Explain eveangelists to me or even the need for God to work through people spreading the gospel if I am to accept your position, seems like a waste according to you yet I know it works and many get saved because of it and what does he do but convict with the Word and lead people to salvation, ( yes it is the Holy Spirit that convicts and urges one to accept)
Because God uses MEANS (typically) in order to perform the miracle. Jesus once used a spit ball as a tool to perform the miracle of healing.... does Jesus using a spit ball mean that ergo no miracle happened, there's no Gospel or grace here just the mans' obedience to the Law? Does it mean the man caused himself to be healed? No, it just means that SOMETIMES Jesus uses means in which to perform His miracle of giving "the free gift of faith lest any should boast."
I believe that Lazarus was RAISED to life (the verb in the text is entirely passive on his part, entirely active on Jesus' part..... Yes Jesus did this FOR Lazarus, who was entirely passive). Jesus didn't use a spit all here but he might have. John the Baptist believed before he was even born, but I don't know that God used any means..... Mary conceived a Son but I doubt any means were used..... But your point, Bill, is correct. NORMALLY, God uses means. But is it the spit ball that caused the healing of that man born blind or Jesus USING it?
YES, obviously, we ARE commanded to go and make disciples (which suggests God can - and does - use us as means). We are to BAPTIZE and TEACH. Does God USE the water and the Word as tools to perform His miracle, His act of pure grace, His FREE GIFT? Nearly always. Does that mean that the one who DEAD but gives permission to baptize him or speak to him about Jesus is actually the savior of himself by what he did for himself? I don't believe so.
Like Jesus with Nicodemus, I need to use earthly things here. But I likely was conceived around April 23, 1987 and thus was GIVEN life then. GIVEN. GRACE. FREE GIFT lest any should boast. There is a LIFE GIVER.... giver. Now, did God use some means? Yeah. I have parents. We all know what work they performed. But I still believe that GOD gave me life. I suspect you strongly disagree. I believe Lazarus was raised from the DEAD. Not because the dead can and do will themselves back to life (and so Jesus had nothing to do with his rising), I believe JESUS GAVE him life, Jesus rescued him, Jesus saved him. He didn't gain life because Lazarus - while dead - willed or decided or performed anything whatsoever. I believe Jesus did it. A miracle. Pure grace. I suspect you disagree.
AGAIN, of course, as I've posted countless time, obviously there is MUCH associated with justification (all important) I just don't believe the dead raise up THEMSELVES to life, I don't believe that Jesus doesn't really actually SAVE anyone but rather rewards their achievements, works, accomplishments, "hoop jumping" (still unclear how dead people DO anything - they don't believe in God, they don't think God even exists, they don't give a rip about God, they have NO life, NO relationship with God.... they are "dead in their tresspasses and sins" "no one can even say the words Jesus is Lord"). I think Jesus needs to rescue, give, perform a MIRACLE of rising from the DEAD.... save. Now.... a lot of things may RESULT from that: we may then hold that God does exist, we may want to repent, we may SAY what we NOW BELIEVE... but how does one who doesn't believe, who doesn't have life, who isn't rescued say "Jesus is my Savior?" when he's not and they don't yet believe in Jesus or even think he ever existed or give a rip if he did? Doesn't Jesus first CHANGE them, ENLIVEN them, GIVE them faith? DOn't they need to be SAVED and be a CHRISTIAN before they will believe and do the things only Christians believe and only Christian can believe?
Some here have claimed I'm being DENOMINATIONAL here, that this idea that Jesus does the saving, Jesus rescues us, Jesus gives us spritual life, Jesus changes our condition and relationship to God - that that's a radical and purely LUTHERAN thing. I don't think so. Why... I well recall being in a BAPTIST church, and the pastor issuing an ALTAR CALL and the BAPTIST preacher declaring that something like, "if your hands are sweety, if your heart is pounding, if you WANT to come up there - that's because you HAVE faith, the Holy Spirit has been given to you, Jesus has made you His own..... now come down here and dedicate your life and your future to him! Actually, I'm perfectly good with that. And that came from a BAPTIST at an ALTAR CALL, not some 'denominational Lutheran." Seems to me that BAPTIST would agree with me: Jesus IS the one and only, all sufficient, total SAVIOR who performs a MIRACLE (yes, often with means) and GIVES us life, faith, salvation..... WE don't save ourselves: not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever. Im pretty sure that Baptist preacher would AGREE with what Lamm and Tigger and Turtlehare and myself and others have been saying. SURE, there are MANY things our new conditions, our new life means that we do: Repent, confess, love, grow in righteousness, etc. I CAN see how some of the things in Scripture can be spun so as to deny the Gospel and deny that Jesus saves. But I think the misunderstanding largely vanishes when people start noticing the word is "and" and not "then." Is breathing an essential part of life? Yes. Does a dead person breathing cause them to come to life? No. Does God want all to breath? Yes. Does obeying him mean we thus come to life? No.
- Josiah
. Here is another. The woman with the issue of blood had faith that she could be healed by the Lord Jesus, but, until she acted on her faith, she was not healed. And Lord Jesus commended her faith.