Discussion of a Foundational "Evangelical" Teaching

[Arsenios]

Rev. Dr. James Kennedy, a Presbyterian minister in Florida some years ago, did door-to-door evangelism...
He asked just one question:
"If you were to die tonight and stand before the gates of heaven and you were asked,
"Why should I let you into my heaven?" what would you say?"

Some (like me) are clear that Jesus is the Savior.
- Josiah

"Yup, you're absolutely right - Jesus is the Savior and NOT me..."

Were I asked such a question,
By Rev. Dr. James Kennedy, PhD...
I would have to answer:
"God will judge this sinner..."

Of course, that is not how it works -
For Salvation is in THIS life NOW,
and NOT YET in the Life of the Age to Come
after we die...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Regardless of who likes hearing it (or not), that ^ is all true.

I wouldn't now - I grew up atheist...

If true, they taught wrongly then...

They may or may not be teaching right today...

Kids are killing kids in public schools today...

I would rather send my kid to a private school...

Or school him or her at home...

But carrying those wounds on one's theological shoulders forever is a mistake...

Blaming others as the basis for one's theological life does not fly...

Glorifying God in ALL things is blessed...

Even in a mistaken Catholic School run by big Nuns with rulers...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Regardless of who likes hearing it (or not), that ^ is all true.

You were in the same class with Josiah and heard the "verbatim quote" attributed to the teacher? Really?

 

[Josiah]

"Yup, you're absolutely right - Jesus is the Savior and NOT me..."

Were I asked such a question,
By Rev. Dr. James Kennedy, PhD...
I would have to answer:
"God will judge this sinner..."

Thus, a Cross-less, Christ-less, mercy-less faith? Wouldn't a pagan, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Scientologist say EXACTLY the same thing?

And yes, you seem to be pointing to one thing.... directing God to one and only one thing: You. Dr. James Kennedy noted that's one of the two very common replies: "Ah.... what?" and "I....."


IMO, Jesus is the Savior.

 

[Josiah]

You were in the same class with Josiah and heard the "verbatim quote" attributed to the teacher? Really?

[MENTION=389]Albion[/MENTION] will answer for himself, but I think he's convey what MANY, MANY have ... that what they were taught is essentially that if Jesus is mentioned AT ALL (and he's not always, see the post immediately above) Jesus is not the Savior at all but rather a possibility-maker or enabler or offerer. I think Albion (who I think is also a former Catholic) is simply confirming what I noted. I could direct you to nearly every Catholic known to me - including my siblings, uncles, aunts, cousins, MANY Catholics or former Catholics and they'd agree - that's what they were taught. And yes, I've heard/read a common "Evangelical" form of the same position. In fact, I seem to recall (I may be wrong) you've argued that ... you even gave a quote from something official that actually taught Jesus as an ENABLER (Albion I think commented on that) - I could be wrong about that. What I'm sure about is that every time ANYONE conveys that Jesus is the Savior, you seem to come unglued - going on and on and on (at times for over 100 pages of posts in the thread) debating, arguing, etc. You don't tend to say, "That's right" (ending the discussion). Of course, Luther said that Jesus is the Savior (correcting the sermons of Indulgence Sellers) and look what the RC denomination did there.



Now... that said.... I should repeat again, yet again, one more time.... that in my firm view, Catholics are as "heaven bound" as any Christian. I believe in the work of the Holy Spirit, I believe in the Sacraments, I believe in the power of His Word.... and I know (no non-Catholic can convince me otherwise) that the Gospel exists there - in the verbatim reading of Scripture, in the liturgy (filled with Scripture and Gospel), in the hymns (many of which are Protestant in origin). Now, they may be cognatively VERY confused, they may not be able to articulate the Gospel at all (don't even know where to start), they may embrace the Gospel in spite of their denomination... but I FIRMLY believe they know Jesus and Jesus knows them. Why do I have this conviction? Because I did. If you had spoken to me in my Catholic days, I would have said what Catholics tend to - I was baffeled, confused, unsure, insecure, it was an entangled mess, but I had a powerful relationship with Jesus. As I've written here many times before, I did NOT leave your denomination over this issue because I though the MESS I was taught was just a mess. But THE most blessed, life-changing part of leaving your denomination is that I learned the Gospel,and it has been life-changing to the extreme. And friend, I have spent MUCH time and energy speaking to Catholic friends and family (in person, on the 'net folks don't have the patience for this) and I have been able to help them untangle the MESS they'd been taught and to see the Gospel - a Gospel they "knew" before (I believe anyway) but it was a grand epiphany nonetheless. I think they are better Catholics with this than I was with the MESS, the confusion, the entangled mess, the unassurance.




- Josiah



.

 

[Albion]

You were in the same class with Josiah and heard the "verbatim quote" attributed to the teacher? Really?

We both attended Catholic schools where we heard those sentiments taught. Yes, indeed.

As I understand it, you did not.

Therefore, you are left to try to think up some way to discredit what those of us who know the facts first-hand are reporting.

 

[Albion]

I wouldn't now - I grew up atheist...

If true, they taught wrongly then...

I don't believe that anyone was asking you to cry "uncle" just because some facts of the matter were presented here.

But carrying those wounds on one's theological shoulders forever is a mistake.

Yes, it probably would be. Fortunately none of us here is doing that.

Blaming others as the basis for one's theological life does not fly...

It probably would be best if you addressed what has been posted here rather taking off on such flights of fancy. As you said, You wouldn't now [sic].

Even in a mistaken Catholic School run by big Nuns with rulers...

What makes you assume that it is a "mistaken" Catholic School?

 

[Arsenios]

I don't believe that anyone was asking you to cry "uncle"
just because some facts of the matter were presented here.

I was crying uncle??

Yes, it probably would be. Fortunately none of us here is doing that.

Making up a category of theology, "Narrow Justification," and bandying it about as a consistent and final determiner of all discussion, where any perceived variation, existent or not, is condemned as denial that Jesus is the Savior, and not man, and constantly going back to that with cut and paste proclamations, is called obsession...

What makes you assume that it is a "mistaken" Catholic School?

Both your accounts of the omission of Jesus as Savior being taught in them...

IF that is true, and you both seem to have had the same Catholic education, then whatever schools you each attended were teaching mistaken doctrines... An Orthodox School could do the same, and in particular times, many or most might teach wrongly... The same can be said for ANY School, even Protestant ones... Or Anglican, for that matter...

The problem the Latin Church has is that it sees itself as THE Authority in Christian Dogma, a thing NO Orthodox Church would EVER presume to BE... And when a Church does that and errs, it calls into question the entire structure of its presumed authority... The Orthodox are more Conciliar in their dogmatic pronouncements...

When an intolerant authoritarian screws up, the backlash can get nasty, which we see in Protestant anger with the Latin Church...

Likewise, we see it in Left wing politics against the same kind of "Authority" among Evangellicals and other Protestant Christian communities, wanting to deny them basic human political rights...

And it can be seen in Orthodox communities where the Faith has devolved into Religion, and judgementalism reigns supreme, and those who bail out carry great resentments...

Enough for now...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Looking for patterns, I am not surprised that the Left sees Protestants much as Protestants see Roman Catholics...

Betrayal's resentment runs deep...

Good and evil are at stake...

Always...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

I was crying uncle??

Well, I posted a simple statement saying that the situation Josiah described was true. You replied with a barrage of denials...and the topic isn't even about your own church! No one was attacking you or your church or its schools.

If true, they taught wrongly then...

They may or may not be teaching right today...

Kids are killing kids in public schools today...

I would rather send my kid to a private school...

Or school him or her at home...

But carrying those wounds on one's theological shoulders forever is a mistake...

Blaming others as the basis for one's theological life does not fly...

:empathy:

 

[Arsenios]

Well, I posted a simple statement saying that the situation Josiah described was true. You replied with a barrage of denials...and the topic isn't even about your own church! No one was attacking you or your church or its schools.
:empathy:

Rome has made its share of errors...

So has every other denomination spawned from Her...

So have Orthodox Churches...

So the point of commentary was not to deny Rome Her errors in teaching you and Josiah, but to simply encourage Josiah especially to move on from them, and set aside this eternal flame of a wronged child's resentment...

The Iliad addressed this issue already, 2600 years ago -
The Saga of the Anger of Achilles - A tragedy...
The way back an Odyssey - A wandering of diversions and obstacles...

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

t to simply encourage Josiah especially to move on from them

What is, is. DENYING such.... sticking one's head in the sand..... pretending a lie... doesn't change the reality.


Yes, if we WANT the division to continue - then we should deny the division and just sing "kumbyah" together... and there are the uber-relativist, the ones who agree with Pontius Pilate that truth doesn't exist, the ones who insist that the content and object of faith is irrelevant only the feeling of faith (so that all faiths are equal - Muslim, Buddhist, etc.) they are in favor of your suggestion.


You seem unaware that Protestants are passionate that Jesus is the Savior. And when that is endangered or denied, they rise up and proclaim the Gospel. Your feeling that "can't we all just forget about Jesus" is not one Protestants generally embrace. Friend, I'm NEVER going to stop proclaiming Jesus as the Savior.... and my prediction is that some non-Protestants will not stop debating me, mocking me, "correcting" me on this - often with hundreds of posts and maybe hundreds of pages in the thread - at every opportunity they have. But we can hope.



- Josiah




.

 

[Arsenios]

What is, is.
DENYING such....
sticking one's head in the sand.....
pretending a lie...
doesn't change the reality.
.

You have not yet forgiven them...
They have moved on from that error...
Childhood hurts are persistent even in old age...
Have you thanked God for your Catholic Schooling?

Glory to God in ALL things...
Not just in those you approve...

I thank God for you, Josiah...
Rome is trying to heal the Reformation...
Orthodoxy is trying to heal Rome...
Withdrawal of Communion is a Medicine...

Life goes on...

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

You have not yet forgiven them...

So you assume the RCC sinned? How so?
And you assume the RCC repented of this sin? How so?

Why is truth less important if not all agree on it? Is Jesus LESS the Savior because most humans don't think so?

They have moved on from that error...

When? When did it denounce Trent? When did it denounce its excommunications from all that? When did it "move on" from the Catholic to Protestant position? Why.... every time any Protestant here (or at any other website, etc.) even mentions "Jesus is the Savior" you know what happens.... there arises some Catholic(s) and it seems Eastern Orthodox who become highly emotional, debating and rebuking and arguing... often for literally hundreds of posts... is that your evidence that the RCC has moved on to Protestantism on this point?

Now, I'll agree.... there were uber-liberal Catholics who believed that during the 500th Anniversary of the Reformation, the Pope was going to make at least some kind of apology or at least SOMETHING official and public about how the RCC mishandled this or did wrong or maybe even as you put it, as moved on to the Protestant view. It didn't happen. The Pope attended a Lutheran worship service in Sweden but there was NOTHING from him that REMOTELY suggested any apology or moving from the RCC's position 500 years ago to the Lutheran one.

An Ostriches solves nothing by putting his head in the sand.... even if it makes him feel better. Dealing with things requires acknowledging them.



Back to the issue...


- Josiah




.

 

[Arsenios]

So you assume the RCC sinned?

Actually, yes and no -

I remember the efforts of pre-Vatican II nuns teaching in Catholic schools, and the tyranny involked, and the usage of guilt to motivate kids - Which is not theology class, mind you... Yet nuns are not necessarily good teachers, especially in classroom environments... They were punitive and repressive... Plenty of sin simpy in that...

And I suspect that you were educated in this old system, which is no longer all that much a part of Catholic Education - For even if nuns are still employed, they are not the hard-disciplined elder toughs that ran roughshod over the kids in the '50s, nor are they the "black and whites" with hoods and attitudes... They have moved on... RC monastics these days do not wear habits all that much, and the one some wear are pretty tame by the ascetical standards of yore...

The point is not that the Church has changed its point of view to agree with your personal opinions, but instead it is that whatever the Church has done does not matter insofar as your profound and personal NEED to grant them forgiveness is concerned, and this, I suspect, you have not done, because you are insisting that they change the Theology of the Church to your and Luther's point of view... This is a child's demand...

You see, you WANT this FROM them... They only want you to become their disciple and submit yourself to the authority of the Latin Church, and if you say no, they will acquiesce to your decision...

Not so is the matter for you, however, yes?

YOU want THEM to CHANGE to YOUR theological opinions...

And it simply does not work that way...

Now I don't agree with a whole lot of their theology either, but their decision to believe their Church's views is not a bone in my craw, as it so seem to be in yours... But you see, I was not a little kid under mean nuns who bullied me and taught me things that proved later to me to not be true... I am not a child resenting Church Authority that I think LIED to me about ultimate things... So it is easier for me to step back and not wear my hurt child feelings on my sleeve and just attack them as if I were some antifa hate-spitter...

You need to forgive them, and not only that, you need to thank God for giving them to you to lie to you, if that is what you think, or for whatever wrongs they inflicted on you in your student's perspective of those formative years... But as a bare minimum, you must forgive them all, remembering each face and each event of transgression...

It is anathema for your soul to harbor such great resentment, my Brother... It will eat you alive...

"Forgive us our trespasses,
as we are forgiving those
who are trespassing against us..."

And please forgive me for presuming to speak with you here this way...

Forgiveness should be our way of life in ALL transgressions...


Arsenios

 

[Pedrito]

==============================================================================================

I guess Readers could be forgiven for saying something like, “Here we go again.”

Josiah – Post #121:

Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Josiah – Post #123:

Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

John 1:9-13 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

==============================================================================================

Readers please note: repeated attempt to draw attention away from the preceding statement of Scripture – scripture that states unequivocally that certain people were given, and had to make, a choice.

Those who were born by the will of God, were those who had chosen to exercise the God-extended right to become children of God – those who had indeed counted the cost of doing so, as Jesus Himself had clearly taught.

==============================================================================================

Whether or not it is convenient, and no matter how the meaning of these verses (John 1:12-13) has been presented in various “Christian circles” in the past, Holy Scripture is unequivocal in this regard.

Otherwise, what did Jesus mean when He talked about counting the cost of discipleship? Is discipleship different from being “saved”? Can a “saved” person be unfit for the Kingdom of God?

==============================================================================================

 

[FredVB]

"Yup, you're absolutely right - Jesus is the Savior and NOT me..."

Were I asked such a question,
By Rev. Dr. James Kennedy, PhD...
I would have to answer:
"God will judge this sinner..."

Of course, that is not how it works -
For Salvation is in THIS life NOW,
and NOT YET in the Life of the Age to Come
after we die...

Fortunately our entering Heaven is not at all dependent on how we answer a question when we stand at a gate to enter. We are either already in Christ, or we would not even get that far if we are not in Christ. All others will stand in judgment for all things in their lives without Christ who bore all of the consequential judgment for those who are in Christ.