Disciples and Believers

[Arsenios]

1. This thread is not about the Eucharist. For that, see https://christianityhaven.com/showt...an-quot-is-quot-Catholic-Lutheran-Evangelical

2. I detest subjecting the Word of God to one's (often wrong) modern concepts of physics, as if God is mandated to agree with some bloat's idea of physics who never took a single course in physics.

3. I tend to believe what Scripture says.... and since Jesus said "is" He likely meant "is" rather than "is NOT." It doesn't seem to be that Jesus COULD NOT have meant "is" since "is" seems to violate someone's assumptions. Correcting Jesus always seems a bit inappropriate to me. I tend to lean toward believing Jesus rather than correcting Him (seems wiser to ME).



.

What he said...

Thank-you...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

I am sorry you live in a world of slices and gulps in your thinking of God's Holy Words...

And I am sorry that in your carnal understanding, you trivialize their meaning...



Jesus is not subject to necessity - He did not NEED to die - He CHOSE to die...

You are Called to repentance from your sins...

The Breaking of the Bread was no ordinary breaking of bread...

The disciples on the Road only finally even RECOGNIZED Jesus in this Breaking of the Bread...

You are trivializing Holy Words, my Brother...

His Holy Body was BROKEN for you...

YOU are to PARTAKE of this brokenness of body...

So you are to EAT His Body...

The fact that He gave His Disciples His Body and Blood to eat and drink before His Death

Constituted His last Commandment to them prior to Him ascending the Cross...

"Be ye doing this in remembrance of Me..."


Arsenios

Be honest, you're sorry I don't ascribe to your works salvation that makes the cross irrelevant.

 

[Arsenios]

Be honest, you're sorry I don't ascribe to your works salvation that makes the cross irrelevant.

Taking up your cross is a work, my Brother...

I trust you not to lie to me...

Please return the courtesy...

For the Love of God...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Taking up your cross is a work, my Brother...

I trust you not to lie to me...

Please return the courtesy...

For the Love of God...


Arsenios

Arsenios, it seems you follow John the Baptist and yet need to know of the one who saves by grace through faith, apart from works.
The cross is no burden for the follower of Christ. In fact we count it all joy when we go through various trials.

 

[Andrew]

That would be the carnal understanding...

Not to mention drinking His Blood!

Here is the Biblical result:

Joh 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

A well numbered verse, I should perhaps add, yes?


Arsenios

Ah yes I love that verse because you can basically toss it into any discussion for any reason to make any point
Btw how does one remember someone they never seen? I mean I don't remember even being at that table..do you?

 

[Arsenios]

Ah yes I love that verse because you can basically toss it into any discussion for any reason to make any point
Btw how does one remember someone they never seen? I mean I don't remember even being at that table..do you?

The Remembrance is by the re-LIVING of the event...

By reliving the event, we participate in it...

Which is why Christ commands: "Be ye doing this..."

And in this doing He was recognized when He had not been so prior to doing it...

With the Disciples on the Road to Emmaeus...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios, it seems you follow John the Baptist and yet need to know of the one who saves by grace through faith, apart from works.
The cross is no burden for the follower of Christ. In fact we count it all joy when we go through various trials.

We follow Christ, and Christ's Baptism in the Waters of Regeneration...

As Christ commanded his Apostles to Baptize ALL the Nations...

Which Baptism do you follow?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

We follow Christ, and Christ's Baptism in the Waters of Regeneration...

As Christ commanded his Apostles to Baptize ALL the Nations...

Which Baptism do you follow?


Arsenios

Baptism doesn't regenerate. Jesus needed no regeneration when he was baptized. His baptism was symbolic.
I was immersed in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as a confession to witnesses that Jesus had redeemed me and the Holy Spirit had immersed me into Christ Jesus who is the head of the body of Christ.
All who follow Christ in water baptism must first confess they have been reconciled by God and immersed into Christ by the Spirit of God.

 

[Arsenios]

Baptism doesn't regenerate.

Titus 3:5 He hath saved us by the bathing of new birth...

Jesus needed no regeneration when he was baptized.

You are right - Baptism needed Christ's Baptism...

Because He was Baptized in Water, we are also Baptized in water into Him...

Had He not been Baptized in Water, then Baptism would be as you say, a mere human proclamation to a few witnesses...

Instead, we are Baptized into Christ by His Apostolic Body, the Church...

Christ did, you remember, command His Apostles to Baptize all the Nations, yes?

Did Christ EVER command the Holy Spirit to Baptize anyone?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Titus 3:5 He hath saved us by the bathing of new birth...



You are right - Baptism needed Christ's Baptism...

Because He was Baptized in Water, we are also Baptized in water into Him...

Had He not been Baptized in Water, then Baptism would be as you say, a mere human proclamation to a few witnesses...

Instead, we are Baptized into Christ by His Apostolic Body, the Church...

Christ did, you remember, command His Apostles to Baptize all the Nations, yes?

Did Christ EVER command the Holy Spirit to Baptize anyone?


Arsenios

You really need to quote the whole statement of Paul so you don't remain confused.
Titus 3:1-7
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Sorry, Arsenios, but your baptism only got you wet. It didn't save you. It's not a magical act performed by your priests that saves you. Your faith is terribly misplaced in water rather than in the shed blood of Christ.

 

[hedrick]

I think of a disciple as in effect an apprentice. Yes, they are learners, but learners with the specific goal of becoming the kind of people their master wants them to be. I wouldn't use the example of Judas to decide on the meaning of discipleship. Maybe he was false from the beginning, or maybe something went wrong. But there can be learners who fail or give up. To what extent God planned this is irrelevant to the topic of this discussion; it's going to depend upon aspects of our overall theology.*

In modern English a believer would be someone who beliefs a certain set of things. But the NT concept of believer is someone who believes what Jesus taught with the goal of putting it into practice. For practical purposes I think a disciple and a believer are the same people, but the term disciple emphasizes a bit more the ongoing learning or development.

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* For what it's worth, I take an intermediate view. I don't think God controls every event in our lives. There are too many places where the Bible says he changes his mind depending upon what people do. But I think he has overall plans, and is capable of bringing good out of failure.

 

[MennoSota]

In scripture a disciple is one who learns under a teacher. They do not necessarily believe as they learn, but ultimately they either come to faith in that teaching or they walk away to a new teacher.

 

[Arsenios]

You really need to quote the whole statement of Paul so you don't remain confused.
Titus 3:1-7
He saved us... by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

In scripture a disciple is one who learns under a teacher. They do not necessarily believe as they learn, but ultimately they either come to faith in that teaching or they walk away to a new teacher.

What then would be the difference between a disciple and a student?

A student learns what is taught and then either believes it or not...

What does a disciple do that is different?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

What then would be the difference between a disciple and a student?

A student learns what is taught and then either believes it or not...

What does a disciple do that is different?


Arsenios

They are synonymous in many ways.
1 Corinthians 3:1-6
But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.

 

[Arsenios]

They are synonymous in many ways.
1 Corinthians 3:1-6
But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.

Could it be, do you suppose, that the student studies and the disciple enters into the discipline?
The student knows ABOUT the subject matter in his mind...
And the disciple knows directly by the experience of doing?

Is the one an observer and the other a doer of the Word?

It has always been a hesitance I have had about the lecture of the sermon...

I like being coached on how to DO better, and not so much on how one set of ideas is superior to another...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Could it be, do you suppose, that the student studies and the disciple enters into the discipline?
The student knows ABOUT the subject matter in his mind...
And the disciple knows directly by the experience of doing?

Is the one an observer and the other a doer of the Word?

It has always been a hesitance I have had about the lecture of the sermon...

I like being coached on how to DO better, and not so much on how one set of ideas is superior to another...


Arsenios

It's both. If a student declares a major they discipline themselves toward that major, but they can always change majors.
There are many disciples of Christ Jesus who switched and walked away. Being a disciple does not mean they had faith in Christ Jesus. Faith is a gift that God gives to those whom God wills, purely by God's grace, apart from any meritorious works.

 

[Arsenios]

It's both.

eg Both learning and then doing...
So does the student learn from reading or lectures?
And does the disciple take action from instruction?

If a student declares a major they discipline themselves toward that major,
but they can always change majors.

Are you saying that the student's major is his discipleship?
So if you are in a Seminary you are a student, yes?
But if you major in 1600s Puritan Sermons, you are a disciple?

There are many disciples of Christ Jesus who switched and walked away.
Being a disciple does not mean they had faith in Christ Jesus.

Looks like I did not understand you...
Is a student and a disciple the same thing?
A disciple FOLLOWS the Master, yes?
Which involves in his being a good student...

A student masters the teachings of the master...
But does not necessarily follow him, yes?

A disciples tries to become as the Master is...
A student learns the material taught so it can be recited?

Faith is a gift that God gives to those whom God wills,
purely by God's grace, apart from any meritorious works.

Well, the disciples all left Christ when He told them they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, yes?
They were following Him up to this point...
Then they departed from Him, all of them, except the 12...
Yet many returned I think... The 70 "lesser Apostles" - Barnabus was one as I recall...
Yet this event established the 12 save Judas...
Nicodemos was never one of the 70 I think...
But he was a secret disciple, coming by night...
I am not sure how his discipleship turned out, are you?

But the question is this: Is a disciple necessarily a student?
Is a student necessarily a disciple?
And: Why? Or: Why not?

The Scripture singing to me is:
"Be ye doers of the Word...
And not hearers only..."

The Pharisees were all students of Christ, seeking to condemn Him...
His Disciples were disciples of Christ, seeking to become like Him...
The first heard and obeyed His Words...
The second heard without doing them...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

eg Both learning and then doing...
So does the student learn from reading or lectures?
And does the disciple take action from instruction?



Are you saying that the student's major is his discipleship?
So if you are in a Seminary you are a student, yes?
But if you major in 1600s Puritan Sermons, you are a disciple?



Looks like I did not understand you...
Is a student and a disciple the same thing?
A disciple FOLLOWS the Master, yes?
Which involves in his being a good student...

A student masters the teachings of the master...
But does not necessarily follow him, yes?

A disciples tries to become as the Master is...
A student learns the material taught so it can be recited?



Well, the disciples all left Christ when He told them they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, yes?
They were following Him up to this point...
Then they departed from Him, all of them, except the 12...
Yet many returned I think... The 70 "lesser Apostles" - Barnabus was one as I recall...
Yet this event established the 12 save Judas...
Nicodemos was never one of the 70 I think...
But he was a secret disciple, coming by night...
I am not sure how his discipleship turned out, are you?

But the question is this: Is a disciple necessarily a student?
Is a student necessarily a disciple?
And: Why? Or: Why not?


Arsenios

I'm saying that the disciple is not necessarily an adopted child of God.

 

[Arsenios]

I'm saying that the disciple is not necessarily an adopted child of God.

But the question is this: Is a disciple necessarily a student?
Is a student necessarily a disciple?
And: Why? Or: Why not?

Can one become an adopted child of God without being His student or disciple?

Judas failed...

Peter denied Him thrice...

John took His Mother to his home...


Arsenios