Discussion of a Foundational "Evangelical" Teaching

[Pedrito]

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In Post #77, with reference to the idea that the “saved” have been preselected by God and will be saved no matter what, and that they have no say in the matter, I asked a couple of questions (one of which had two parts).

Let’s look at them and see what responses were given. (Post #79)

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Question 1a: How do we handle Hebrews 2:3 when it says “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation...”?

Response: There is no conflict at all with God's elective process. The author of Hebrews, just like us, has no idea whom it is that God chooses. Therefore his retorical question is met with the same answer..."you cannot escape." God's justice will prevail.

The writer of Hebrews was addressing people whom he considered “saved” – Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus (Hebrews 3:1) – a point presented as being of the utmost importance in the answer to Question 2 (see my next post). So the statement The author of Hebrews, just like us, has no idea whom it is that God chooses. is totally meaningless in this context. That author of Hebrews is writing directly to the supposedly “chosen”. And therefore his question “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation…?” is in no way rhetorical. Therefore, “holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling” can fall away.

(Or else, he is referring to mankind in general, of whom he is one, indicating that each individual actually has a choice.)

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Question 1b: And in the light of “...which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;”, what was the salvation that Jesus Himself personally preached, and that was confirmed by others as being appropriate in a continuing fashion?

Response: (A response was sadly lacking. But is that actually a surprise? A number of Scriptural questions I have asked in the past have been (have needed to be?) ignored. (Would it be wise to challenge me to table them again? Including this one?)

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Continued...

 

[MennoSota]

Chapter 2 begins with one necessary inference that flows from Christ being superior to angels. We must, he says, pay closer attention to what we have heard lest we drift away from it (2:1). The Gospel must be the message that we have heard. We know this to be the case because Christ is the one through whom God speaks in these last days (1:2), and because the message we hear from Jesus is the Gospel that is spoken by Him through His*apostles.

We must pay closer attention to the Gospel because of the person of Christ. The superiority of Jesus is so prevalent in Hebrews 1 that the “therefore” in 2:1 must teach that we have to pay closer attention to the Gospel because of His supremacy. Secondly, we must pay closer attention to the Gospel because of the Gospel message itself. The message previously declared by the angels was reliable and disobedience to it brought punishment (v. 2). This angelic message was none other than the Mosaic law itself. Jewish teaching at the time said that the law at Sinai was mediated through angels to Moses. Scripture confirms this (Ps. 68:17). The author of Hebrews is telling us that since the lesser law from the lesser angels at Sinai brought punishment, how much more punishment will come if we neglect the greater message given not through angels, but directly from the incarnate God Himself. This greater message brings greater*responsibility.

Finally, note the strong warnings for disobeying the Gospel given in verses 1 and 3a. At first it might seem that the author is teaching that we can lose salvation. This cannot be the case, however, because we know the elect will be faithful unto the end and will not lose their salvation (John 10:28). Remember that Hebrews is written to Jewish Christians who were thinking of returning to the old covenant. These warnings are given as a means to keep the elect in their faith because the author does not know who is in danger of becoming*apostate.
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/so-great-salvation/

 

[MoreCoffee]

The first post starts with "An argument that is frequently heard by "Arminianists" and some modern "Evangelicals" is that while God OFFERS and CALLS us to salvation, we MUST decide and choose and embrace it." I suspect that the wording ought to be "An argument that is frequently heard from "Arminianists" and some modern "Evangelicals" is that while God OFFERS and CALLS us to salvation, we MUST decide and choose and embrace it."

The holy scriptures do in fact say God calls all men everywhere to repent and that God wants everyone to be saved and to know the whole truth so it is evident that God does in fact call all men everywhere and that God does in fact want all men to be saved.

 

[Arsenios]

The issue of this thread is singular: Does God require permission from us before He can bless us, give to us?

Is THAT the issue of this thread? Who in the world would ever argue that?? Especialy in the light of the Scripture which says: "I will have Mercy on whom I WILL have Mercy."

The other straw man with Lazarus is the fact that we are not dead like Lazarus was dead, and that his being called to life was from a death that is NOT the death that fallen mankind walks (comes forth) within... That event was not about the Salvation of Lazarus by giving Him Christ's Life, which came at Pentecost for him, but was instead a precusor, a Typos or Type, of the Resurrection of Christ about to follow... So it is a precursor of the Resurrection of Christ... It is not about the Salvation of Lazarus by Christ calling him forth... And Scripture does not record that Lazarus was "Saved" in this being brought back to the condition of fallen mankind when Christ called him forth...

And this is because Salvation IS one's entry INTO the Risen Body of our Lord...

And THAT Lazarus did NOT receive by being called forth...

BECAUSE Christ had not YET Resurrected from the Dead...

NOR had Pentecost YET changed the human nature of the Faithful...

This change of human nature by hypostatically uniting it to God the Holy Spirit...

This New Creation IS what Salvation in Christ IS...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

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In Post #77, with reference to the idea that the “saved” have been preselected by God and will be saved no matter what, and that they have no say in the matter, I asked a couple of questions (one of which had two parts).

Let’s look at them and see what responses were given. (Post #79)

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Question 1a: How do we handle Hebrews 2:3 when it says “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation...”?

Response: There is no conflict at all with God's elective process. The author of Hebrews, just like us, has no idea whom it is that God chooses. Therefore his retorical question is met with the same answer..."you cannot escape." God's justice will prevail.

The writer of Hebrews was addressing people whom he considered “saved” – Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus (Hebrews 3:1) – a point presented as being of the utmost importance in the answer to Question 2 (see my next post). So the statement The author of Hebrews, just like us, has no idea whom it is that God chooses. is totally meaningless in this context. That author of Hebrews is writing directly to the supposedly “chosen”. And therefore his question “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation…?” is in no way rhetorical. Therefore, “holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling” can fall away.

(Or else, he is referring to mankind in general, of whom he is one, indicating that each individual actually has a choice.)

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Question 1b: And in the light of “...which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;”, what was the salvation that Jesus Himself personally preached, and that was confirmed by others as being appropriate in a continuing fashion?

Response: (A response was sadly lacking. But is that actually a surprise? A number of Scriptural questions I have asked in the past have been (have needed to be?) ignored. (Would it be wise to challenge me to table them again? Including this one?)

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Continued...

Hebrews 2:1 So, we must pay the closest attention to the preaching we heard, lest we drift away. 2 If words, spoken through angels, became law, and all disobedience or neglect received its due reward, 3 how could we, now, escape, if we neglect such powerful salvation? For the Lord, himself, announced it first, and it was later confirmed by those who heard it. 4 God confirmed their testimony by signs, wonders, and miracles of every kind—especially by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that he distributed, ac cording to his will.

You are right, brother Pedrito, to point to verse 3 as putting a question to Christians about their response to the gospel. I sometimes wonder why some Christians object so strongly to the idea that people, Christians specifically, choose to follow or not to follow the Lord. It is evident in hundreds of passage in the holy scriptures that choosing to follow Christ is open as an option just as choosing not to follow Christ is an option open to people. John chapter six relates how a number of the disciples who had followed Jesus up to the discourse recorded in chapter six decided not to follow him after he said that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood. The passage records these words "John 6:60 After hearing this, many of Jesus’ followers said, “This language is very hard! Who can accept it?” 61 Jesus was aware that his disciples were murmuring about this, and so he said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then how will you react when you see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that gives life, not the flesh. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 But among you there are some who do not believe. From the beginning, Jesus knew who would betray him. 65 So he added, “As I have told you, no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.” 66 After this many disciples withdrew and no longer followed him. 67 Jesus asked the Twelve, “Will you also go away?” 68 Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We now believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”"

 

[Arsenios]

People who are spiritually dead are dead.
Just as dead as those who are physically dead.

No - They are not "just as dead"...
We can repent...
There is no repentence in the grave...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

No - They are not "just as dead"...
We can repent...
There is no repentence in the grave...

Arsenios

No person who is dead in their trespasses and sins can repent.
First, they won't seek God.
Second, they will consider the gospel to be foolishness.
Third, they will hide from the presence of God and run away.
God must actively step into the persons rebellious kingdom, break the chains of sin, and place the person in the Kingdom of God before they can repent.
We see this as God's modus operandi throughout all the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
Arsenios, repentance always comes after regeneration.

 

[Pedrito]

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As an interlude, before the planned continuation of my former Post, I felt the need to be consistent about something.

I have previously requested from the relevant Posters, the “dozens of verses” and “forest of verses” etc., that they claimed existed in support of the cherished doctrine that when people die, they actually survive in some conscious, disembodied form. The people making those claims fell silent with respect to that matter (and have remained silent), once they were asked to (I express it colloquially here) put up or shut up.

For the sake of consistency, and in order to not be accused of favouritism, I feel duty bound to request that MoreCoffee list for us the “hundreds of passage in the holy scriptures” in which it is evident that “choosing to follow Christ is open as an option just as choosing not to follow Christ is an option open to people”. That claim was made in his Post #85.

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Please understand that this is not a challenge to the thoughts expressed by MoreCoffee, as such.

And seeing that only two dozen verses (minimum) were requested of the other posters, perhaps we should let MoreCoffee off the hook a little by requesting only the same number of passages from him.

I think that’s fair.

Let’s see who puts up first.

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[MennoSota]

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As an interlude, before the planned continuation of my former Post, I felt the need to be consistent about something.

I have previously requested from the relevant Posters, the “dozens of verses” and “forest of verses” etc., that they claimed existed in support of the cherished doctrine that when people die, they actually survive in some conscious, disembodied form. The people making those claims fell silent with respect to that matter (and have remained silent), once they were asked to (I express it colloquially here) put up or shut up.

For the sake of consistency, and in order to not be accused of favouritism, I feel duty bound to request that MoreCoffee list for us the “hundreds of passage in the holy scriptures” in which it is evident that “choosing to follow Christ is open as an option just as choosing not to follow Christ is an option open to people”. That claim was made in his Post #85.

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Please understand that this is not a challenge to the thoughts expressed by MoreCoffee, as such.

And seeing that only two dozen verses (minimum) were requested of the other posters, perhaps we should let MoreCoffee off the hook a little by requesting only the same number of passages from him.

I think that’s fair.

Let’s see who puts up first.

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Here's my summary of Mr Equals Sign :
MC provides the "equal" number of verses for humans choosing both God and rejection of God that other posters have shared regarding God choosing humans and keeping humans unto himself.
Is that an accurate summary?

 

[Arsenios]

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As an interlude, before the planned continuation of my former Post, I felt the need to be consistent about something.

I have previously requested from the relevant Posters, the “dozens of verses” and “forest of verses” etc., that they claimed existed in support of the cherished doctrine that when people die, they actually survive in some conscious, disembodied form. The people making those claims fell silent with respect to that matter (and have remained silent), once they were asked to (I express it colloquially here) put up or shut up.

For the sake of consistency, and in order to not be accused of favouritism, I feel duty bound to request that MoreCoffee list for us the “hundreds of passage in the holy scriptures” in which it is evident that “choosing to follow Christ is open as an option just as choosing not to follow Christ is an option open to people”. That claim was made in his Post #85.

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Please understand that this is not a challenge to the thoughts expressed by MoreCoffee, as such.

And seeing that only two dozen verses (minimum) were requested of the other posters, perhaps we should let MoreCoffee off the hook a little by requesting only the same number of passages from him.

I think that’s fair.

Let’s see who puts up first.

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Pedrito - I know I am not MC, but it occurred to me to do a simple Bible word search to see what might show up related to your request for 24 passages, which seemed to me tedious when I first read it... So I will give you 3, and you can figure out what term I searched... I found one thousand five hundred ninety five hits... And drooling my way through all of them would be REALLY tedious!!

Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
And unto thee shall be his desire,
and thou shalt rule over him.

Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed,
and keep my covenant,
then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people:
for all the earth is mine:

Psalm 132:12
If thy children will keep my covenant
and my testimony that I shall teach them,
their children shall also sit upon thy throne
for evermore.

The search term should be very apparent...

You will find hundreds of the verses of which you requested but two dozen...

Arsenios

 

[psalms 91]

Lets start simple. God wills that all men be saved, seems to me that if there is only the elect then Gods will would not be that. Why is there elect mentioned in the bible? Could it be because God has foreknowledge of the choices we will make and therefore knows who will come to salvation and who wont? Just a simple matter to start with will leave the heavy theological discussions to the experts

 

[Arsenios]

Lets start simple. God wills that all men be saved, seems to me that if there is only the elect then Gods will would not be that. Why is there elect mentioned in the bible? Could it be because God has foreknowledge of the choices we will make and therefore knows who will come to salvation and who wont? Just a simple matter to start with will leave the heavy theological discussions to the experts

This is solidly Biblical via Paul's Epistle to the Romans, because he begins "election" with God's Foreknowledge of persons... So God knows before we do what we will do, and He knows this in the face of the fact that in this fallen condition of mankind we have self-authority that is God-authored but not God-enacted... And the Bible does not hesitate to show us God's perspective, because He is a-temporal... He sees beginnings from the end, and outcomes from the beginnings... He knows the future in minute detail, and yes, even the actions we will take that He does not control and direct... Knowing what a person will do, he makes provision, and if we think, nay if we know for a fact exactly what we will do when something happens, and we see God's provision for our doing that, and then we change our minds, proving ourselves wrong, and then see the Providence of God "shift" to our newly decided actions, we then say that "God repented" of His previous "decision", when indeed, as you say, He knew it all along... Calling it "repentance" is a condescension for our sake, because that is how we who are living here in this fallen shadow of death NEED to understand it...

In this the Calvinists do not err, yet for the sake of the Fall of Adam, God delegated self-authority to man born under the rulership of death, self-authority to turn to God, and to turn to evil, and with this freedom to self-decide, our decisions decide our eternal life that we will all have in the general resurrection from the dead at the dread Last Judgement...

God has total foreknowledge...
Man has God-given self-authority...

Libertarian Free Will is not relevant to this understanding...

Arsenios

 

[Pedrito]

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In Post #90, Arsenios stated:

Pedrito - I know I am not MC, but it occurred to me to do a simple Bible word search to see what might show up related to your request for 24 passages, which seemed to me tedious when I first read it... So I will give you 3, and you can figure out what term I searched... I found one thousand five hundred ninety five hits... And drooling my way through all of them would be REALLY tedious!!

He then gave Genesis 4:7, Exodus 19:5, and Psalm 132:12 as examples.

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Without any hint of rancour, I would like to point out that:
- Arsenios’ search term identified one thousand five hundred ninety five hits;
- And the likelihood of there being 1,595 verses in the NT regarding personal choice to follow Christ, is slim;
- And that therefore that search term used seems somewhat inadequate for the task.

Besides, the three scripture extracts he presented, significantly enlightening though they actually were, did not relate to the specific focus of choosing to follow Christ.

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I believe we should welcome third parties if they wish to help provide information on behalf of others. (Provided that the individuals being aided don’t object). I would counsel however, that Scripture references so tendered should be directly to the point.

I offer that counsel, because it is common in Christian circles for peripheral and out of context scripture references to be offered in support of cherished beliefs. And my tolerance for that practice has been diminishing over time. I would hate it if my tolerance limit were to be exceeded and I became uncharacteristically scathing (“you ain’t seen nothin’ yet”) in response – but such responses, if triggered, would always be based on logic, not on the emotional flaming of individuals or organisations.)

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[Arsenios]

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In Post #90, Arsenios stated:


He then gave Genesis 4:7, Exodus 19:5, and Psalm 132:12 as examples.

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Without any hint of rancour, I would like to point out that:
- Arsenios’ search term identified one thousand five hundred ninety five hits;
- And the likelihood of there being 1,595 verses in the NT regarding personal choice to follow Christ, is slim;
- And that therefore that search term used seems somewhat inadequate for the task.

Besides, the three scripture extracts he presented, significantly enlightening though they actually were, did not relate to the specific focus of choosing to follow Christ.

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I believe we should welcome third parties if they wish to help provide information on behalf of others. (Provided that the individuals being aided don’t object). I would counsel however, that Scripture references so tendered should be directly to the point.

I offer that counsel, because it is common in Christian circles for peripheral and out of context scripture references to be offered in support of cherished beliefs. And my tolerance for that practice has been diminishing over time. I would hate it if my tolerance limit were to be exceeded and I became uncharacteristically scathing (“you ain’t seen nothin’ yet”) in response – but such responses, if triggered, would always be based on logic, not on the emotional flaming of individuals or organisations.)

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The search term was one of the biggest words in the Greek Language...
Not all the vss addressed your narrow issue...
But those three did...

The search term is "ean" or "ei"...

It simply means IF EVER or IF...

Related to keeping the Covenant, these three signify a personal choice on the part of each person to follow the pre-incarnate Christ... Had I made it to the NT, we could have found more I should think... I will look there if you would like me to...

Do I need to go find my asbestos suit??

Arsenios

 

[Pedrito]

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In Post #94, Arsenios asked:

Do I need to go find my asbestos suit??

Indeed not. My general comments were not addressed at or to Arsenios. As pointed out, his comments were significantly enlightening on the subject. They established a general, Scripture-wide principle.

However, some people will be tempted to invoke the “Old Testament versus New Testament” ploy, to try to discredit that established, Scripture-wide principle. (They may back off if this is posted first, but that is why importance was placed on the narrow focus of choosing to follow Christ.)

My general comments in Post #93 pertained to the widespread misuse of Scripture in support of Post-Nicene and therefore Post-Apostolic doctrines – misuse by the imposition of retrofitted meanings, misuse by the quoting of verses out of context, misuse by the ignoring of inconvenient passages, and misuse by the making of unsubstantiated (and unsubstantiatable) claims about the existence of supporting Scripture (especially mass existence).

That gets my proverbial goat. (I don’t own a real one.)

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Not all the vss addressed your narrow issue...
But those three did...

Their value was acknowledged in Post #93.

Related to keeping the Covenant, these three signify a personal choice on the part of each person to follow the pre-incarnate Christ... Had I made it to the NT, we could have found more I should think... I will look there if you would like me to...

It’s really up to Arsenios plus anyone else who might like to chip in on MoreCoffee’s behalf (with MoreCoffees’ acquiescence, of course; MoreCoffee made the “hundreds” claim originally). “The more the merrier” could be appropriate in this case.

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[Arsenios]

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In Post #94, Arsenios asked:


Indeed not. My general comments were not addressed at or to Arsenios. As pointed out, his comments were significantly enlightening on the subject. They established a general, Scripture-wide principle.

However, some people will be tempted to invoke the “Old Testament versus New Testament” ploy, to try to discredit that established, Scripture-wide principle. (They may back off if this is posted first, but that is why importance was placed on the narrow focus of choosing to follow Christ.)

My general comments in Post #93 pertained to the widespread misuse of Scripture in support of Post-Nicene and therefore Post-Apostolic doctrines – misuse by the imposition of retrofitted meanings, misuse by the quoting of verses out of context, misuse by the ignoring of inconvenient passages, and misuse by the making of unsubstantiated (and unsubstantiatable) claims about the existence of supporting Scripture (especially mass existence).

That gets my proverbial goat. (I don’t own a real one.)

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Their value was acknowledged in Post #93.



It’s really up to Arsenios plus anyone else who might like to chip in on MoreCoffee’s behalf (with MoreCoffees’ acquiescence, of course; MoreCoffee made the “hundreds” claim originally). “The more the merrier” could be appropriate in this case.

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What a gracious post, you scruffy Old Goat lover!

Just for that, ya gotta now BEG me to be MEAN to you!

Take THAT and SUFFER!!!

Arsenios - The Goats-bearder!

 

[pinacled]

Lazarus still had to come forth and move his legs. No he didn't work that himself, but he did it.

Faith comes by hearing.
Ears first.

What power the Lord's Word is in Life giving Grace.
That even the dead hear.

 

[Pedrito]

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In Post #85, MoreCoffee stated that there were “hundreds of passage in the holy scriptures” in which it is evident that “choosing to follow Christ is open as an option just as choosing not to follow Christ is an option open to people”.

In Post #88, for sake of consistency on my part, I requested that he supply at least two dozen of those claimed hundreds, in line with my former requests to other specific Posters for lists of verses that they claimed existaed.

In reply to that, Mennosota in Post #89 said:

Here's my summary of Mr Equals Sign :
MC provides the "equal" number of verses for humans choosing both God and rejection of God that other posters have shared regarding God choosing humans and keeping humans unto himself.
Is that an accurate summary?

While that’s not quite what I had in mind, it is a good and fair idea. I would propose “equal” + 1, however.

Following that line of thought, I have two suggestions.

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Firstly, I suggest that the scattered verses referred to in Post #89 be consolidated into a single Post in this thread. That will achieve the following:
- Readers will be able to directly compare those verses with the ones to be supplied by MoreCoffee;
- There will be an identifiable and inarguable target figure that MoreCoffee has to match;
- Readers and MoreCoffee will know exactly what verses MennoSota was referring to.

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Continued...

 

[Pedrito]

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In Post #89, Mennosota suggested:

MC provides the "equal" number of verses for humans choosing both God and rejection of God that other posters have shared regarding God choosing humans and keeping humans unto himself.
Is that an accurate summary?

I thought that was a good idea, and suggested that the scattered verses referred to in Post #89 be consolidated into a single Post in this thread, and that that would achieve the following:
- Readers will be able to directly compare those verses with the ones to be supplied by MoreCoffee;
- There will be an identifiable and inarguable target figure that MoreCoffee has to match;
- Readers and MoreCoffee will know exactly what verses MennoSota was referring to.

Nothing has come of that yet.

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I understand that rummaging through Post after Post (especially if encompassing a number of threads) can be burdensome. (I have done it myself once or twice.) So I have another thought. The “other posters” can come to Mennosota’s aid.

I suggest that the “other posters” referred to by MennoSota (other than himself), PM MennoSota personally, and supply the verse references they have tendered over time, together with the Post Number and Thread Title in which each set of those references was posted.

After a week or two, MennoSota can consolidate the information (list the details) from each of the PM’s he has received (plus his own past contributions), into the requested single Post that would be so helpful.

Who would like to help him?

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[Arsenios]

Who would like to help him [Menno]?

I should think that he would ask for such help himself...

Absent such a request, such "help" would be presumptuous, would it not?

Arsenios