Did the ancient Pagan Religions get picked up as 'tradition'?

[Arsenios]

Here at CH we consider Catholics to be Christians.

Now you're talkin'!

Catholics ARE Christians...

Hobie strayed a tad...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

But you have to admit the fact that the whole system of worship, with the wood and stone idols and the rituals and sacraments etc.. are not from what Christ and the apostles gave to the early church, but are from another origin.

No, we do not...

You will find a world-wide uniformity of worship in ALL the Apostolic Churches...

They are all the same, Hobie...

You are arguing that Christ failed...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

While I dont agree with the Catholic religion I think if you sturdy jewish things you will find that a lot of their symbolism was from the jewish religion, not pagan

Exactly so - Christianity was legitimately, from the Jewish point of view, a Jewish Heresy...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The influence of pagan beliefs started long before the Roman Catholic Church. All we have to do is carefully examine the evolution of belief in "the devil".

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God yet in Job Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney, an unwelcome character but not an evil one. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:”7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

Poppycock, Hogwash and Phooey!

A

 

[Arsenios]

Was that in Mexico bychance? They don't do that at any of the Catholic churches I've attended in the United States.

Sounds more like Rio...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I don't think I would consider them anything else, but you then like any church you have to examine the origins of their doctrines.

Then you need to respect them here as Christians, and not disparage their claim as Christians...

The Church at Rome is an Apostolic Church...

You have been disrespectful...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

FYI:
Eostre was an Anglo-Saxon mythical figure said to have been the goddess of the sunrise and the spring and the Teutonic goddess of the dawn. The direction of the sunrise, East, is named for her. Eastre is believed to be an ancient word for spring. The Frankish church (Germans who settled in Rome during the fifth century), used the word alba, which means white (the color of the robes worn during the resurrection festival) to describe their celebration of Christ's resurrection. Alba (Latin) also meant sunrise. So when the name of the festival was translated into German, the sunrise meaning, ostern, was selected, likely in error. One theory is that Ostern (related to Eostre = east and Eastre = spring) is the origin of the word Easter.

While pagans celebrated the rites of spring, the Jews celebrated Passover, the anniversary of the day God delivered them out of Egyptian bondage. Pesach is the Hebrew word for Passover. Its position in the Jewish calendar coincidentally corresponds to the beginning of Spring.

The Eastern Orthodox Church calls the Resurrection Service "Pascha"...

I used to think Easter and Estrogen were connected via Fertility -

Now I am not so sure...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Is it wrong that they took them and Christianized them?

Now THERE is the RIGHT question!

Thanks George!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

No. It's not wrong and it doesn't mean that they're still Pagan.

Christianizing pagans is a good thing...

Or we could just kill them???

I mean, c'mon!



Arsenios

 

[hobie]

Christianizing pagans is a good thing...

Or we could just kill them???

I mean, c'mon!



Arsenios

Well lets take a closer look. Here is from Wikipedia:

"The Pontifex Maximus (Latin, literally: "greatest pontiff" or "greatest bridge-builder") was the high priest of the College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) in ancient Rome. This was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion, open only to patricians until 254 BC, when a plebeian first occupied this post. ,,,The word "pontifex" later became a term used for Christian bishops,[5] including the Bishop of Rome,[6] and the title of "Pontifex Maximus" was applied within the Roman Catholic Church to the Pope as its chief bishop and appears on buildings, monuments and coins of popes of Renaissance and modern times."

So what was the Collegium Pontificum? We read on in Wikipedia "The College of Pontiffs (Latin: Collegium Pontificum; see collegium) was a body of the ancient Roman state whose members were the highest-ranking priests of the state religion....The College of Pontiffs was one of the four major priestly colleges, the others being of the augurs (who read omens), the quindecimviri sacris faciundis ("fifteen men who carry out the rites"), and the Epulones (who set up feasts at festivals)."

The present-day college of cardinals with the Pope at the head is identical to the college of pontiffs from Babylon and Ancient pagan Rome with the Pontifex Maximus at the head. So the ancient Pagan religion all the way from Babylon were incorporated into Papal Rome through symbols, rituals, and ceremonies. We see the Roman clergy wear the same vestments of the priests of Dagon, the fish-god. We read of the pagan god Dagon in scripture, 1 Samuel 5:

1 And the Philistines took the ark of God, and brought it from Ebenezer unto Ashdod.2 When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon.3 And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the earth before the ark of the Lord. And they took Dagon, and set him in his place again.4 And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the Lord; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him.5 Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagon's house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod unto this day.6 But the hand of the Lord was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods, even Ashdod and the coasts thereof.7 And when the men of Ashdod saw that it was so, they said, The ark of the God of Israel shall not abide with us: for his hand is sore upon us, and upon Dagon our god.

The fish-head mitre, worn by bishops and popes is also the same as the ancient mitre used by the priesthood of Babylon.

Now this is interesting on how the names were changed...

"What actually happened was the name “Christianity” was given to the pagan Babylonian mystery religion with but a few necessary changes. The temples became the churches, the priests and nuns became the leaders of Christianity. The statues and festivals were given new names, but it was the same system with a new name. Only the names were changed to deceive the innocent. Astarte or Cybele became Mary, and Tammuz, Baal or Bacchus became Jesus, etc."https://bible.org/seriespage/babylon-seen-scripture-introduction-rev-17-18

 

[Lamb]

This thread has been moved to the World Religion & Speculative Theology forum.

 

[pinacled]

Looking into the history of the rites of the ancient pagan religion in Rome, the rites were performed and controlled by a number of different priestly collegia and other special priests and magistrates. The priestly organizations were many "independent" priests of various cults who bore the title sacerdos. There were pagan beliefs and forms of worship that came in and were picked up and developed a priesthood and became strong in Rome such as the such as the 'Mysteries of Mithras' or sun worship originating from ancient Babylon, and they were 'traditions of man' to be sure.

If you look into church history you will also find what is called the Disciplina Arcani or Discipline of the Secret or Discipline of the Arcane, which was a restriction imposing silence upon Christians with respect to their rites and doctrines. It was a theological term used to describe the 'tradition' or custom which came in and prevailed in the church, whereby knowledge of the more 'intimate mysteries' of the Christian religion was carefully kept from the Christians or others. It is a "theological term used to express the custom which prevailed in the earliest ages of the Church, by which the knowledge of the more intimate mysteries of the Christian religion was carefully kept from the heathen and even from those who were undergoing instruction in the Faith. The custom itself is beyond dispute."

Now lets check the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Discipline of the Secret (Catholic Encyclopedia), Discipline of the Secret (Latin Disciplina Arcani ):

There are many other "unwritten mysteries of the Church," says St. Basilc (and they are not scriptural.) According to St. Basil, they come from a "silent" and "private" tradition: [From the silent and mystical tradition, from the unpublic and ineffable teaching]. This "silent" and "mystical" tradition, "which has not been made public," is not an esoteric doctrine, reserved for some particular elite. The "elite" was the Church. In fact, "tradition" to which St. Basil appeals, is the liturgical practice of the Church. St. Basil is referring here to what is now denoted as disciplina arcani [The discipline of secrecy].

These 'traditions' of the church can easily be traced to the ancient pagan religion in Babylon such as the Collegium Pontificum in Rome, which had the priests who served the public rites of the State religion and controlled both the public rites and the priesthoods themselves. Its leader was the supreme Pontiff who acted as the speaker for the Collegium Pontificum, and oversaw the various priesthoods and the Comitia Curiata and the Vestals. The Flamines were the priest orders that served specific deities such as the Flamen Dialis (priests of Jupiter), the Flamen Martialis (priests of Mars) among the many orders.

The flamens were priests in charge of fifteen official cults of Roman religion, each assigned to a particular god. The three major flamens (flamines maiores) were the Flamen Dialis, the high priest of Jupiter; the Flamen Martialis, who cultivated Mars; and the Flamen Quirinalis, devoted to Quirinus. The deities cultivated by the twelve flamines minores were Carmenta, Ceres, Falacer, Flora, Furrina, Palatua, Pomona, Portunus, Volcanus (Vulcan), Volturnus, and two whose names are lost. Now we see were the orders of the priests came from..

The Vestal Virgins were the only female members of the college. Now we see where the nuns came from...

Greco/Roman gentiles had no such order of priest.
They had philosophical schools of thought and a hierarchy caste system of government that reflected their pantheon of false deities.
Which is a facsimile of Egypt's style of oppressing the poor.

 

[pinacled]

occultation occurred when the leaders of the greco/romon empire where defeated by the selflessness of Those who would not worship nor swear oaths to their oppressors.

The filth of sorcerors who lie about history will be swept away with a winnowing fan.

 

[Albion]

Greco/Roman gentiles had no such order of priest.
They had philosophical schools of thought and a hierarchy caste system of government that reflected their pantheon of false deities.

Actually, the Romans had all sorts of religions and a wide variety of priests.

 

[Andrew]

Actually, the Romans had all sorts of religions and a wide variety of priests.

Mystery religion priests, I'm sure Mythra had a hierarchy priesthood being part of the state religion for some time

 

[pinacled]

Actually, the Romans had all sorts of religions and a wide variety of priests.

The conquered nations of peoples who were considered Roman citizens may of had many cultural customs and traditions that is described as religion by some.
But the Roman government was firstly structured by astronomical calendrical order..Hence the pantheon and wandering stars(planets that were apart of their calculations.
They also had municipal branches within their government. Very similar to how the Amircan government is structured.

Propaganda warfare is also one of the Greco/Roman tactics to ensure the assimilation of conquered or annexed nations and the indenginous peoples.
Smear and slander the peoples culture until a few generations have passed so that all history of an indenginous cultures tradition and history is forgotten.

Sorcerors lie about .....history"

Take for example how the indigenous people of the Americas have been misrepresented as savages.

Sad,

 

[Albion]

The conquered nations of peoples who were considered Roman citizens may of had many cultural customs and traditions that is described as religion by some.

The Romans allowed many religions to operate among their own people, and many of them had priests.

 

[pinacled]

The Romans allowed many religions to operate among their own people, and many of them had priests.

If by priest you mean philosophical teachers.
Sure.
But in Truth,
Their is only One True Vine and Rod to govern the Faithfull.

Blessings Always

 

[Andrew]

If by priest you mean philosophical teachers.
Sure.
But in Truth,
Their is only One True Vine and Rod to govern the Faithfull.

Blessings Always

They were considered priests, Egypt had them and even the Druids, they consistently practised divination and esoteric mysteries meaning you had to be initiated into the religion (this may be where your 'philosophers' come in)

 

[pinacled]

They were considered priests, Egypt had them and even the Druids, they consistently practised divination and esoteric mysteries meaning you had to be initiated into the religion (this may be where your 'philosophers' come in)

There were liberal arts and psycological schools of course.
Which was a break down of communal oppression.
Social engineering is another old tact.

The Greco/Romans assimilated the taxation system to maintain their caste system. And when the eventuality of losing against the disciples of Yeshua. A decision to occult(assimilate their taxation efforts into a form of a tithe.
A form still used till this era of governing.
It wasn't till after murdering The savior with a corrupt praetorium form of vote a certain order of priest was constructed similar to an infrastructure of trade they already had.

Keep up youngin