Christ died for them not appointed to Wrath.

[BruceLeiter]

Calvin says God has both a revealed Will, and a "secret" Will.

His revealed Will is that everyone, everywhere, even the wicked, would come to repentance and be saved - His secret Will however, is that only a small percentage of those people will ever be able to come to repentance, because God Himself will not enable the unelected to believe the gospel, but will instead keep them blinded to it.

To me that indicates that the God of Calvin is a God who deceives his own creatures by seemingly offering hope to all, when in reality that hope is accessible to only a few, but, what do I know... indeed, what does ANYONE know, including Calvin and brightflame and anyone else.

I choose to trust in a much bigger, much grander God, whose character is defined by honesty, integrity, and everlasting love, a God of hope, who would never deceive anyone, especially about the hope of salvation.

God hates a liar. Does God then hate Himself? Nah, don't think so.

Show me the source of Calvin's writing that says what you say he says, fuddy. Or is it something you heard someone say that he says. I spent a whole semester reading and studying the Institutes under a Calvin scholar and never heard such a distinction. Where did you find it, and what is its context?

 

[brightfame52]

in I Thessalonians, Paul joins the two doctrines together thus: “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, (as others) but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”(5:9). In II Thessalonians, he again joins the two together in an extensive context covering the whole of chapter 2. Of the reprobate, he declares the “man of sin” the “son of perdition” would deceive the reprobate saying: “ . .. and for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (Verses 11-12), and: “But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the TRUTH: whereunto HE CALLED YOU by our gospel, to obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (verses 13-14). Thus, there is no escaping the truth of both election and reprobation. by scp

God has purposely sent the reprobate a strong delusion to believe a lie, that they may be damned ! Christ didn't die for such whom God is set against them believing the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus. 6

 

[fuddy]

Secret Providence article 7th is I think is one place he writes about it but surely you're aware of the well-known Calvinist precept of Gods revealed will as opposed to his hidden will. It's a basic thing of Calvinism.
Calvin defends it by declaring that we have no right to dare to question Gods sovereign will as His ways and thoughts are incalculably higher than ours, and He has every right to dispense His will however it pleases Him.
Which of course is true, but the idea that He would dispense destruction on some and life to others by His decree alone -while professing hope of life as if it were for all- is, to humanity, a deception.

Proclaiming Hope for all........................... But, secretly, withholding it from most.

That would be like a father locking his 12 kids in their rooms and setting his house on fire, then running through the house crying out loudly "I'm coming to save you all!!!" ,but as he runs he only unlocks 2 of the doors, dooming the other 10.

Huh???

 

[brightfame52]

Being chosen to Salvation and appointed to wrath everlastingly, are things resolved and established by God before the foundation of the world, before we could do any good or evil Rom 9:11, because this resolution was before anything was created. God according to His Eternal resolutions for us, made us either to be vessels of mercy, to experience His saving mercy or made us to experience His justice and eternal wrath Rom 9:20-23 !

 

[BruceLeiter]

in I Thessalonians, Paul joins the two doctrines together thus: “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, (as others) but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”(5:9). In II Thessalonians, he again joins the two together in an extensive context covering the whole of chapter 2. Of the reprobate, he declares the “man of sin” the “son of perdition” would deceive the reprobate saying: “ . .. and for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (Verses 11-12), and: “But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the TRUTH: whereunto HE CALLED YOU by our gospel, to obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (verses 13-14). Thus, there is no escaping the truth of both election and reprobation. by scp

God has purposely sent the reprobate a strong delusion to believe a lie, that they may be damned ! Christ didn't die for such whom God is set against them believing the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus. 6

brightfame52, why do you add the words in parentheses (as others) after wrath to 1 Thessalonians 5:9? Doesn't the Bible warn us not to add to it?

1Th 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.

It says that we aren't reprobated but doesn't say that everyone else is. I prefer to think based on Scripture that God chose all believers before creation and passed by unbelievers permitting them to have their own lifelong self-centered ways. Otherwise, God can be accused of causing their evil self-centeredness, which would make him the author of sin, which can never be.

 

[brightfame52]

@BruceLeiter

brightfame52, why do you add the words in parentheses (as others) after wrath to 1 Thessalonians 5:9?

For clarification, if God hasn't appointed the elect to wrath, then there obviously are others He did appoint to wrath.

 

[brightfame52]

Mal 1:1-4

The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.

2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever.

There is a people against whom the Lord hath indignation, and that for ever: that the Lord never loved them, never intended to save them, and has made no provision for them; they are appointed not unto salvation, but unto condemnation.

These people whom God hates and appoints to wrath, He created them vessels of wrath and fits them for His just everlasting indignation ! 7

 

[BruceLeiter]

Mal 1:1-4

The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.

2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever.

There is a people against whom the Lord hath indignation, and that for ever: that the Lord never loved them, never intended to save them, and has made no provision for them; they are appointed not unto salvation, but unto condemnation.

These people whom God hates and appoints to wrath, He created them vessels of wrath and fits them for His just everlasting indignation ! 7

Your conclusion that "He created them vessels of wrath" is not supported by the text, brightfame52! What is wrong with the interpretation that before creation God chose believers but passed by unbelievers, who go to hell because of their stubborn rebellion, thus allowing for human responsibility?

 

[brightfame52]

Your conclusion that "He created them vessels of wrath" is not supported by the text, brightfame52! What is wrong with the interpretation that before creation God chose believers but passed by unbelievers, who go to hell because of their stubborn rebellion, thus allowing for human responsibility?

Yes it is, you cant see it, thats not my problem.

 

[brightfame52]

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep!” What do those words mean? Jn 10:26

There are goats as well as sheep in this world. Matt 25

There are reprobates as well as elect sinners among Adam’s fallen sons and daughters. Rom 11

There are vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy in this world. Rom 9; 1 Thess 5 f

 

[BruceLeiter]

Yes it is, you cant see it, thats not my problem.

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep!” What do those words mean? Jn 10:26

There are goats as well as sheep in this world. Matt 25

There are reprobates as well as elect sinners among Adam’s fallen sons and daughters. Rom 11

There are vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy in this world. Rom 9; 1 Thess 5 f

We are all on our way to hell when we're born, but God has chosen some to be rescued, but he passes by others. He doesn't create them to be fallen; they do it to themselves.

 

[brightfame52]

We are all on our way to hell when we're born, but God has chosen some to be rescued, but he passes by others. He doesn't create them to be fallen; they do it to themselves.

False, those who were created as vessels of mercy, were never on their way to hell, saving mercy was always their portion for their sins

 

[BruceLeiter]

False, those who were created as vessels of mercy, were never on their way to hell, saving mercy was always their portion for their sins

Yes, but I was referring to the fact that God doesn't rescue them at birth; he did it for me at the age of 16.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, but I was referring to the fact that God doesn't rescue them at birth; he did it for me at the age of 16.

No comment, Im just saying the vessels of mercy were always destined for mercy for their sins

 

[SetFree]

1 Thess 5:9-10

. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

I believe this means that the ones appointed to wrath, Christ didnt die for them. Who are they appointed to wrath ? Romans 9 tells us,

Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word to make poieō is a verb that has to do with to create.

Its the same word Jesus speaks Matt 19:4

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And we know this refers back to creation Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

So God made some men as vessels of dishonor. The word dishonor atimia means:

dishonour, ignominy, disgrace dishonour (4x), vile (1x), shame (1x), reproach (1x).

In the last day the vessels of wrath will be raised unto shame/contempt and wrath Dan 12:2

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Job speaks of the wicked reserved unto the day of wrath

Job 21:30


that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Now these men Christ did not die for, for what reason would He since He made them for the day of wrath for their sins, they are appointed to it.

BUT those who were made vessels of Mercy, God did not appoint them to wrath, but conversely for them to obtain Salvation. How ? Through the Lord Jesus Christ who died for them.

You just need to study more of your Bible and don't dwell on that idea of wrath until you properly understand for what time the actual destruction of the wicked will be.

Did you even bother to read the first part of that 1 Thessalonians 5:1-8 Scripture by Apostle Paul?

Paul is pointing to events that will happen on the "day of the Lord", which is the last day of this present world when Jesus returns. Paul was pulling from the Old Testament prophets about that event when the deceived and wicked will be saying, "Peace and safety", and then a "sudden destruction" will come upon them.

What did Apostle Peter show will occur on that "day of the Lord" per 2 Peter 3:10? He showed that God's "consuming fire" is going to burn man's works off this earth. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul said that all alive will be "changed" "at the twinkling of an eye" on that "last trump". That coincides with the prophecy in Isaiah 25 about God removing the flesh veil of this present world time, for ALL... peoples.

Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 the body type of the world to come will be a 'spirit' body. Rev.20 and Zech.14 reveals the wicked will still exist after Christ's future return, thus it is a mistake to think that all souls of the wicked will be suddenly destroyed on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns.

Rev.20 reveals all the unsaved will still be subject to the "second death", which is NOT about another flesh death. It is a death of one's spirit-soul cast into the future "lake of fire" AFTER God's Great White Throne Judgment after Christ's "thousand years" reign of the future.

All of those Bible Scripture events must... be accounted for when understanding what God's Wrath is that Paul was pointing to in 1 Thess.5:9. And God's Wrath on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns on the 7th Vial is the 'specific' Wrath Paul was pointing to, NOT the previous 6 Vials of Revelation that occur prior to Christ's future return.

 

[brightfame52]

You just need to study more of your Bible and don't dwell on that idea of wrath until you properly understand for what time the actual destruction of the wicked will be.

Did you even bother to read the first part of that 1 Thessalonians 5:1-8 Scripture by Apostle Paul?

Paul is pointing to events that will happen on the "day of the Lord", which is the last day of this present world when Jesus returns. Paul was pulling from the Old Testament prophets about that event when the deceived and wicked will be saying, "Peace and safety", and then a "sudden destruction" will come upon them.

What did Apostle Peter show will occur on that "day of the Lord" per 2 Peter 3:10? He showed that God's "consuming fire" is going to burn man's works off this earth. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul said that all alive will be "changed" "at the twinkling of an eye" on that "last trump". That coincides with the prophecy in Isaiah 25 about God removing the flesh veil of this present world time, for ALL... peoples.

Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 the body type of the world to come will be a 'spirit' body. Rev.20 and Zech.14 reveals the wicked will still exist after Christ's future return, thus it is a mistake to think that all souls of the wicked will be suddenly destroyed on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns.

Rev.20 reveals all the unsaved will still be subject to the "second death", which is NOT about another flesh death. It is a death of one's spirit-soul cast into the future "lake of fire" AFTER God's Great White Throne Judgment after Christ's "thousand years" reign of the future.

All of those Bible Scripture events must... be accounted for when understanding what God's Wrath is that Paul was pointing to in 1 Thess.5:9. And God's Wrath on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns on the 7th Vial is the 'specific' Wrath Paul was pointing to, NOT the previous 6 Vials of Revelation that occur prior to Christ's future return.

You need to take heed !

 

[SetFree]

I don't want to offend those deceived by man's false pre-trib rapture theory, but it's very difficult for those to not... act offended when one tries to help them recognize the actual Word of God vs. man's word.

 

[BruceLeiter]

You just need to study more of your Bible and don't dwell on that idea of wrath until you properly understand for what time the actual destruction of the wicked will be.

Did you even bother to read the first part of that 1 Thessalonians 5:1-8 Scripture by Apostle Paul?

Paul is pointing to events that will happen on the "day of the Lord", which is the last day of this present world when Jesus returns. Paul was pulling from the Old Testament prophets about that event when the deceived and wicked will be saying, "Peace and safety", and then a "sudden destruction" will come upon them.

What did Apostle Peter show will occur on that "day of the Lord" per 2 Peter 3:10? He showed that God's "consuming fire" is going to burn man's works off this earth. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul said that all alive will be "changed" "at the twinkling of an eye" on that "last trump". That coincides with the prophecy in Isaiah 25 about God removing the flesh veil of this present world time, for ALL... peoples.

Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 the body type of the world to come will be a 'spirit' body. Rev.20 and Zech.14 reveals the wicked will still exist after Christ's future return, thus it is a mistake to think that all souls of the wicked will be suddenly destroyed on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns.

Rev.20 reveals all the unsaved will still be subject to the "second death", which is NOT about another flesh death. It is a death of one's spirit-soul cast into the future "lake of fire" AFTER God's Great White Throne Judgment after Christ's "thousand years" reign of the future.

All of those Bible Scripture events must... be accounted for when understanding what God's Wrath is that Paul was pointing to in 1 Thess.5:9. And God's Wrath on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns on the 7th Vial is the 'specific' Wrath Paul was pointing to, NOT the previous 6 Vials of Revelation that occur prior to Christ's future return.

I wouldn't be so certain about your interpretation of the "day of the Lord," if I were you, SetFree. I lean toward one interpretation, but I'm also a "pan-millennialist"--it'll all pan out!!

 

[SetFree]

I wouldn't be so certain about your interpretation of the "day of the Lord," if I were you, SetFree. I lean toward one interpretation, but I'm also a "pan-millennialist"--it'll all pan out!!

You just described one of the main reasons why I am here on this Forum.

When we become a 'workman' in God's Word, like Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to do per 2 Timothy 2:15, the reason for doing that is so as to be approved of God, and thus be a workman that need not be ashamed...

2 Tim 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV

That idea of being found naked and in shame is a warning Lord Jesus gave the Church in Rev.16:15 and Rev.3:18. It is hinted at by Apostle Paul also, and in Rev.6, and in the OT prophets.

Jesus gave that warning in connection with the day of His future coming, on that "day of the Lord". That is why He said that He comes "as a thief" in that Rev.16:15 Scripture. Do you recall that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.5 that "the day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night"? and that Peter taught that also in 2 Peter 3:10?

So YES! I am certain that I know what God's Word is telling us, and that is what becoming a 'workman' in His Word does; it helps dispel all the untempered mortar walls of men's doctrines that are going to be washed away on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns.

 

[BruceLeiter]

You just described one of the main reasons why I am here on this Forum.

When we become a 'workman' in God's Word, like Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to do per 2 Timothy 2:15, the reason for doing that is so as to be approved of God, and thus be a workman that need not be ashamed...

2 Tim 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV

That idea of being found naked and in shame is a warning Lord Jesus gave the Church in Rev.16:15 and Rev.3:18. It is hinted at by Apostle Paul also, and in Rev.6, and in the OT prophets.

Jesus gave that warning in connection with the day of His future coming, on that "day of the Lord". That is why He said that He comes "as a thief" in that Rev.16:15 Scripture. Do you recall that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.5 that "the day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night"? and that Peter taught that also in 2 Peter 3:10?

So YES! I am certain that I know what God's Word is telling us, and that is what becoming a 'workman' in His Word does; it helps dispel all the untempered mortar walls of men's doctrines that are going to be washed away on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns.

It depends on what parts of the Bible you are talking about, @SetFree. When we talk about the teaching and historical passages, our study should come to the same conclusions, and we can learn from each other.

However, prophetic passages about the future and unique ones are open to different interpretations that we should agree to disagree on. For example, when we reached Revelation in seminary with our New Testament professor, he described five major interpretations of that book. I read the book in the light of each one and arrived at one of them, but I also subscribe to the fact that it's very difficult to interpret prophecies correctly until they are fulfilled. So, I hold onto my interpretation very loosely, because all of them have their problems.

By the way, I was a pastor in seven churches for 27 years studying and then preaching God's Word twice on Sundays. Since my retirement from church ministry for the past 16 years, I have been writing Christian books, including several Bible studies. So, I
have been studying God's Word from its own viewpoint.