Infant Baptism

[psalms 91]

I am glad that you still have some humour left

This thread is much too long and the matter has been debated far too much but it is fun to amuse a brother.

Yes, I quite agree and I hope you cna be amused yet as well

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, I quite agree and I hope you can be amused yet as well

I like most of the people with whom I have had the privilege to exchange messages here in CH. Even when I disagree strongly with their doctrine.

:santas:

I added some text to my earlier post. The addition says this:

Wash away thy sins, say the scriptures but one does not assume that a bath or a shower will achieve this end. Even a very deep and lengthy submersion will not avail. But a little sprinkle of holy water in baptism will.

Meanwhile the eleven disciples set out for Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had arranged to meet them. When they saw him they fell down before him, though some hesitated. Jesus came up and spoke to them. He said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And look, I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.'
(Matthew 28:16-20)​

 

[visionary]

Good thing that John the Baptist was baptizing all the babies.

 

[Josiah]

Good thing that John the Baptist was baptizing all the babies.

Likely, he didn't baptize any Gentiles, either. Only Jewish Hebrews (a biological descendant of Abraham). So, I'm sure in your church, no Gentiles, no Christians are baptized - only Jewish Hebrews. Just like John the Baptist.

And of course, John the Baptist was HEBREW (not Gentile). So in your church, the only ones who give baptize are Hebrews; you'd NEVER permit a Gentile to perform a Baptism!!! John wasn't a Gentile, after all!

And of course, John the Baptist did this in a RIVER (a specific one) so in your church, you'd NEVER use one of those baptism tanks but ONLY baptize in a river (the Jordan River).

And since your rubric seems to be we can only do what we see illustrated in the pages of the Bible, not only do you only perform Baptisms in the Jordan River, given by a Hebrew and only to Jewish Hebrews (never Christians, never Gentiles), but also you'd NEVER permit the use of electricity, powerpoint, the internet because there are no examples of that in the Bible and thus is disallowed in your church. You've NEVER use a baptism tank in your church! And you don't have youth pastors or youth groups or women's groups or VBS because there are no examples of that specifically mentioned in the NT. And you'd NEVER permit communion to be little cups of grape juice and a plate of cut up Weber's white bread since obviously there is no exmaple of that in the Bible!



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Good thing that John the Baptist was baptizing all the babies.

Do you believe that saint John the Baptist was baptising people into union with the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[TurtleHare]

Good thing that John the Baptist was baptizing all the babies.

Good thing he didn't baptize the Pharisees either. So what's your point? John's baptism was the forecoming of the true baptism that Jesus told his disciples to do in order to make disciples, baptizing and teaching.

 

[visionary]

I believe what you call baptism the Jews call mikvah.. and it has many purposes, but none of them are for infants.

 

[Josiah]

Good thing he didn't baptize the Pharisees either. So what's your point? John's baptism was the forecoming of the true baptism that Jesus told his disciples to do in order to make disciples, baptizing and teaching.

I think visionary's point is that we can only do what John the Baptist did and cannot do what he did not do: the premise behind "But John the Baptist did NOT baptize infants!"


Thus my reply:

Likely, he didn't baptize any Gentiles, either. Only Jewish Hebrews (a biological descendant of Abraham). So, I'm sure in your church, no Gentiles, no Christians are baptized - only Jewish Hebrews. Just like John the Baptist.

And of course, John the Baptist was HEBREW (not Gentile). So in your church, the only ones who give baptize are Hebrews; you'd NEVER permit a Gentile to perform a Baptism!!! John wasn't a Gentile, after all!

And of course, John the Baptist did this in a RIVER (a specific one) so in your church, you'd NEVER use one of those baptism tanks but ONLY baptize in a river (the Jordan River).

And since your rubric seems to be we can only do what we see illustrated in the pages of the Bible, not only do you only perform Baptisms in the Jordan River, given by a Hebrew and only to Jewish Hebrews (never Christians, never Gentiles), but also you'd NEVER permit the use of electricity, powerpoint, the internet because there are no examples of that in the Bible and thus is disallowed in your church. You've NEVER use a baptism tank in your church! And you don't have youth pastors or youth groups or women's groups or VBS because there are no examples of that specifically mentioned in the NT
. And you'd NEVER permit communion to be little cups of grape juice and a plate of cut up Weber's white bread since obviously there is no exmaple of that in the Bible!


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

This is a very common defense of the new tradition of withholding baptism from those under the age of X. Having no Scripture that teaches and states that new tradition of withholding it from those under the age of "X" - other arguments are raised. This "we can ONLY do what John the Baptist did..... or what Jesus did.... or what is exampled in the pages of the NT - and cannot do what they did not" might SEEM to support this new prohibition. But of course, it creates a LOT of problems for them (including they must then rebuke themselves for posting on the internet.... and they must rebuke their church for a LOT, nearly EVERYTHING - their own church does). So we end up with: Why should we accept an argument THEY reject and deny and disagree with?


I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that ONE of the several rites of Baptism practiced by the Jews in Jesus' time was a baptism of adoption. Judaism was growing rapidly among GENTILES and when they converted, whole families (inlcuding the children and infants of those families) were baptized into the covenant. But all that seems aside. I don't hold to the point. But what needs to be remembered is that Christian baptism didn't exist when Jesus was baptized, so whether Christian baptism is to include such or not is a whole other issue than the various rites that the JEWS practiced. And of course, as an infant, Jesus was circumcised - WITHOUT His consent..... WITHOUT His first weeping buckets of tears in repentance..... WITHOUT His first saying the sinner's prayer..... at 8 days of age. Scripture compares the rite of circumcision with Christian baptism (but never the various Jewish rites of baptism - none of which are mentioned in the OT). And of course, there's nothing in Scripture that states we are to baptize as Jesus was (and of course, virtually no one does).




.

 

[visionary]

Since I have no "church" dictating my faith, I secure it in the knowledge of the Truth, the Way, and the Life you find in scripture. There is a reason it is not in scripture, nor part of the faith brought forth from Mount Sinai and Yeshua. I don't have all the answers but I am not going to stand on ground that has no foundation in scriptures either.

 

[Josiah]

Since I have no "church" dictating my faith, I secure it in the knowledge of the Truth, the Way, and the Life you find in scripture. There is a reason it is not in scripture, nor part of the faith brought forth from Mount Sinai and Yeshua. I don't have all the answers but I am not going to stand on ground that has no foundation in scriptures either.

I agree. It's why I reject this new tradition of a tiny few: this new tradition of maybe 10% of Christians of withholding Baptism from those under the age of X.




.

 

[psalms 91]

If you want to throw water on a baby then go for it but dont expect that to equal salvation or that therre will be any understanding

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you want to throw water on a baby then go for it but don't expect that to equal salvation

Why not? Holy scripture says that baptism saves us.

or that there will be any understanding

 

[psalms 91]

Why not? Holy scripture says that baptism saves us.

If you know not what is being done how can you consent or understand?

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you know not what is being done how can you consent or understand?

Holy scripture says "even baptism doth also now save us"

 

[TurtleHare]

If you know not what is being done how can you consent or understand?

Baptism and teaching go hand and hand plus it's been pointed out a few times that God's Word is in baptism. Doesn't God's Word get you to understand because that's what scripture tells us.

Ephesians 5:26 cleansing her by the washing with water through the word

 

[Lamb]

I believe what you call baptism the Jews call mikvah.. and it has many purposes, but none of them are for infants.

Jesus did not tell the disciples to go out and have people immerse in the mikveh. He instituted baptism so that it would be a connection to the cross.

 

[Lamb]

If you want to throw water on a baby then go for it but dont expect that to equal salvation or that therre will be any understanding

What about God's Word?

 

[Josiah]

If you know not what is being done how can you consent or understand?

I respectfully disagree with the whole premise of your point: that we CANNOT be blessed by something unless we FIRST, previously, consent and understand it. Why then would God GIVE life? Did I consent to this gift? Did I understand it? Seems to me God just BLESSED me, GAVE to me. And why command circumcision? Do all 8 day old boys previously CONSENT to this physical act? Do they first understand it? Is it then - nothing? Or when I give my wife flowers, is that a sin unless she FIRST tells me to do it? Is it wrong to give something to a son or daughter unless they FIRST give their consent? Unless they previously UNDERSTAND all about the gift, the reasons, the implications? Am I forbidden to just unconditionally LOVE? BLESS? Give? The other day, I put a (rather generous) gift card on the desk of a co-worker while no one was looking. Was that a sin? Forbidden by God? Ergo meaningless?

But all the QUESTIONS in the world are not evidence to support this new, rare tradition of withholding baptism from those under the age of X; this new and rare tradition of saying "no" to God's command; this new and rare tradition of saying God can't permit us to do something UNLESS first the person gives their consent and fully understands what we are doing.


God ordered the given of circumcision to infant boys (8 days old). Did HE say, "But ONLY if they first consent to the procedure?" "But ONLY if they fully understand all that is meant by this?" "But ONLY if they first weep buckets of tears in repentance?" "But ONLY if they first recite the sinner's prayer?" Now, the Bible speaks of Christian Baptism and circumcision..... And when some "Evangelical" is at the airport shouting the Gospel to people (including children, including Jews and Muslims and Buddhist), does he FIRST get their full consent? FIRST mandate that they fully understand what is about to be given to them? FIRST mandate they weep buckets of tears? FIRST say the sinner's prayer?

There are examples of miracles that Jesus performed for people who did not ask for it, did not consent to it, and perhaps didn't even understand it (even after the fact). Was Jesus wrong to do that?

So, what about this premise that before something can be given or done (even to one 8 days old)..... before we can give something..... we MUST FIRST get their consent, FIRST they must be an adult, FIRST they must understand all about it? I question that premise. Respectfully.



Sincerely


- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

Great post, Josiah! It reaffirms what scripture says because God's Word is attached to the waters of baptism and what does God's Word do? God's Word doesn't rely on us first! He breathed life into Adam without consent! He can breathe life into us too without consent. He can baptize us without consent.

 

[Alithis]

If you know not what is being done how can you consent or understand?

Holy scripture says "even baptism doth also now save us"

ouuhh goody ,here we have another sentance ..plucked out of a text and presented as if it somehow proves a point it was not even making ..

BUT ..let us expand the text a little to see it in its truthful context rather then its misrepresentation

"...Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. And that water is a picture of baptism,which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ......" ..

hmmm interesting isn't it . baptism saving us because it is a response to god from a clean conscious .. iv not seen a baby respond to god from a clean conscience .

how does someone respond to god from a clean conscience ? easy ..they have repented to the father from thier sin and God has forgiven them ...so they now have a clean conscience and they respond .

I do so love the scriptures ..they never contradict truth ..they are truth .