marked by goodness rather than by sins. Infants and adults both partake of this goodness and the benefits of the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ in a way that is similar to the way that they partook of the condemnation that came upon all humanity by means of the sins of Adam and Eve. Saint Paul explains that in Romans chapter five.

 

[Alithis]

In your post you highlighted the words "but as a response to God from a clean conscience" as if they somehow mitigated the other words in the verse; specifically the words that way "And that water is a picture of baptism,which now saves you". Can you explain how the cleaning of one's conscience makes baptism irrelevant to one's salvation when the passage you quoted says that baptism saves us?

can you explain why you are asking about something i never said ?

i never said it makes baptism irrelevant ? the "scripture" (not me ) says that the baptism that saves us is a response of a clear conscience
and suggested that one get a clear conscience because they have repented and receive God's forgivness .. then, as a response, from within that cleared conscience, they then go and get baptised .


you said " of baptism,which now saves you " . -as if it is baptism alone -but it is not never was never will be .

i posted the verse from which that sentance comes -, being,

"Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. And that water is a picture of baptism,which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ......" ..

so we see that it is not baptism alone which saved but that baptism is a response to God.. just as the verse clearly states .

i know when you posted the sentance you did not mean to bring to light the very verse that proved the point iv been making all along .

sprinkle water on babies if you wish . but as they are not responding to god ,do not know about it are not aware of repentance have not activated faith (acted on thier own faith ) don't go lying to them about thier salvation .
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this is the part where you usually post a string of long ambiguous references then ask redirecting questions to make this post scroll out of view as quickly as you can ...ouh look, you already started doing it ..

 

[Alithis]

Yes, I quite agree and I hope you cna be amused yet as well

to amuse.. .. from latin = anti think . basically .. to not think .

 

[MoreCoffee]

can you explain why you are asking about something i never said ?

i never said it makes baptism irrelevant ? the "scripture says that the baptism that saves us is a response of a clear conscious.

No, holy scripture does not say "the baptism that saves us is a response of a clear conscious". What holy scripture says is "It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now -- not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" and that is very different from the interpretation that your post offers. it is baptism that saves not a clean conscience as appears to be the interpretation you are advocating. Romans chapter six explains it rather well. Take a look at post #243 and see for yourself.

and suggested that one get a clear conscience because they have repented and receive God's forgiveness .. then, as a response, from within that cleared conscience, they then go and get baptised .

The interpretation that you give is incorrect. It does not even make a serious attempt to read the passage as it is written in holy scripture. You've moved the words around to make them suit the doctrine that you want to teach. That is a sure path to error and heresy. It is far better to let holy scripture say what it says in the way that it says it rather than mangle it to make it say what you want it to say.

you said " of baptism,which now saves you " . -as if it is baptism alone -but it is not never was never will be .

I didn't say "of baptism,which now saves you" holy scripture said that and I quoted it. The scripture says "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" that to which baptism corresponds is the waters of the flood and the ark in which eight persons were preserved alive from the flood. That baptism saves is explicitly stated in the passage. But to avoid misunderstandings holy scripture includes many other passages that teach about baptism. Romans 6 is one passage. John 3 is another. There are more and the sum total of their teaching is that one is washed clean of sins by baptism which unites one to Christ in his death and resurrection and that in the resurrected life one is made clean by the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ and so on. There is nothing in the holy scriptures to forbid baptism to infants as your posts suggest but rather there is a great deal in holy scripture to encourage faithful parents to baptise their children.

i posted the verse from which that sentence comes -, being,

"Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. And that water is a picture of baptism,which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ......" ..

Even the translation that you quote says that baptism saves you using these words "And that water is a picture of baptism,which now saves you". The passage that you quote does not say what you said, namely "that the baptism that saves us is a response of a clear conscious". That is an opinion that you are offering about what the words in holy scripture mean and it is an erroneous opinion.

The rest of your post repeats the errors observed above so I'll leave it uncommented.

so we see that it is not baptism alone which saved but that baptism is a response to God.. just as the verse clearly states .

i know when you posted the sentence you did not mean to bring to light the very verse that proved the point iv been making all along .

sprinkle water on babies if you wish . but as they are not responding to god ,do not know about it are not aware of repentance have not activated faith (acted on thier own faith ) don't go lying to them about thier salvation .

 

[Alithis]

I agree. It's why I reject this new tradition of a tiny few: this new tradition of maybe 10% of Christians of withholding Baptism from those under the age of X.




.

tut tut dishonesty again.. the known tradition of baptising babies originates from rome some few HUNDRED years after the book of acts .so it was the practice of doing so that was new . not the other way round . there is simply NILL evidence of baptising babies in the scriptures . -you know it, you just thus far refused to admit it .


i also find it almost amusing that you keep throwing in the numbers game as if the more people that say it the more true it is .. can you back that up with scripture ?.is truth defined by how many people say a thing ?or by God who says it ? sounds like your using atheistic or humanistic type thinking -get enough people to say a thing is not wrong and it becomes the accepted nor that it is not wrong . but nope we wil stil be judged by Gods word . the "few " you keep referring to consists of a probable 800 milion statistical christians all of whom do not practice nor believe in infant baptism as a means of salvation ..far more the 10 % you can be sure taking into account it does not include them all .

and its all hoo haa an noise . Truth is - the scripture doesn't teach infant baptism .. just because many others do ,does not change that the scriptures don't . the gospel message is a packages message it does not consist of one singular response but an ongoing number of responses to that which is graciously offered us .

 

[Pedrito]

It is interesting to note how much repetitive store is placed (in this thread and in others) on being able to state that the households of the Philippian jailer and Lydia that were baptised, included everyone in their households, and that those households possibly (probably?) included infants.

That inclusiveness is then used as evidence to support the scripturality of infant baptism.

Unfortunately, this has unwittingly led to unrealised, repetitive self-shooting-in-the-foot.

The households of important people (like the Philippian jailer) and well-off business owners (as Lydia as a seller of purple would have been) invariably included live-in servants, sometimes accompanied by their families.

So, if the households of the Philippian jailer and Lydia were all baptised, the servants and their families were baptised as well, both adults and children, whether believers or not.

When a rich person in the USA or Canada or the UK or Germany for instance, becomes a believer in our day, is it Lutheran (for example) practice to baptise the live-in cook and her or his family, the live in gardener and his or her family, or the servant who looks after the children, as well?

I think not.

If not, then the Lutheran church (for example) is not following what it repeatedly claims to be apostolic practice.


Such long-term and repetitive inconsistency once again highlights the emotional basis (one could be tempted to use the term 'irrational') of the ritualist stance on this subject.

But I doubt that will change anything. Emotionalism is extremely powerful, no matter what denomination it finds a home in.


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And I may as well point out in case I haven't elsewhere, that Josiah's prominent harping on the “age X” premise which he knows to be invalid, simply betrays that he knows full well that his position lacks precise scriptural support. Otherwise he would not feel the need to be so fixated. His religious compatriots should advise him to cease. For the good of their cause.

 

[Alithis]

No, holy scripture does not say "the baptism that saves us is a response of a clear conscious". What holy scripture says is "It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now -- not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" and that is very different from the interpretation that your post offers. it is baptism that saves not a clean conscience as appears to be the interpretation you are advocating. Romans chapter six explains it rather well. Take a look at post #243 and see for yourself.


The interpretation that you give is incorrect. It does not even make a serious attempt to read the passage as it is written in holy scripture. You've moved the words around to make them suit the doctrine that you want to teach. That is a sure path to error and heresy. It is far better to let holy scripture say what it says in the way that it says it rather than mangle it to make it say what you want it to say.


I didn't say "of baptism,which now saves you" holy scripture said that and I quoted it. The scripture says "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" that to which baptism corresponds is the waters of the flood and the ark in which eight persons were preserved alive from the flood. That baptism saves is explicitly stated in the passage. But to avoid misunderstandings holy scripture includes many other passages that teach about baptism. Romans 6 is one passage. John 3 is another. There are more and the sum total of their teaching is that one is washed clean of sins by baptism which unites one to Christ in his death and resurrection and that in the resurrected life one is made clean by the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ and so on. There is nothing in the holy scriptures to forbid baptism to infants as your posts suggest but rather there is a great deal in holy scripture to encourage faithful parents to baptise their children.

Even the translation that you quote says that baptism saves you using these words "And that water is a picture of baptism,which now saves you". The passage that you quote does not say what you said, namely "that the baptism that saves us is a response of a clear conscious". That is an opinion that you are offering about what the words in holy scripture mean and it is an erroneous opinion.

The rest of your post repeats the errors observed above so I'll leave it uncommented.

I quoted from the nlt .i didnt swap words around one says response another says pledge... Both denote a response. A clear conscience is not possible while one remains guilty of unrepentance but after one is pardoned. And no one is pardoned before repentance . your long windedness changed nothing.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I quoted from the nlt .i didnt swap words around one says response another says pledge... Both denote a response. A clear conscience is not possible while one remains guilty of unrepentance but after one is pardoned. And no one is pardoned before repentance . your long windedness changed nothing.

The words that your post swapped around were the words you offered as an explanation saying this "scripture says that the baptism that saves us is a response of a clear conscious." Your post went on to claim that the words of holy scripture "suggested that one get a clear conscience because they have repented and receive God's forgiveness .. then, as a response, from within that cleared conscience, they then go and get baptised." but these things are not taught in holy scripture. They are an invention of the human mind and they are errors.

 

[Alithis]

And to clarify another point .sprinkling babies neither saves them ,nor is it baptism. Never is baptism into christ ,used in reference to his death burial
and resurrection, signified by sprinkling .and never is sprinkling spoken of in reference to baptism. While in stark contrast we have THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN... "....and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.…"

And there we have it .in unambiguous clarity. Buried with him in baptisn ...not sprinkled.

 

[Alithis]

The words that your post swapped around were the words you offered as an explanation saying this "scripture says that the baptism that saves us is a response of a clear conscious." Your post went on to claim that the words of holy scripture "suggested that one get a clear conscience because they have repented and receive God's forgiveness .. then, as a response, from within that cleared conscience, they then go and get baptised." but these things are not taught in holy scripture. They are an invention of the human mind and they are errors.

Nope i just quoted the scripture
And that water is a picture of baptism,which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience.

Displayong that the baptism is a response to god,,, like it says
So, no matter which way you twist and pull it. Baptising babies remains a man made tradition. Not taught in scripture.

So do it if you feel you must.just dont lie to the person in regard to thier salvation.

 

[MoreCoffee]

And to clarify another point. sprinkling babies neither saves them, nor is it baptism. Never is baptism into Christ's used in reference to his death burial and resurrection, signified by sprinkling. and never is sprinkling spoken of in reference to baptism. While in stark contrast we have THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN... "....and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.…"

And there we have it. in unambiguous clarity. Buried with him in baptism ...not sprinkled.

Were you buried in baptism? Maybe you were submerged in water but surely you were not buried under the Earth. Your post makes claims about the meaning of the word buried that are not correct and that are not the intended teaching of the passages you allude to and quote from. Baptism is in/with water. It may be by immersion, effusion, or aspersion. The Catholic Church teaches that it is preferred to immerse when that is both practical and prudent. When it is not practical or not prudent to immerse then pouring the water over the head of the one to be baptised is most commonly used. But what your posts consistently fail to mention is what baptism means. You worry more about how one applies water and to whom it is applied than you do about why one is baptised. By failing to grasp why baptism exists and what it accomplishes your posts fail to make any significant contribution to a discussion about the efficacy of baptising infant children of believing parent(s).

 

[Alithis]

Nope..my post does not make claims. My post quotes scripture .

Your simply rejecting scripture because it does not agree with your traditions. You superimpose your traditions over the word of God.

It says what it says . i dont need to twist it around to match a man made doctrine. ..
I dont care what rome teaches.romes lies.i will stand on what the word of God plainly states.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptised will be saved.” (Mark 16:15-16) Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that “we too might walk in newness of life.” (Romans 6:4; 4:25)

 

[visionary]

Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptised will be saved.” (Mark 16:15-16) Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that “we too might walk in newness of life.” (Romans 6:4; 4:25)

You will find that symbolism in the laver found in the outer court of the temple services.

 

[Lamb]

. iv not seen a baby respond to god from a clean conscience .

John the Baptist leapt in his mother's womb when Mary greeted Elizabeth. Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped for joy in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit."

There's much more to a baby's connection to God that you don't know about but God does.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You will find that symbolism in the laver found in the outer court of the temple services.

That's probably true. Baptism however is not a lave for ritual purity.

Off hand, do you know of any Jewish washings that were applied to infants?

 

[Lamb]

tut tut dishonesty again.. the known tradition of baptising babies originates from rome some few HUNDRED years after the book of acts .

Nope, look into the history of Polycarp before calling other people dishonest. He was baptized by the apostle John.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Nope, look into the history of Polycarp before calling other people dishonest. He was baptized by the apostle John.

I think that saint Paul may have baptised saint Timothy when he was an infant since he reminded saint Timothy of his grandmother's faith and his childhood upbringing in the faith.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it (15) and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (16) All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
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