Evil Spiritual Gifts

visionary

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Sinless only because they are washed clean by the blood of Christ, right?
:thumbsup: Absolutely and fully under the influence of His Spirit in fullness so much so that they glow like Yeshua did in the transformation.
:arms:
 

popsthebuilder

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Ok, I see what you are saying but I dont believe that one is ever saved to the point he cant fall away
I think it is a state wholly under God that has yet to have been fully achieved due to some type of misunderstanding, or misdirection, or lack of faith. Based on scriptures, I think that not only can it happen, but it will happen by the will of God. I strongly believe that the real second coming will be through many, a coming together rightly and peaceably under God. Those many will be new and pure in Crist, lead by the teachings and example and way shown to us by Christ under God. It will never happen by the will of man.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

Brighten04

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:thumbsup: Absolutely and fully under the influence of His Spirit in fullness so much so that they glow like Yeshua did in the transformation.
:arms:
AMEN! :dance:
 

Brighten04

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I think it is a state wholly under God that has yet to have been fully achieved due to some type of misunderstanding, or misdirection, or lack of faith. Based on scriptures, I think that not only can it happen, but it will happen by the will of God. I strongly believe that the real second coming will be through many, a coming together rightly and peaceably under God. Those many will be new and pure in Crist, lead by the teachings and example and way shown to us by Christ under God. It will never happen by the will of man.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

I believe it this way too brother.
 

tango

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So is it like faith, we never can be sure who has it and only God knows the truth?

We need to test, which is why I keep banging on about the "test all things" line.

Jesus said we would know people by their fruits. On the fact of it, the occult healing I described could have been presented as a "gift of healing" but if you looked at my life at the time you wouldn't have seen much in the way of the fruit of the Spirit. If you'd asked me where the power came from I wouldn't have given any glory to God.

In Deut 13 we see a warning of false prophets who will come. There are two stages to the test - one is whether the prophecy comes to pass at all, and the second is whether the "prophet" then says "let us go after other gods". It's all well and good displaying signs and wonders and giving out "words of prophecy", but if the word doesn't come to pass we can conclude it wasn't from God, and even if it does come to pass we can then look to see whether the person points people towards God or not.

One thing I've seen quite a lot in various discussions (online and offline) is a challenge where people present some miracle or other and ask whether it's genuine or not. They obviously expect a "yes" or "no" answer. I file a lot of these things under "I don't know", and oftentimes add "and frankly I don't care". If I hear a rumor that Pastor Joe Blow has seen medically verified healings of cancer, the lame walking, the blind seeing, whatever else, I can't verify the medical records. I can't tell if the "lame walking" were genuinely healed, placed stooges, or a crowd conned into believing they were healed because they took a few faltering steps out of a wheelchair. And the chances it won't make any difference to my life at all whether it was a genuine healing, faked with a stooge, or faked based on crowd manipulation.

... which leads me back to another hobby-horse of mine, the difference between "Joe Blow Ministries International" and the day-to-day business of loving people the way Jesus told us to. If I see Pastor Joe Blow on one of his whistle-stop tours through my town he may be a great speaker, he may be truly inspiring, he may be highly anointed by God, but the chances are I'm not going to see enough of him to know. I won't get to see the fruit of his life, I won't get to see the way he talks to his family, I won't get to see how he handles the situation when someone calls on him for help when it's a really bad time, all I'll get to see is a stage presence that could be heavily stage-managed. If I see Pastor Joe Public serving at the church down the road I can see how he talks to his family because I run into him at the grocery store. I can see how he handles awkward situations because the chances are sooner or later I'll be the guy behind him at the checkout when the till stops working, when the assistant can't cope with the coupons he's got, when the person packing the bags puts the tins of soup on top of the soft fruit. I can see whether he lives an opulent lifestyle while constantly pleading for people to give more. I can see whether he truly has time for the needy and the unlovely or whether he palms them off on the Assistant Pastor For Things Beneath Me.

I've come across a few teachers who claim signs and wonders but, having read their teachings, I honestly don't recognise the god they describe. So on that basis I would conclude they are false prophets and false teachers, and regard anything theological they say as being suspect. They may sometimes say something good, but then a broken clock is right twice a day.
 

popsthebuilder

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Ones fruits are definately the way to check out their veracity. Giving without want to any in need without discrimination is a wonderful thing.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

Lamb

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Fruits can be deceiving to our eyes though so even though we can say, he looks okay, ONLY God knows the heart.
 

TurtleHare

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Ones fruits are definately the way to check out their veracity. Giving without want to any in need without discrimination is a wonderful thing.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

What do you think of the fruits of the major tv evangelists?
 

psalms 91

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Better question since we are talking antichrist, he will decieve the world so dont you think that at first his fruits will look pretty good
 

popsthebuilder

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What do you think of the fruits of the major tv evangelists?
Haven't studied them too much. It is my understanding that they are filthy rich. To me this is wrong as any excess should be put to use for he needy, widows, invalids, and those struggling in life not due to their own hand. I rarely watch tv and don't watch televangelists at all really so I can't make a comment on their actual teachings.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

popsthebuilder

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Better question since we are talking antichrist, he will decieve the world so dont you think that at first his fruits will look pretty good
I think when tested with scripture and to see what their work actually produces those of faith will know the difference quite easily.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

psalms 91

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I think when tested with scripture and to see what their work actually produces those of faith will know the difference quite easily.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
I agree that those who are in the spirit willknow but I dont think it will be easy if not in the spirit, remember that he decieves the world
 

tango

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Fruits can be deceiving to our eyes though so even though we can say, he looks okay, ONLY God knows the heart.

... which is why it's good to be able to see the fruit in someone's life over an extended period. Anybody can rehearse a stage act where they look joyful, humble, peaceful etc for a couple of hours before moving on to the next venue and doing it all over again.
 

tango

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What do you think of the fruits of the major tv evangelists?

I haven't seen their lives for long enough to be able to form an opinion. That's why I tend to avoid huge ministries, because there's no way of knowing whether you're seeing the genuine person or a stage-managed TV presence.
 

tango

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Better question since we are talking antichrist, he will decieve the world so dont you think that at first his fruits will look pretty good

His fruit probably will look good at first, and if he's performing signs and wonders that will lead a lot of people away. Anyone who is wowed by spiritual fireworks and who doesn't ask too many questions will be wowed by the antichrist, look at the signs and wonders, and follow figuring "this must be of God".

I'm increasingly convinced the antichrist will rise from within the church rather than from outside it.
 

popsthebuilder

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His fruit probably will look good at first, and if he's performing signs and wonders that will lead a lot of people away. Anyone who is wowed by spiritual fireworks and who doesn't ask too many questions will be wowed by the antichrist, look at the signs and wonders, and follow figuring "this must be of God".

I'm increasingly convinced the antichrist will rise from within the church rather than from outside it.
We know that antichrist will reject Christ in anyway.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

tango

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We know that antichrist will reject Christ in anyway.

Yes, and we also know he will try and draw people after him. So although he will reject Christ he will most likely look like he is pointing people towards Christ, at least for a time.
 

popsthebuilder

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Yes, and we also know he will try and draw people after him. So although he will reject Christ he will most likely look like he is pointing people towards Christ, at least for a time.
Sounds like the ancient Roman Catholic church, but who am I to judge? May we all be brought into the folds of God's Grace under his direction by his will. May we be lead to salvation through Christ under God.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

tango

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Sounds like the ancient Roman Catholic church, but who am I to judge? May we all be brought into the folds of God's Grace under his direction by his will. May we be lead to salvation through Christ under God.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Lots of people say that about the RCC, some say the religion of the beast will be Islam. Personally I suspect it will be something that will arise within the church while we're busy watching the RCC and Islam worrying over whether they are the beast.
 

popsthebuilder

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Lots of people say that about the RCC, some say the religion of the beast will be Islam. Personally I suspect it will be something that will arise within the church while we're busy watching the RCC and Islam worrying over whether they are the beast.
Islam is not the beast. Catholics can change. The powers that be will be the two headed beast. This could be whoever is behind the curtain who pulls the strings in the rcc and hardcore atheists. It could be the capitalistic powers that manipulate society along with the ancient rcc. It could be ancient pagans. These days pagans seem to think their religion came about in the sixties when in reality they were present and in bed with the ancient Roman Catholic church at the time of Christ's crucifixion. The Catholic church may not have been made at that time, but it was intentionally made to keep people from the truth and lead them astray. Ancient Roman Catholic church is also said to be partly responsible for Islam. It also was the only religion allowed practice in Nazi Germany, and hid criminals of war and kept a wrap on many atrocities. On thing is obvious; the beast will not be made up of any whom are faithful to God. There are a few possibilities. There is no point in worrying about it now though. We will be shown who the beast is when the time comes. This time is when the wholly peaceful and faithful under God will be called to avenge the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth along with all the others who have been wrongly murdered for their Faith.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 
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