Faith

[MoreCoffee]

Faith is ...

Hebrews 11 starts with a kind of working definition of faith.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the sign that the things not seen are true.​

Hebrews 11:1

After reading it and the stories of faith that follow it becomes clear that faith is about believing and trusting. Believing things that may seem incredible and trusting the one who reveals the incredible things.

Faith also has a very strong connection to fidelity; keeping faith, remaining true to one's convictions even under pressure and even when one must suffer because one has expressed faith in someone or something that others want to stop and will persecute to try to stop it.

One would think of a person as faithless if they broke a promise, a trust, a commitment, especially one that is important.

Faith also has content, the Christian faith has a great deal of content. One is faithless when the content of faith is emptied and something contrary is put in its place.

So, is faith the same as knowing? is faith the same as certainty?

How do you treat doubt and uncertainty and what do you do with errors and departures from the received faith of the church?

 

[Lamb]

Even doubters weren't considered to be non-believers in scripture...think about doubting Thomas “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe” (John 20:25). No one yelled at him that he was pagan. And that's because he still had some semblance of faith...it's just he wasn't certain of that faith.

 

[Josiah]

"Faith" (pistos) has two meanings:

1. Noun: A corpus of beliefs and views. As in "Keep the faith"
2. Verb: To trust, to rely, to depend upon, to apprehend and embrace. "Belief" can be used in this sense, too, but in a very different way than above.

The first DOES suggest something cognitive and roughly can mean the same as "beliefs"

The second is the primary meaning in Scripture and has little to do with what is understood. Here is the concept of embracing something "unseen" or "unproven." "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe" Jesus told Thomas.

In Justification, "faith" means to embrace the Cross of Christ for us (and really all the Atoning work of Jesus - His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection). To rely on that, depend on that, trust in that, apprehend that. This is the gift and work of God and (together with the work of Christ) essential to personal justification. Thus: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE - Soli Deo Gloria. Faith CONNECTS to the object of that faith (faith always having an object - WHAT/WHO is being trusted, embraced, apprehended). Thus the point is not so much the faith itself but the object of that faith.

But actually, faith is essential to all life, not just spiritual life. To not have faith is to be paranoid, a mental illness that debilitates. By faith we breathe, by faith we eat, by faith we drive, etc. Millions will board an airplane this year.... precious few know the physics involved in flight, few if any know everything about that plane, pilot and and crew, weather conditions during the flight, etc. AND YET they board the plane. Everything we do involves faith on some level. Justifying faith is faith in CHRIST for our personal justification.


Blessings on your New Year


- Josiah



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[Messy]

Faith is ...

Hebrews 11 starts with a kind of working definition of faith.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the sign that the things not seen are true.​

Hebrews 11:1

After reading it and the stories of faith that follow it becomes clear that faith is about believing and trusting. Believing things that may seem incredible and trusting the one who reveals the incredible things.

Faith also has a very strong connection to fidelity; keeping faith, remaining true to one's convictions even under pressure and even when one must suffer because one has expressed faith in someone or something that others want to stop and will persecute to try to stop it.

One would think of a person as faithless if they broke a promise, a trust, a commitment, especially one that is important.

Faith also has content, the Christian faith has a great deal of content. One is faithless when the content of faith is emptied and something contrary is put in its place.

So, is faith the same as knowing? is faith the same as certainty?

How do you treat doubt and uncertainty and what do you do with errors and departures from the received faith of the church?

How I treat doubt: with the Word. Or: Lord I believe. Help my unbelief. Or pray for the gift of faith, His faith, when someone is sick and you pray for them. Errors: first believe them for years and then one day you tell a modalist on a forum that he's wrong, saying the Father died on the cross. That's impossible. A spirit can't die. How can God die? The universe would collapse. And then: hey but I believe that too. I heard Word of Faith teaching in church that Jesus' spirit died, cause He was seperated from God. Aaah that's wrong. So then I change my belief.

 

[Joelightening]

Faith is ...

Hebrews 11 starts with a kind of working definition of faith.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the sign that the things not seen are true.​

Hebrews 11:1

After reading it and the stories of faith that follow it becomes clear that faith is about believing and trusting. Believing things that may seem incredible and trusting the one who reveals the incredible things.

Faith also has a very strong connection to fidelity; keeping faith, remaining true to one's convictions even under pressure and even when one must suffer because one has expressed faith in someone or something that others want to stop and will persecute to try to stop it.

One would think of a person as faithless if they broke a promise, a trust, a commitment, especially one that is important.

Faith also has content, the Christian faith has a great deal of content. One is faithless when the content of faith is emptied and something contrary is put in its place.

So, is faith the same as knowing? is faith the same as certainty?

How do you treat doubt and uncertainty and what do you do with errors and departures from the received faith of the church?

Faith always comes as a result of God speaking to an individual. That person heard God speak and believes what God said. As written," Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

 

[Albion]

Faith always comes as a result of God speaking to an individual. That person heard God speak and believes what God said. As written," Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

Properly understood, the meaning of that verse is that Faith comes by being introduced to the Gospel.

That could be because of reading it or by having it preached to you. What the verse is NOT saying, though, is that you are going to hear voices from the spirit world. And it's not saying that you can expect to hear from Christ himself.

That's why, in all Bible translations, the reference is to hearing the "word" of God (uncapitalized) rather than to "Word" (as you have written it) which would be a reference to the Son of God.

 

[Messy]

Properly understood, the meaning of that verse is that Faith comes by being introduced to the Gospel.

That could be because of reading it or by having it preached to you. What the verse is NOT saying, though, is that you are going to hear voices from the spirit world. And it's not saying that you can expect to hear from Christ himself.

That's why, in all Bible translations, the reference is to hearing the "word" of God (uncapitalized) rather than to "Word" (as you have written it) which would be a reference to the Son of God.

Faith comes by hearing of the Word of Christ in whatever way. Put a cd on your head with Bible texts, hear a preaching, read the Word out loud or the Holy Spirit gives you a text as a thought, because you have read or heard it or someone gives you a personal Word from God with a Bible text, cause God still speaks. Another text says that you can hear from God yourself, gifts of the Spirit. It never goes against His Word though. Then it's a demon who gives you the thought.

I Corinthians 12:8-10 NKJV​

for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

 

[Albion]

Faith comes by hearing of the Word of Christ in whatever way.

Of course, but that amounts to the same thing, whether a missionary preaches the Gospel, you are given a copy of the Bible, or it comes on a parchment roll or You Tube video.

But what this verse does not support is the notion that Faith isn't needed--which is what we've heard from several members who have insisted that if you've been included in God's elect you will just automatically be saved--or that each person will be personally contacted by a voice in the spirit world and told to believe in something that was completely unfamiliar to him.

 

[Messy]

Of course, but that amounts to the same thing, whether a missionary preaches the Gospel, you are given a copy of the Bible, or it comes on a parchment roll or You Tube video.

But what this verse does not support is the notion that Faith isn't needed--which is what we've heard from several members who have insisted that if you've been included in God's elect you will just automatically be saved--or that each person will be personally contacted by a voice in the spirit world and told to believe in something that was completely unfamiliar to him.

Faith is needed, but it does happen to muslims. They know about Isa from the Quran and see Jesus and get saved. But maybe they also hear the gospel from someone else, can't remember. My brother saw Jesus while he was Zen meditating, but he had to go to a church after that and hear the Gospel.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

No one yelled at him that he was pagan.

Why would they? Christianity did not exist at the time.

 

[Albion]

Faith is needed, but it does happen to muslims.

Please don't misunderstand what I'm going to point out. When Christians say "Faith," it doesn't mean just trusting in something or other to be true. With religion, it doesn't mean thinking that your choice of religion or a certain church organization was right or even the basic idea of there being a God.

It means, by definition, believing and trusting in Christ as one's Lord God and personal Savior.

Obviously, Islam does not define Jesus in that way, even though he's respected and revered. So Muslims who are in accord with the teachings of their own religion lack "Faith" when the word is used as Christians and the New Testament use the word.

They know about Isa from the Quran and see Jesus and get saved. But maybe they also hear the gospel from someone else, can't remember. My brother saw Jesus while he was Zen meditating, but he had to go to a church after that and hear the Gospel.

It's possible that a Muslim or a Buddhist could COME TO Christ as Lord and Savior while still a follower of one of those religions, but not that he could believe (have Faith) in Christ as the Bible identifies Jesus Christ...and also remain true to the belief system of some other religion.

 

[Lamb]

Why would they? Christianity did not exist at the time.

Pagans were anyone but the Jews and they believed in multiple gods instead of the one true God.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Pagans were anyone but the Jews and they believed in multiple gods instead of the one true God.

But Thomas did not express doubt about the existence of the God of Israel. He expressed doubt about the resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Messy]

But Thomas did not express doubt about the existence of the God of Israel. He expressed doubt about the resurrection of Jesus.

Even John the Baptist doubted that Jesus was the Messiah, because of Herodias.

Then the disciples of John reported to him concerning all these things. And John, calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to Jesus, saying, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?” When the men had come to Him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to You, saying, ‘Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?’ ” And that very hour He cured many of infirmities, afflictions, and evil spirits; and to many blind He gave sight. Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.”
Luke 7:18‭-‬23 NKJV

Luke 7:18-23 Then the disciples of John reported to him concerning all these things. And John, calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to Jesus, saying, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?” | New King James Version (NKJV) | Do

Then the disciples of John reported to him concerning all these things. And John, calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to Jesus, saying, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?”

bible.com

 

[Lamb]

But Thomas did not express doubt about the existence of the God of Israel. He expressed doubt about the resurrection of Jesus.

Jesus is God and Thomas doubted. If he truly believed that Jesus was God, he would have no problems believing in the resurrection.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Jesus is God and Thomas doubted. If he truly believed that Jesus was God, he would have no problems believing in the resurrection.

So, if I understand correctly what you're saying, the Israelites who did not believe in Jesus and continued to practice the religion of the TaNaKh, became pagans? The scribes and priests of the Temple became pagans?

 

[Albion]

So, if I understand correctly what you're saying, the Israelites who did not believe in Jesus and continued to practice the religion of the TaNaKh, became pagans? The scribes and priests of the Temple became pagans?

No. There is no indication that Thomas didn't believe in Jehovah God as did other Jews.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

No. There is no indication that Thomas didn't believe in Jehovah God as did other Jews.

I didn't say anything about Thomas.

Ugh. I feel like you guys are not following the conversation.

Allow me to recapitulate: Lamb said that the apostles didn't call Thomas a pagan when he expressed doubts about the resurrection of Jesus, after Jesus had appeared to them when Thomas was away. I asked Lamb why they would call Thomas a pagan, considering that Christianity didn't exist at the time. She replied that all the people who were not Jews and who worshipped multiple gods instead of the one true God. I replied that Thomas did not express doubt about the existence of the God of Israel, but rather about the resurrection of Jesus. She said that Jesus is God and that Thomas doubted this fact, which, I'm extrapolating, would automatically make Thomas a pagan. According to that line of thinking, everyone who didn't believe that Jesus is God would be a pagan. That would mean that all the Israelites who didn't adhere to the newly-formed Christian religion was a pagan. All the priests, scribes and everyone who continued to practice Judaism became pagans?

 

[Lamb]

I didn't say anything about Thomas.

Ugh. I feel like you guys are not following the conversation.

Allow me to recapitulate: Lamb said that the apostles didn't call Thomas a pagan when he expressed doubts about the resurrection of Jesus, after Jesus had appeared to them when Thomas was away. I asked Lamb why they would call Thomas a pagan, considering that Christianity didn't exist at the time. She replied that all the people who were not Jews and who worshipped multiple gods instead of the one true God. I replied that Thomas did not express doubt about the existence of the God of Israel, but rather about the resurrection of Jesus. She said that Jesus is God and that Thomas doubted this fact, which, I'm extrapolating, would automatically make Thomas a pagan. According to that line of thinking, everyone who didn't believe that Jesus is God would be a pagan. That would mean that all the Israelites who didn't adhere to the newly-formed Christian religion was a pagan. All the priests, scribes and everyone who continued to practice Judaism became pagans?

At what point did the Jews actually become non-believers once introduced to the knowledge that Jesus was the Christ and refused to believe? Instead of trying to pinpoint when they became a Christian group, let's think in terms of believers and non-believers. The Jews were the ones who looked forward to the coming of the Christ; the promised one who would redeem them. Once He came, not all believed in Him. It took a bit of doing for Thomas to actually believe but no one called him a pagan...it wasn't the amount of faith, but the fact that he had faith.

 

[Albion]

I didn't say anything about Thomas.

You did, however, reply to that other member's comments about Thomas and started off by saying that your response came with the assumption that you'd correctly understood what she wrote (about Thomas).